Maniac Jack
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Posts posted by Maniac Jack
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Allright, time to humble myself.
Cobra is completely 100% right on this one. In the face of logic, I can't argue. It seems I've pulled a "Chicken Little" on this one and stirred up a shit-storm.
To tell y'all the truth, I use recoil buffers in most of my AKs, and it seems that my .223 and x39 guns don't seem to really need a recoil buffer. But they probably wouldn't suffer from having I thin one to suck up the slop of the bolt carrier. And now that I think of it logically, if you do want to test your gun, like its been said before, try putting some masking tape on the rear trunnion and firing it. If its obvious that the bolt carrier is hitting the rear trunnion, try replacing the recoil spring, or try getting a thin recoil buffer like the ones from BlackJack. Or do both! Get a new spring, AND a BlackJack buffer. I've always run the thin BlackJack green ones. They're affordable, and hey, it stimulates the economy!
In fact, after going over all my guns, I realize that I've never used a recoil buffer in my Saiga-12, but it's the one gun I own that needs one the most. I've run every kind of bird shot, buck shot and slug through that baby, and after actually looking at the rear trunnion compared to my other guns, it looks like I took a roofing hammer to it. Even the rear trunnion on my old SAR-1 that's had 10,000+ rounds through it doesn't look as bad. So, I'll be putting a buffer in my '12, and I'd deffinitely recommend a buffer for your Saiga 12, or your 20 or 410.
As far as being wary of the rear trunnion comming apart because of an extra quarter-inch of soft rubber between the back of the gun and the bolt carrier, forget about it! These rifles are made it RUSSIA, with hard Russian steel. Have you looked at the rear trunnion of your Saigas lately? Look at the thickness of the receiver. Now look at the rivets that go through the reciver and into the rear trunnion, holding it in place. Those damn rivets are pounded in there so tight, they make that heavy Russian steel bend inward toward the center of the rivet. Now that is solid construction. That is a Kalashnikov. These rifles were made by Izhmash, for Chrissakes! You might expect rivets to pop out and shear off in some poopy Romanian rifle, but not these. These rifles are solid Russian weaponry.
So, in essence, this is what my original post should have been about, sifting the truth out of the bullshit, and coming to a logical and educated conclusion about recoil buffers:
1.) Recoil buffers definitely help in a Saiga 12, 20 or 410.
2.) They do not help any in an HK91/G3/CETME (Those aren't even AKs, but thanks anyway for the info nalioth).
3.) In every other AK-based rifle, it is a personal preference. Some rifles will need 'em, some may not. Its all up to you.
Sorry for creating any unwanted panic or stress, and thanks for suffering through this episode of "The Sky Is Falling," starring Maniac Jack.
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POST UPDATED:
If you read this before, forget about it. I had a panic attack and thought I was Chicken Little for awhile. Explanation is as follows:
To tell y'all the truth, I use recoil buffers in most of my AKs, and it seems that my .223 and x39 guns don't seem to really need a recoil buffer. But they probably wouldn't suffer from having I thin one to suck up the slop of the bolt carrier. And now that I think of it logically, if you do want to test your gun, like its been said before, try putting some masking tape on the rear trunnion and firing it. If its obvious that the bolt carrier is hitting the rear trunnion, try replacing the recoil spring, or try getting a thin recoil buffer like the ones from BlackJack. Or do both! Get a new spring, AND a BlackJack buffer. I've always run the thin BlackJack green ones. They're affordable, and hey, it stimulates the economy!
In fact, after going over all my guns, I realize that I've never used a recoil buffer in my Saiga-12, but it's the one gun I own that needs one the most. I've run every kind of bird shot, buck shot and slug through that baby, and after actually looking at the rear trunnion compared to my other guns, it looks like I took a roofing hammer to it. Even the rear trunnion on my old SAR-1 that's had 10,000+ rounds through it doesn't look as bad. So, I'll be putting a buffer in my '12, and I'd deffinitely recommend a buffer for your Saiga 12, or your 20 or 410.
