MikeD
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Posts posted by MikeD
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Here are some pics of double stack mags. The exterior is currently a blank slate and not representative. Shown is an 8rd and 22rd mag. For length and width comparison there is a pic of the 8 next to a 5rd single and the 22 is next to the 12rd single . Notice the 12rder is missing its floor plate and that the doubles are each right at 1/2" shorter and also less than the width of two single stacks mags. The round to weight ration will be significantly lower than a single stack of the same capacity.
The capacities that will be available hasn't been finalized yet. I would like to start a poll to see what everyone would like to see available and what they think they would most likely pick as primary capacity.
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What I said was to date we have not had a single drum shipped out that was defective and any drum we deemed unfit to ship out was do to cosmetic reasons. Every great once in awhile the metal pin that the cover and sprocket attaches to can get smashed when the mold closes. When that happens you can't even assemble that drum... The material we use doesn't have the shrinkage and warping issues that a lot of other plastics used has. That is why no one has ever had a drum of ours that the tower shrunk in to tight for a shell to go through. That is a fact weather you believe it or not... With the exception of an occasional smashed pin, if the mold fills it is a functional part. I challenge anyone to produce a defective MD-20 drum. Produce me one and I will replace it with 25 new drums!
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Regardless of your results with lower capacity mags if you had to reduce the tension of the drum when firing low power ammo your gun was not up to par... I am positive that any material removed from the front of the magazine for feeding was completely unnecessary and would like to see pics. I would like to look up your emails and order, is your user name the name you ordered under? We have always taken credit cards and have received probably less than 150 non card payments for online orders. All those chose the payment method themselves... I do apologize for any unanswered emails as we certainly went dark for awhile. I am back and renewed now and ready to address any issues and bring our Customer Service back to the great quality it once was.
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I have the MD one, right off the bat it didn't work, had to tweak the spring, which wasn't a biggie. but I also had to work on the inside of the feed tower, which I shouldn't have had to do. the PRO-MAG drum I bought didn't need any tweaking to fit in the mag well or spring adjustment etc.., worked perfectly from the git go
anytime you buy anything, there is going to be a lemon in the mix, like I had with the MD one. it really comes down to customer service and how well they take care of the customer, instead of just taking your money. trying to contact Daniels on several occasions was fruitless, didn't return e-mails, phone call, so I had to fix something that shouldn't have needed any fixing to begin with.
lessons learned for me, never to buy ANY products from MD ARMS or any product with the MD ARMS name on it period,
You say you have the MD one. Did you sell the promags?
If you had to reduce the spring tension on the MD-20 drum for it to work your gun was running weak or needed broke in more. This is covered in the detailed user's guide provided with the magazine. Also I'm not sure what you modified inside the feed tower but I am sure it was not at all necessary and highly doubt it helped anything at all. As far as having to fit the magazine to your gun... These saiga's have became increasingly tight in the mag hook up. We thought it better to adjust fit, just like the factory does with the supplied 5rd magazine, to the gun than to have a flopping mag that fits all guns out of the box. With the increased tightness of these guns a floppy mag might not be as much as a problem now in newer guns but at the time of the MD-20 development it was very much a reality.
Also to note we have never had a single "lemon" mag produced or returned. Even drums we have not released due to defect have all been cosmetic defects and everyone would have been perfectly functional if released. We have had a very small handful of people claim to have a "lemon" drum and everyone upon return have been just as we suspected, in perfect working condition... The only problem we have ever had is people messing up the fitting by removing way to much material.
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The patent office is very picky about issuing patents. It is more their job to deny a patent than issue one... An example... I know a guy that came up with a device. Searching high and low in the patent records as well as the internet pulled nothing similar. Well... The patent office found two patents it infringed on... Many many patents are contested by the patent office and take extra work by the inventor to prove it is original. The patent office never contested my patent...
