ryancreek
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Posts posted by ryancreek
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I wonder if your G2 was improperly cast somehow. The gap between the disconnector and trigger hook look huge on the G2, compared to the Arsenal FCG.
P.S. the Arsenal FCG is technically the correct type for the Saiga series - it is an AK-74 FCG. However the Saiga will work with either. The AK-74 FCG I believe is designed to require less hammer travel to properly reset, but I can only speculate as to why.
Makes sense. If this K-Var/Arsenal FCG that I have now installed is technically the correct type, and price is competitive, why does the G2 seem to be so heavily favored in Saiga conversions?
I think this FCG is the tits, and I wish I could have seen the two together before I went with the G2 initially. Of course, like I said it doesn't have a sleeve that keeps them together and I had to no put a tiny notch in my safety to fit, but those are the only downsides I see.
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I believe I have fixed it with a K-Var FCG! And it was still only around $30. The website says it is designed from the original AKM by Arsenal, so maybe I should be calling it an Arsenal FCG.
The K-Var disconnector grips much more of the hammer (still the factory Saiga hammer). I used the same disconnector spring that was in the Tapco G2 since this set did not come with a spring. However, when I do the test and slowly release the trigger, it is firmly caught by the hook/sear EVERYTIME, which should eliminate all the doubles I was getting. Unlike the G2, I simply can't find that magic spot where the hammer slips past the sear. Live fire test will follow.
I did have to dremel a little notch on the left side of the safety lever to get it to fit past the K-Var disconnector (why all that unneccesary material on the rear of it?). It also does not have the convenient sleeve that holds the disco & trigger together like the Tapco G2 for easy drop-in installation. Feels good though. It is a thinner, rounded trigger instead of the flat-face of the G2, but trigger pull is smooth and it feels natural enough in the contour of my index finger.
Here are the two compared. Tapco G2 on left, K-Var/Arsenal on right:
When I compare the two like this, the K-Var one looks like better manufacturing to me. The disco and hook are beefier, it has cleaner edges, and a nice oxide finish. As you can see, the gap and angle between the disco and hook are also quite different.
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Mancat, I re-installed the Tapco hammer to take a closer look. The engagement is only slightly better, but nothing like the engagement seen in spacehog's pic. And it is still easy to release the trigger slowly and have it slip past the hook.
Going to try everyone's suggestions, and possibly different FCG parts. I do have a new bulgarian hammer and a k-var disconnector on the way. They were super cheap, so I figured those might be worth a shot when I get around to it this weekend.
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What Cobra is asking is.. If you if put the FCG in the same position you took the picture of, and while still holding the trigger in fire position, and you push down on the hammer with your finger, does the disconnector hook capture or engage more of the hammer? Or does it still just capture the lip with the pressure of the hammer relieved? ...
I put it in the same position, held the trigger back, and pushed down the hammer further. The disconnector does not engage more of the hammer, still only the lip.
Thanks for your description and thanks to Cobra's Custom LLC as well for the advice. I will follow-up with a post and pictures once I get it working correctly.
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Since nobody else has said it, has any work been done to the bottom of the bolt carrier by anyone? Does it still have the factory black paint there or has it been "polished"? Some people get carried away trying to re-profile & polish their hammers and bolt carriers, resulting in negative disco engagement.
Posting at the same time.... If you can't hold the trigger all the way back and keep it there while pulling and releasing the bolt, with the disco capturing the hammer like in spacehog's pic, then you either have a hammer / bolt carrier thickness issue, or bad (or no) spring in the disconnect, or it's one of those recalled discos with the deeper spring socket.
Alright I looked at your pic. The hammer IS getting captured so it can easily be fixed by taking a little off the bottom of the foot on the front of the disconnect. (That is if all it will go forward is that far... if you push down on the hammer now does it catch more of it??)
Edit again... are you sure the trigger is not binding on the receiver any when pulled?
All I did was take a factory Saiga that I purchased new off the shelf, bought the conversion parts from Dinzag Arms, and followed the instructions found here and here. I was very meticulous. No other work has been done to it.
If I push down the hammer, it won't capture any more of it. That's all I can get the disconnector to capture. Could you explain a little more what you mean by taking a bit off the bottom foot of the disconnector?
Trigger and the single hook part are moving smoothly in the receiver.
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... One easy way to test the disconnector is to hold the hammer down and pull the trigger until the disconnector catches the hammer. (The second photo). Now slowly release the trigger. The hammer should move slightly forward and be caught by the single hook sear without releasing the hammer fully. I.e striking the firing pin. If it does fully release the hammer, then the disconnector and/or spring is the root of your doubling problem. It is important to do this test several times. ...