As far as being wary of the rear trunnion comming apart because of an extra quarter-inch of soft rubber between the back of the gun and the bolt carrier, forget about it! These rifles are made it RUSSIA, with hard Russian steel. Have you looked at the rear trunnion of your Saigas lately? Look at the thickness of the receiver. Now look at the rivets that go through the reciver and into the rear trunnion, holding it in place. Those damn rivets are pounded in there so tight, they make that heavy Russian steel bend inward toward the center of the rivet. Now that is solid construction. That is a Kalashnikov. These rifles were made by Izhmash, for Chrissakes! You might expect rivets to pop out and shear off in some poopy Romanian rifle, but not these. These rifles are solid Russian weaponry.
So, in essence, this is what my original post should have been about, sifting the truth out of the bullshit, and coming to a logical and educated conclusion about recoil buffers:
1.) Recoil buffers definitely help in a Saiga 12, 20 or 410.
2.) They do not help any in an HK91/G3/CETME (Those aren't even AKs, but thanks anyway for the info nalioth).
3.) In every other AK-based rifle, it is a personal preference. Some rifles will need 'em, some may not. Its all up to you.
Sorry for creating any unwanted panic or stress, and thanks for suffering through this episode of "The Sky Is Falling," starring Maniac Jack.
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Look at this as a Public Service Announcement
I don't know if this is a proper post, but here it is, from our very own Tech Section.
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=274
see how the bolt carrier never really slams, only lightly "touches" the rear of the receiver? In most cases it never even touches the rear of the receiver at all. That's why recoil buffers actually get in the way of the function of the bolt carrier, destroying the rear trunnion of an AK, loosening the rivets that hold it in place!
The evils of the recoil buffer!
Well I didn't find out this info until I checked this out, and I feel stupid, because I've been a member for awhile!
Just for the sake of fun and entertainment, here's a guy burning the wood off of his AK-47:
And here's a PSA about the Saiga-12!
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So none of y'all use recoil buffers? It sounded like those incidents were isolated to the CETME. I wouldn't think that a buffer in an AK would screw anything up. The only thing to ruin would be rivets holding the rear of the receiver together. But even then, the rear of the receiver gets more direct punishment of metal slamming against metal if there isn't a buffer.
What's the deal?
UPDATE 1:
I went here: http://www.thehighro...ad.php?t=284603
and here: http://www.surplusri...pic.php?t=31796
And I read dstorm1911's post about half-way down the page. Someone should notify people here on the board of the ineffectiveness of recoil buffers, if they don't know already.
In fact, if the info's correct, they aid the wearing and destruction of the rear trunnion and its rivets!
Wow! I am totally removing all the recoil buffers in my guns! 
Someone should make a sticky for this subject in every section.
UPDATE 2:
Allright, time to humble myself. It seems I've pulled a "Chicken Little" on this one.
To tell y'all the truth, I use recoil buffers in most of my AKs, and it seems that my .223 and x39 guns don't seem to really need a recoil buffer. But they probably wouldn't suffer from having I thin one to suck up the slop of the bolt carrier. And now that I think of it logically, if you do want to test your gun, like its been said before, try putting some masking tape on the rear trunnion and firing it. If its obvious that the bolt carrier is hitting the rear trunnion, try replacing the recoil spring, or try getting a thin recoil buffer like the ones from BlackJack. Or do both! Get a new spring, AND a BlackJack buffer. I've always run the thin BlackJack green ones. They're affordable, and hey, it stimulates the economy!
In fact, after going over all my guns, I realize that I've never used a recoil buffer in my Saiga-12, but it's the one gun I own that needs one the most. I've run every kind of bird shot, buck shot and slug through that baby, and after actually looking at the rear trunnion compared to my other guns, it looks like I took a roofing hammer to it. Even the rear trunnion on my old SAR-1 that's had 10,000+ rounds through it doesn't look as bad. So, I'll be putting a buffer in my '12, and I'd deffinitely recommend a buffer for your Saiga 12, or your 20 or 410.
As far as being wary of the rear trunnion comming apart because of an extra quarter-inch of soft rubber between the back of the gun and the bolt carrier, forget about it! These rifles are made it RUSSIA, with hard Russian steel. Have you looked at the rear trunnion of your Saigas lately? Look at the thickness of the receiver. Now look at the rivets that go through the reciver and into the rear trunnion, holding it in place. Those damn rivets are pounded in there so tight, they make that heavy Russian steel bend inward toward the center of the rivet. Now that is solid construction. That is a Kalashnikov. These rifles were made by Izhmash, for Chrissakes! You might expect rivets to pop out and shear off in some poopy Romanian rifle, but not these. These rifles are solid Russian weaponry.