There have been many many magazine advancements in the last hundred years and the Bren mag is definitely far from the same principal as mine. Also the length difference between some Bren ammos is nothing in comparison to shotgun ammo. With that said I will bet the Bren runs into problems with their magazine design when using some of those ammo types... If I get some extra time maybe I can do some test with our post sample Bren. The whole reason rimmed cartridges have become few and far between is because the norm went to magazine fed firearms...
GunFun is absolutely correct. Coping a patented item for personal use is still infringement. Nothing needs to be sold or offered for sale. If a patented item is copied for personal use the patent hold was still cheated out of a sale. I know this thread was misunderstood and that a drawing for visual purposes was all that was asked for. We will post some pics soon.
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I know it has been awhile since I have posted. I just wanted everyone to know that the double stack is not dead. In fact it has never been more alive...
I'm not sure what happened to our business section. Maybe because I had been inactive here for so long.
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Here is the link I tried to post... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=278511484
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So does this mean that:
The design works flawlessly
You are feverishly warehousing a billion of these things
Just waiting for all your patent paperwork to finalize to release these to us without fear of someone stealing the design?
Not trying to be mean or shut down the party, but I'd encourage the competition to send a request for reevaluation of the patent to the USPTO. There are several grounds upon which it could be contested, including:
- It's just the inverse of existing railing on ALL S12 magazines. I just don't see the nonobviousness of the approach. The "others haven't done it" defense might work--be interesting to see how that would play out.
- It's not yet a product; Diligent in reducing the invention to practice? That's a solid "no." -- Challenging novelty is always an option
- Would a person of average skill in the trade consider it novel? Forcing MD Arms to defend what constitutes the "invention" could lead to at least a weakened patent (the single piece follower is most likely safe).
- Mike has opened to door for declaratory judgement by creating reasonable apprehension
Did I mention I hate patents? It's probably my software engineering background... software patents are the worst kind of evil.
Wish you the best, Mike.
You are completely wrong on your claims on my design. You obviously don know what our looking at regarding the design of my double stack or the other mags. You wish me the best of luck but call for other to challenge me. That's a strange fit. Did you know SGM already tried for the double stack design. They said it couldn't be done if I recall right. Will their argument be that they tried and failed so I shouldnt have a design they can't copy? You state you are tempted to do a double stack. Let's see it. How will you achieve this. You claim to be a software engineer. I'm betting your more of a reverse engineer. If it were the other way around you would favor patent instead of hate them... That is the greed and jealousy talking too. You think others should challenge me to make me spend money. You said you would if you were my competitors. Do you mind posting the links to all the case where you have challenged patents? I'm betting you have never challenged one. Yeah, it costs good money to challenge too. Maybe even more to challenge. You speak like you know I couldn't afford the fight. I'm not much of a bragger but here is a glimps a few days ago of my situation, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=278511484. Time to fight it? That's what patent attorneys are for... Did Izhmash take ownership of Molot over infringement a few years back? What about Bailey and HK? Bailey had to shred his dies, pay 2 or 3 million and give up his right to do any HK work if I'm remembering that correctly. There is usually much bigger risk involved with infringement. Is someone going to build a set of molds to challenge me? I doubt it. Also I never said someone else couldn't come up with a design of there own. What I did say was it would likely be inferior, complicated and not well accepted next to mine. I do expect to be challenged some day on the patent. I'm not worried about that. I'll address it if/when need be. I'm betting though someone's best bet (their easiest and most profitable) would be to contact me for a licensing agreement... I'm not goIn to argue this any further.
I'll end this with Bill Gate's won the rights to patent software for a reason... Good luck to you...
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This is definately coming to market. Multiple capacities. Will take both 2 3/4 and 3".
As far as patents... I never patented the drum. There are to many different ways someone could make a drum. I didn't account for someone just coping the key features though. I was considering someone with the same passion I had. I didn't consider the cheap cloners only in it for a quick buck.