Holy shit spacehog you have solved it! After comparing your pictures to mine, it is easy to see that my G2 disconnector is not engaging the hammer in the same manner. It looks as if mine is just barely catching it.
I did what you said as well, and when I slowly release the trigger, the hammer is NOT caught by the single hook, and strikes the firing pin. In fact, I can recreate this malfunction just about every time. Thank you much! (Note: factory Saiga hammer is installed in this pic, but the G2 hammer fit the same way. My BHO lever is also not currently installed, but I intend to use it).
I am definitely getting a new FCG. I could try another Tapco G2, but there are also lots of K-Var options http://www.k-var.com/shop/search.php?mode=search&page=2
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Do not order the double hook. It is not compatible with the saiga.
Further more I would bet the disconnector is the issue as said before. Check the spring and the depth if the pocket it sets it. Try posting pictures if you don't know what to look for.
No offense intended but if you don't know the difference in the single and double hook trigger or why it is or isn't compatible my bet is in user error as the main problem. As said before pictures do wonders in getting help. Some times its best without vague explanations.
Edited. Sorry for typo maybe will make sense now. Posting from phone and this these tiny keys drive me nuts.
The double hooks are compatible if you put a second small notch in the reciever. The spring depth on the disconnector is also correct. I'm just trying another FCG set.
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... it is likely an out of spec hammer or disconnector. You have aleady replaced the hammer, so that points to the disconnector or spring. Personally, I would try a different G2. Or alternately if you have a buddy with an AK with the G2 swap it out with his to see if it fixes the problem. I wouldn't give up on it that easily.
I am ordering a new G2 FCG today. Maybe I will try a double hook (?). The G2 currently installed is a single hook, and was purchased around 2007-2008. I did check and the disconnector spring IS at the correct depth, not too deep at all.
Maybe this next G2 will do the trick. Since so many people have success with the G2 I am wondering if somehow I got one slightly out of spec, like Spacehog said.
If that still doesn't work, I am going to put a rounded groove in a tapco trigger with a dremel so that it can be used with the factory disconnector.
One of these combos is sure to fix the issue I think.
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Let me ask everyone these questions: In your opinion, should I sell the gun as-is with the double-firing FCG when the trigger is babied, or go through the trouble of setting up different FCG in it? Has anyone faced legal trouble from unintentional double-fire?
Every other semi-automatic firearm I have ever owned never had this problem. This is probably my favorite firearm, but the lack of FCG options is frustrating, especially with 922r restrictions.
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I have three Saiga conversions with the Tapco G2 FCG which I purchased from Dinzag, I have never had one single problem with any of them.
I would also like to say that Brian has never left me hanging, he has always been quick to answer e-mails. I really do believe that this is the first negative "feedback" that I have ever seen about Dinzag....strange.
I just wonder how many other folks are having these "PROBLEMS".
It's not a problem with Dinzag at all, it's the Tapco G2. Please see one of the previous posts in this thread as you will see the links to others who have had the same issues. I know it works well for the vast majority of conversions, but Tapco now says not to put them in Saigas.
From what I am reading after doing a web search on the issue, it would appear that many people are having the same issue of doubling with the Redstar FCG as well. You might want to shoot Mancat a PM and see what modification he made to resolve the issue. In his original post, he linked a website that showed the modification, but the link is no longer working.
One last thought is to use a washer underneath the rear trigger legs to reduce over travel. I have read about issues with longer travel causing issues with the disconnector catching, especially during slow fire. If your problem is related to travel, this modification should fix it. GunFun has a post of the process here: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/76775-sweetest-trigger-for-saiga-conversions/&do=findComment&comment=816710
Thanks spacehog, I'll look into that. Very helpful advice.
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No response from Dinzag yet. Can't find any American made, Saiga ready FCG's other than G2s. Still hoping to get this trigger/disconnector problem fixed.
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Buy an arsenal trigger and disconnector and run the factory hammer.
I e-mailed Dinzag about the arsenal trigger/disconnector. I don't see any of them for sale at his site though. I just found out that the Red Star FCG won't just drop in without modification.
Just incase I do go that route, does anybody know what exactly I would have to do to mod and install the Red Star FCG? I'm an amateur and would require step by step instructions.
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I have heard "hammer follow" described a couple different ways. Yes the trigger does not always reset, but that is only part of the problem. In some instances, mostly when the trigger is pulled slowly, double-firing is occuring. After the first round is fired, the disconnector does not properly catch the hammer on its way back, resulting in the hammer following forward and firing another round.