So, in essence, this is what my original post should have been about, sifting the truth out of the bullshit, and coming to a logical and educated conclusion about recoil buffers:
1.) Recoil buffers definitely help in a Saiga 12, 20 or 410.
2.) They do not help any in an HK91/G3/CETME (Those aren't even AKs, but thanks anyway for the info nalioth).
3.) In every other AK-based rifle, it is a personal preference. Some rifles will need 'em, some may not. Its all up to you.
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I'm not kicking anyone around here either, but last time I went out, I was nailing pop cans at the hundred yard mark, one after the other, with my 16" S-.308. I was using South African surplus and Prvi Partizan .308 145grn. I guess those targets must have been from the entire day of shooting, perhaps? I hardly ever shoot paper, (mainly old TVs and computers that failed to agree with me) so I wouldn't have a clue what a good group is on paper.
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I've always gone through Gilbert's Guns https://www.gilbertsguns.com/
They seem to have good prices...
Also, Stanley's Pro Shop had some in, so you might want to check back periodically
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I ordered mine a few weeks ago, around the time I started posting in this thread. He said he only had a couple left then, and probably doesn't have any more now. In fact ArcFault has posted that very thing, just a few posts back. Good luck.
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Got my mag adapter in the mail today. +1 for Stanley.
I was fiddlin' with it, and it looks like welding the gap on the front lip and grinding to fit is do-able. I'll just need to get an AR mag to do some testing, and I'll be set.
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Ya, I was thinking about just modding the adapter to fit an un-cut magwell.
I figure, since an AR mag fits almost perfectly into an AK mag well, minus an adapter, that I could just weld up that gap in the front of the adapter and grind on it until it fits. As long as it locks in and an AR mag locks into that, it wouldn't matter if the whole top of the adapter was removed.
Good idea? Do-able, or what?
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That is some nice wallpaper. Your wife pick that out?
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Cool, I just ordered an adapter from Stanley. Said he's out on the West Coast, and won't ship 'til early March, but the check is in the mail.
As soon as I get the thing I'll have to pick up a Dremel set and some steel files and such. I can't believe I've gotten away this long doing conversions with only a hand drill and a bench grinder!
Anyway, I'll have to pick up a good quality AR mag - one with a solid follower. Anyone know where to get one that doesn't cost an arm and a testicle?
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Interesting, because I've alway had that problem with my EAA import S-12. The pin eventually moves out about halfway making the mag catch a little cockeyed. Even though its always done that, I've never had any problems locking in a magazine no matter where the pin is at. It's just always been a worry that I'll lose the pin at the range some day because of it!
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^I second that. If you just sit down with your rifle and get familiar with it, coupled with the right tools and info, and above all - patience, you should have no problem.
As far as parts go, you won't pay more than 100 bucks, cuz all you need really is a trigger group and a buttstock - both American made. Around 11/32 size drill bits will work to drill the bottom cover rivets, along with a center punch, a couple small screws and nuts, Loctite - High Strength (red), and a can of Duplicolor Hi-Heat w/ceramic matte black will get you where you want to go.
Seriously, man, just make a shopping list, gather the tools and supplies, and clear some time on a weekend (a full weekend) to do the conversion. All it will cost you is around 100 bucks and a little time a patience. No more than what you pay for one of those piece of crap WASRs that Romania has been producing these days.
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Yeah man, your best bet is to just file down your mag catch, install a bullet guide from Dinzag and use East Block or Chinese metal mags. They're like 12 bucks a piece and always work. Drop em, throw em, kick em, they'll work just fine.
Of course (or is it "coarse," I can never remember) if you started using foreign hi-cap mags, you'd be doin' the *lawful* thing by replacing at least 4 other parts to make it 922r compliant. You probably already knew that, I'm just saving my own ass from persecution by not giving incomplete advice.
Also, you could circumvent all that crap with money by buying a good quality steel reinforced mag.
cheers, pal
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That's like asking how often you brush your teeth!
Twice a day. No exceptions.
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WOW! They made the S-.223 in wood with a thumb hole stock? I've never seen that before. Way cool! That's a lot like the S-.308 ver 2's.