The double stack I definitely wanted to patent... Some would say and some have said there was no way to do it. There was in fact one very simple way... My patent will cover all feasible variations and even a not so feasible one. Getting around a patent isn't nearly as easy as some think either. You have to have a good patent (good attorney) and be willing for a fight if need be. I have a great firm I work with. They are all patent attorneys, all they do... I have an advantage to that I am located in a hub of filed patents (Dayton). Willing to fight? I don't want a fight but am completely prepared to give it all I have. I fight very hard too. My attorney is in fact the person who sent me a link today to the same thread that King Cash linked and that made me check here... I filed the patent a good while ago and my attorney filed in a manor to keep it form the public for 18 months. My attorney is on it. He knows what we have... This patent isn't limited to saiga-12 mags. This patent isn't limited to 12ga either.
Having reviewed the patent, I'm not 100% on it holding up to contestation. The novel and nonobvious tests are certainly up for debate. Essentially, the design is the reverse of the single stack round insertion guides. This isn't a legal forum and I'm no lawyer, but there is nothing about this patent that should prevent other manufacturers from introducing double stacks. Need an example? Look at AR quad stacks.
My attorney is pretty certain this design will beat contesting... As far as quad stack. They have been done for rifle and pistols for many many decades. I can think of many different methods to do a quad for rifle and pistol ammo. I can't do the same for the double stack shotgun mags. Not one that will work anyways without infringing upon mine. I hired professionals for a reason to advice on patents. I wanted to take the assuming out of the equation and know were I stood. Do you think I would have aloud the design to be public before release from filing a patent if I wasn't very confidant the design would be safe? Hell no I wouldn't. I won't go as far as saying no one will never come up with a different way to make it happen. I will say it will be at great expense, resources and beating their heads against the wall only to come up with something of such complexity and/or limitation that the design would be so inferior and/or cost prohibited and/or negating of all practical benefits, etc to pursue it. If this were an easy task it would have been implemented decades ago. I have succeeded were many others have failed. I did it in three weeks too... I am VERY proud of this design. Prouder than I have ever been over any past accomplishment to date.. That means I will fight tooth and nail to protect it. Fight like I have never fought before. I'm not trying to be arrogant or big headed. I am simply speaking from a father stand point regarding his child. What would you do if someone tried to get your baby by the arm to take it away from you? It would ensue a very, very nasty and vicious confrontation. No one is getting my baby without a very defining fight for life. I hope you all feel the same way.
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This is definately coming to market. Multiple capacities. Will take both 2 3/4 and 3".
As far as patents... I never patented the drum. There are to many different ways someone could make a drum. I didn't account for someone just coping the key features though. I was considering someone with the same passion I had. I didn't consider the cheap cloners only in it for a quick buck.
The double stack I definitely wanted to patent... Some would say and some have said there was no way to do it. There was in fact one very simple way... My patent will cover all feasible variations and even a not so feasible one. Getting around a patent isn't nearly as easy as some think either. You have to have a good patent (good attorney) and be willing for a fight if need be. I have a great firm I work with. They are all patent attorneys, all they do... I have an advantage to that I am located in a hub of filed patents (Dayton). Willing to fight? I don't want a fight but am completely prepared to give it all I have. I fight very hard too. My attorney is in fact the person who sent me a link today to the same thread that King Cash linked and that made me check here... I filed the patent a good while ago and my attorney filed in a manor to keep it form the public for 18 months. My attorney is on it. He knows what we have... This patent isn't limited to saiga-12 mags. This patent isn't limited to 12ga either.