I have since found the following that describes my issue exactly:
1) From Tapco:
"*Note: INTRAFUSE G2 Trigger Groups are not compatible with the Saiga platform. INTRAFUSE G2 Trigger Groups are also not compatible with NoDak Spud NDS-3 and NDS-65 "economy" receivers. In some cases, the use of these two products together can create accidental double firing of the firearm."
2) This: http://www.nodakspud.com/troubleshooting.htm
3) Within this forum in a previous post: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/85186-tapco-g2-fcg-is-not-intended-for-the-saiga-platform/
Looks like I am just one of those unfortunate people having issues with the mass-produced die-cut G2's. I think I am going to ditch it all together and try a RedStar adjustable FCG.
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Did you remove material from the side of the axis to allow for the bolt hold open?
I did the conversion years ago so I forget much of the process, but it does still have the bolt hold open. I do remember filing the actual lever a bit so that it does not get in the way of my trigger finger.
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Long story short, I did a Dinzag conversion of my Saiga 7.62x39 and used the Tapco G2 FCG (I know, the G2 sucks and I have since learned it is not recommended for conversions). Of course, now this thing is having a serious hammer follow issue. Here's what I have tried so far to remedy it:
1) Following instructions from others who have had the same problem, I re-shaped the Tapco hammer with a file so that it mates better with the disconnector - NO DIFFERENCE.
2) Replaced the Tapco hammer with the original Saiga factory hammer (I purposely built it to be 922r over-complaint, so I am still good when I do this). This also made NO DIFFERENCE.
So what are my options now?!? Is there anything I can do short of purchasing a whole new FCG (such as Red Star)? I just want to get this thing tuned up without any problems before I sell it to help me with grad school.
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When it jams what exactly is it doing? Is it not catching the round or is it feeding them low? When you have a full magazine is it sorta hard to charge it?
It seems that it tries to catch the round, but mars up the round casing instead, leaving the rounds in the mag with a big scratch on them. When it does feed it feeds perfectly. Rarely it will actually feed high but I think with some more wear on the bullet guide this will diminish. It is not physically hard to charge the rifle on a full mag, but sometimes on the charge it will also not chamber. At this point I think I am going to try totally different mags (to see if these particular Yugo BHO mags are just crap) and possibly file the mag catch lever on the rifle a little bit more.
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You haven't done any fitting on your mags have you? Sounds like something that may happen if you were filing the TOP of your mag latch tabs.. which should never be done.
I'm assuming the carrier and bolt have been installed in the rifle correctly since it is feeding part of the time.
I have several of the same mags and haven't had an issue with any of mine yet.
I have not modified the magazines in any way. And the carrier and bolt have not been modified either from the original Saiga configuration. But you're saying something similar could happen if the top of the magazine latches were filed, making them fit too high in the mag well and pushing into the bolt? I wonder if my mag catch lever on the rifle might not be filed enough then, making them fit tight and a bit high. The mag catch lever does scratch against the mag catches on all my magazines. The new Tapco mag also cannot fully seat without removing a round.... so how tightly should my mags be fitting and lock into the mag catch lever?
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What kind of ammo?
Hmm... pretty sure it was Wolf FMJ, but may also have been Barnaul or Herters FMJ. At any rate a good AK should eat them all up no problem - no? And if it was bad ammo, wouldn't you be more likely to have failures to fire or eject?
I should also note that the bolt would go OVER the bullets and mar the casings when there were failures to feed.
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Shot my recently converted Saiga 7.62x39 with standard AK Yugo bolt-hold open mags the other day only to find a failure to feed every few shots with some of the mags - yes I have installed a Dinzag bullet guide. Previous to shooting I manually cycled about 100 times, and also smoothed and polished the bullet guide. Also, if I have the magazines fully loaded, they won't seat. The bolt seems to get in the way. But when I take a round out then they will fit - same thing happens with a new Tapco 30 rd. mag I have. I think I have filed the mag catch lever down enough for standard AK mags. It is a little tight on some mags, but I'm worried if I file it even more that it might make the failure to feed problem worse. What's the deal here? Is it just bad mags or something else?
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Man there are some nice looking Saiga's on here. Love that woodland/snow camo one above. Just did my first conversion and it was easier than I thought it would be thanks to Dinzag. It's nice to be fully legal and 922r compliant.
Help! Hammer Follow Issue
in Saiga 7.62 X 39
Posted
Guess you were right all along!