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I'm thinkin' about doin' this mod, but the only thing holding me back are those trunion rivets.
How far/how much did you have to grind the backsides of those rivets to get the adapter to fit?
It doesn't look like you had to grind much on the mag well or even the lugs for everything to hook up right.
Also, how well do Orlite Galil mags fit after the mod?
Gimme the scoop
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Question:
You just buy these things, pop 'em in the mag well, and voilla! you can use M16/AR15 mags?
I've already installed a bullet guide in my .223 Woul that get in the way of the mags or the adapter or both? Could I shave down the adapter so that I could use M16/AR15 mags and AK mags?
I am giddy with excitement, please cure my condition with information.
Nevermind, my trepidation is over. I read the connected posts.
Damn! I need to get me one of these adapters! Being able to use M16/AR15 mags is a must for conveinience as well as a SHTF situation.
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I can attest to the ammo, as I've only ever used military surplus - South African, and Australian.
I can also atttest to the SureFire 20 and 25 round mags. I've got a couple of each and they work flawlessly. I had had a lot of trouble with FBMG mags fitting way too loose in my guns, thus causing misfeeding, but the SureFire mags are an extremely secure and tight-fitting magazine.
Dude, I dig the bull-pup idea! I actually just recently got to fondle a Styre AUG at a gun shop, and I have to tell ya, the bull-pup design just feels right. I never made the connection to a bull-pup AK...
Hey! Wouldn't it be cool if say, the company that makes the plastic bull-pup stock for the 10/22 and Mini-14 were to see this and want to make one for the AK? Dude, you oughta patent this idea and sell it!
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Hey man, great lookin' gun. The wood is very cool. Well, this is just great. I go through 4 years of finding two Saiga .308's at the right price, learning how to convert them, buying the parts, doing the work, and lo and behold, now the ver2's are available!
It's almost like the gun gods are laughing at me
I didn't pay much more to convert my ver.1's than what they're askin' for the ver.2's, so it's not really about the cost. I guess its just a conveinience thing. At least I've got some AK 'smithing knowledge to show for it.The only downside of the ver2, I suspect, would be the inability to use regular stamped receiver AK stocks, and the availability of VEPR stocks. Even then, I suppose if you wanted the Dragunov style, it wouldn't matter if the receiver is angle cut or not... I'm curious too, on whether or not you can use standard AK trigger parts in it.
The bottom line is that wood stock is damn sexy
and now I'm gonna have to refinish mine to match! -
Don't pay any attention to tritium's attitude, but do pay attention to what he's saying. If he had have been so kind as to enlighten a young lad of the rules and how to follow them, maybe it would have been of more help?
So the thing here is, the BATF have these rules for foreign guns - you can only have a certain number of foreign parts, and/or have to have a certain number of US parts in a foreign gun if that gun is an "assault weapon" Since they count the magazine as three of those parts (mag body, follower, and base plate), and the Saiga in an unmodified form is NOT and "assault weapon," then if you use any magazine that is high capacity (more than 10 rounds) it turns it into an "assault weapon," thus making it subject to the BATF rules (922r).
Details and specifics can be found here, courtesy of Dinzag http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=18530
So, you're talking about a Saiga .223, ya? From what I remember, the BATF counts 14 parts in a Saiga rifle, so if you used a high capacity magazine with three US parts, you would need to replace one more part to make it legal. (High cap makes it an "assault weapon," you need 4 US made parts)
In any case, once you've got that figured out you can go here to find mags:
http://www.gilbertsguns.com/Clips-Magazines/Saiga+Magazines
Or other places using a google search. Hell, while you're at it, check out the Forum's sponsors, you'll probably find something there.
Have fun. Be safe.
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Hey cryptkeeper, what's this paranoia about names going on lists? Where do you get your information from? Thanks.
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Cool. Well, live and learn. All I need to do now is bake the bolt carrier, bolt and top cover to match up the finish. I guess my .308's got character now!
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Thanks for the info. So what do you know what this means for the finish? What does it do for the metal? More importantly the integrity of the metal. Does it weaken it/ruin it or what? I mean it still looks all right, but I'm no metallurgist, so I don't know.
Installing the Buffer on Saiga Shotgun
in FAQ
Posted · Edited by Maniac Jack
bump