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A drum will not be easy for this weapon. Our Saigas feed with the mag locked in at a angle while shells feed through out the mag pretty straight giving the shell the proper alignment to feed into the barrel bore, with the MKA 1919, because the mag slides straight in at 90 degrees or very near it, the feed angle is made up in the follower. With a straight mag this is a little pain in design, but with a drum this is a major problem! In order for a drum to work with this weapon it will have to feed straight then kick the shell up to the required angle to feed properly or the drum would have to have some weird outside shape that allows the shell to feed around already angled, adding quite a bit to the over all outside diameter to the drum. I have some concepts to achieve this but they're sketchy at best at this point. I turned my attention to drums like the beta-meg for the AR platform but there is a major differences feeding a pointed .223 round versus a large flat front surface such as a 12 ga. shell. I was hoping to convert our 10 Rd mini drum for this weapon and still may be able do so, but it will be a design challenge unlike anything we've seen in a while with weapon platforms, really doubt you'll see any current mags being adapted to this weapon.
No major design challange. There is a very simple solution to the angle. What you would do is offset the front and rear sprocket. The offset will translate up the tower through the shells. This will happen in both directions. You could nose up or down either one like this.
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A wise man asks if Double-Stack is REALLY the "only one that works," then why focus on designing and marketing something else? Something seemingly doesn't add up.
May I please have that suggested pending patent number?
Many S-12 owners are going to be feel foolish after waiting 3 years just to find out the focus has been elsewhere. Crap, there wasn't even the common courtesy of any heads-up about a new delay (3 years now). C'mon Mike, you don't do this to people then just casually brush over it in your email like all S-12 owners shouldn't be totally PO'd and feel duped. Very disappointing.
Ok, Let clear a lot of things up for you...
The double stack has been delayed for a while. Not because it doesn't work or anything like that. Other things have kept our focus elsewhere. Not because we wanted to do other things more... If it wasn't the only way we wouldn't have messed with patents on it... And NO, you can not have the patent number. We filed it in a way that keeps it unpublic for 18 months. We didn't do this to hand it out... Call a patent attorney and confirm you can do this if you like...
3 years, thats odd because we only built the double stack in late July, early August of 2009. Thats roughly 1 year and 10 months...
The reason we are doing the quads first is because the 5.45 is 5 times bigger (low estimate, probably closer to 10 times) of a market than the saiga-12 market... And the 7.62x39 market is probably 2 to 4 times as big as the 5.45. The market is already flooded with high cap 7.62 mags so we are doing the 5.45 first. Another big reason is we have the double stack shotgun magazine protected. Even if we didn't have it protected many have tried and failed at designing true double stack shotgun mags (many better equipted, supposedly, and with more resources I might add). Last we need to get out of being solely saiga-12 dependent. With all the crap going on in the saiga-12 market who could blame me?
I will add I personally would much rather produce the double stack 12ga mags first. For one because so many have tried and failed and it was very simple for me. It will be a big testament to our innovation and design abilities.
I understand some are very disappointed as am I. But as far as feeling duped, I don't recall taking orders for them or anything or promising delivery dates...
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A piston shouldn't sandwich between the op rod and gas plug. There should be clearance to prevent this. If you screw your plug in and you see the bolt carrier going back your gun is hammering the op rod and carrier.
The button on the factory gas plug is so the piston will not be sitting in a position that would seal of the gases when using the high brass setting on the factory plug. If it wasn't there the piston might not bounce back off the plug and cause low gas. That is the only reason our pistons don't have a full concave dish on the front of them and just have a concave ring, to leave stand off material for the factory plug's button. The reason we put the concave feature on the MD pistons is the same reason military ak's and too many differnent guns to mention from around the world have the concave dish on the piston (op rod in the shotgun). It causes some of the gas to blow away from the piston rather than rushing around past it on the sides. It very slightly decreases gas loss during pressurization. Once pressure builds the gas is spraying past the piston regardless of geometry, just like water would. Really the increased surface area doesn't have much a play in this application. When something is pressurized it is equally pushed in all direction and I would have to think the dished surface would be less efficient and a flat surface the most efficient possible. It seems that the pressure would be pushing on the curve of the dish in a less efficient direction. I don't know for sure here, If so it isn't taking as much away as the lower gas loss is adding. Our dish is very shallow.
Also the piston isn't delivering impact force as much as pushing. That was one of my original thought too but I felt it was disproved when I tried a tungsten piston. After closer thought on the operation I realized that before reaching required PSI that the gases have well in advance seated the piston against the rod. After the tungsten piston it was obvious a lighter piston would help instead of hurt. The tungsten made a hot running gun shoot like crap, just to heavy. The weight of the piston was more critical than even the gas chamber volume to the points we tested. For instance we made a doomed piston that filled up a deeply cut gas plug like the Vplug but a lot deeper. It didn't counter act the large chamber volume and my guess why is the added weight of the piston. In fact I would probably bet money that the KA pistons biggest benefit is the reduced weight from the deep cut in the front. I know it is advertised as a bigger pressure curve and increases reliability... In this application that is very wrong. We have found that any volume increase has I'll effect. It definitely does from the piston side of the chamber too but in the KA case the harm of volume increase isn't as great as the benefit of weight decrease I'm guessing.. It would also offer less gas loss... I wish I had time to explore further but I feel we have the answer piston in the Booster. I could make one that increased even more than the Booster but feel it wouldn't be good for the market or end users in the long run. Too many people would have them that didn't need something that potent.
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Saweeeeet, they definitely not banning em if purple are starting to make deals!
I haven't heard anything for certain myself. I am just blowing out our inventory and not messing with mass retail sales for awhile.
As far as the deals you are seeing elsewhere it could be a number of things. The saiga market is up in the air. Even if they don't get banned the factory isn't in production right now so they may dry up again for awhile. That's if buying continues at the higher prices. The guns that just came in were actually made in '09 and were the last of the complete US import compliant versions they factory had and it wasn't a large number. When the factory starts producing again they are increasing prices by 16%. On top of all this the new crazy high dealer prices probably has the dealers that bought them feeling nervous about the price they paid and they might be trying to turn their stock quickly just in case buying stops and prices are forced down. I will tell you though, if you start seeing them for less than what I am closing out ours for there is going to be a lot of screwed dealers out there that bought for higher! I don't think we will see that soon though as I just received an email today from a large distributor advertising dealer cost at $719!!! That will leave a retail of around $775 on the low end and $900 plus on the high end...Insane! It is hard to say what will happen. I don't put Obama, Holder and their fellow Socialists past anything. They have already proven they don't give a damn about Americans' wants, what the country stands for or anything other than scratching for the the crown of a controlled subject expendable population... It's hard to say what will happen with the saigas and when, if anything...
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I should have a MKA 1919 in my possession very likely tomorrow or Friday!!! Looks very nice and simple.
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Like the title said.
RAA IZ-107 24" for $650
TGI IZ-109 19" for $675
All come with our US made stainless piston.
$20 flat rate shipping for 1 gun, except Alaska and Hawaii.
They are listed on gunbroker here, http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/SellerAuctions.aspx?User=1141361
If you want one go through there. If you are wanting more than one send us an email to info@mdarms.com and we will see if we can sharpen it up a little. 109 prices are close to firm but we could work more on the 107s for multiple guns.
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I wanted to let everyone know the status and standing of MD Arms. We are making some significant changes. The below will cover most of these changes in the area of new up coming products, the handling of our sales and manufacturing, our location...
For just over two years MD Arms has operated out of 2600 sq ft. This area quickly became tight and congested. It has reached a point that we have zero room for growth and at times it is a struggle just to have the area to efficiently perform our present operations. We are happy to announce that we are moving from our 2600 sq ft shop into a 24000 sq ft facility. This extra room is going to make current operations much smoother flowing and efficient and greatly open up room for growth.
For some of this extra room we are purchasing plastic injection machines and support equipment, a stamping press, and other equipment that will move the biggest majority of our outsourcing in house. This will allow MD Arms to have much more control over production times including many other added benefits.
With some of the newly acquired room we will be setting up a saiga conversion line. We have already acquired all the equipment needed for doing this in a high production setting. Having the room will let us set the conversion line up permanently without the time consuming need of tearing down set ups and fixturing and re-setting to do different steps and processes. This will streamline the process and make for a very consistent super high quality final product and at a great price. Conversion details will be elaborated on in time and you can keep peaking at our site for updates.
We are also thrilled to announce we will be releasing quad stack mags. First will be one for the AK-74 in 5.45x39 followed by one for the AK-47 in 7.62x39. These will be super high quality and made with super high strength material just like our other items. They will be made from a superior polymer material that greatly out performs any current military or after market plastic used in the AK mags you have now. Just like military grade magazines they will also have full steel insets from top to bottom; feedlips, front mag catch, rear mag catch, and floor plate reinforcement. The floor plate will be made from steel as well. Our production capabilities of these mags will be pretty high right out of the gate and we will be able to retail these mags in the neighborhood of $35 to $40 each. About 3 months in advance of releasing them we will start taking pre-orders with a reduced price in the area of $25 to $30 each with deposit. The pre-order will give us 4 to 6 weeks to help us judge the polymer and steel material we can order for the initial production run. The polymer we use isn't a shelf item and is made to our order with a 6 to 8 week lead-time from order to delivery to us. Also the steel needs ordered, stamped, and heat treated... A pre-order with deposit will also allow us extra capital to increase the amount of material ordered and size of the production run. This will help insure we can keep the price low as well as have some stock immediately available to ship after pre-orders have shipped. I know it will be hard but please do not email or call asking for more information on the quad stack magazines. At this time all the information we are releasing on them is stated above.
We are still going to produce our double stack Saiga-12 box magazine but we are prioritizing the ak quad stack magazines. There is only one way to do it right and we have that design protected. I know a lot of guys have been dying for the double stack 12ga mags for awhile and want to assure everyone that the only thing that will stop us from producing them is if there is a high cap magazine ban. Even if the Saiga-12 is blocked from import we will still be producing the double stacks for it.
Last I want to let everyone know that at this time we are not taking retail or dealer sales. The only distributor sales we will be taking is from a few that have been with us since the beginning. We will be contacting all of our current dealers and distributors by email to fill them in on these changes. We have also picked up Cope's Distributing as our Master Distributor and they will be handling our dealer and distributor sales. They are 30 minutes down the road from us and they have a long reach into the retail, dealer and distributor markets. Eliminating the sales from our site will let us focus on the things we really shine at which is design and manufacturing. It has been a real pleasure serving the end user direct but it has reached a point that it is actually causing a great distraction to what we do best. We have been struggling to meet demand on our products and this will allow us more time to do that and get ahead on manufacturing before we move operations to the new location. Once the move is made we need to then focus on setting up the new equipment for the production of the quad stacks. You will soon see changes on our site that reflects these changes as well as direction to where you can find and order our items. Currently all we have done at the moment is removed the quantity from all the items on our site. Everything is showing as out of stock on our site but you can find it all everywhere else you are used to seeing it and now at http://www.copesdistributing.net/index.php?manufacturers_id=74.
Thanks Everyone! Mike Davidson and staff at MD Arms
If posting comments on quad stacks please do so in our section here, http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/66669-a-new-direction-for-md-arms%3B/page__pid__643560#entry643560
Heres a teaser pic of a couple quad stacks...
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I wanted to let everyone know the status and standing of MD Arms. We are making some significant changes. The below will cover most of these changes in the area of new up coming products, the handling of our sales and manufacturing, our location...
For just over two years MD Arms has operated out of 2600 sq ft. This area quickly became tight and congested. It has reached a point that we have zero room for growth and at times it is a struggle just to have the area to efficiently perform our present operations. We are happy to announce that we are moving from our 2600 sq ft shop into a 24000 sq ft facility. This extra room is going to make current operations much smoother flowing and efficient and greatly open up room for growth.
For some of this extra room we are purchasing plastic injection machines and support equipment, a stamping press, and other equipment that will move the biggest majority of our outsourcing in house. This will allow MD Arms to have much more control over production times including many other added benefits.
With some of the newly acquired room we will be setting up a saiga conversion line. We have already acquired all the equipment needed for doing this in a high production setting. Having the room will let us set the conversion line up permanently without the time consuming need of tearing down set ups and fixturing and re-setting to do different steps and processes. This will streamline the process and make for a very consistent super high quality final product and at a great price. Conversion details will be elaborated on in time and you can keep peaking at our site for updates.
We are also thrilled to announce we will be releasing quad stack mags. First will be one for the AK-74 in 5.45x39 followed by one for the AK-47 in 7.62x39. These will be super high quality and made with super high strength material just like our other items. They will be made from a superior polymer material that greatly out performs any current military or after market plastic used in the AK mags you have now. Just like military grade magazines they will also have full steel insets from top to bottom; feedlips, front mag catch, rear mag catch, and floor plate reinforcement. The floor plate will be made from steel as well. Our production capabilities of these mags will be pretty high right out of the gate and we will be able to retail these mags in the neighborhood of $35 to $40 each. About 3 months in advance of releasing them we will start taking pre-orders with a reduced price in the area of $25 to $30 each with deposit. The pre-order will give us 4 to 6 weeks to help us judge the polymer and steel material we can order for the initial production run. The polymer we use isn't a shelf item and is made to our order with a 6 to 8 week lead-time from order to delivery to us. Also the steel needs ordered, stamped, and heat treated... A pre-order with deposit will also allow us extra capital to increase the amount of material ordered and size of the production run. This will help insure we can keep the price low as well as have some stock immediately available to ship after pre-orders have shipped. I know it will be hard but please do not email or call asking for more information on the quad stack magazines. At this time all the information we are releasing on them is stated above.
We are still going to produce our double stack Saiga-12 box magazine but we are prioritizing the ak quad stack magazines. There is only one way to do it right and we have that design protected. I know a lot of guys have been dying for the double stack 12ga mags for awhile and want to assure everyone that the only thing that will stop us from producing them is if there is a high cap magazine ban. Even if the Saiga-12 is blocked from import we will still be producing the double stacks for it.
Last I want to let everyone know that at this time we are not taking retail or dealer sales. The only distributor sales we will be taking is from a few that have been with us since the beginning. We will be contacting all of our current dealers and distributors by email to fill them in on these changes. We have also picked up Cope's Distributing as our Master Distributor and they will be handling our dealer and distributor sales. They are 30 minutes down the road from us and they have a long reach into the retail, dealer and distributor markets. Eliminating the sales from our site will let us focus on the things we really shine at which is design and manufacturing. It has been a real pleasure serving the end user direct but it has reached a point that it is actually causing a great distraction to what we do best. We have been struggling to meet demand on our products and this will allow us more time to do that and get ahead on manufacturing before we move operations to the new location. Once the move is made we need to then focus on setting up the new equipment for the production of the quad stacks. You will soon see changes on our site that reflects these changes as well as direction to where you can find and order our items. Currently all we have done at the moment is removed the quantity from all the items on our site. Everything is showing as out of stock on our site but you can find it all everywhere else you are used to seeing it and now at http://www.copesdistributing.net/index.php?manufacturers_id=74.
Thanks Everyone! Mike Davidson and staff at MD Arms
Heres a teaser pic of a couple quad stacks...
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Actually these guys came by our shop looking for help with the design and manufacturing. The proto they had was a little crude. I told them they needed to add the bumps up front to keep them from coming forward and knocking the scope on the upper hand guard. We also incorporated the rear sight to the rail and made it mil spec for them. We drew it out in CAD for them. This was late summer '10. They was looking for someone to help them bring it to market. We offered to manufacture it but they went with another company that supposedly could get it out quickly. All I know is if we were the ones they picked it would have been released months ago... The company they went with was making big promises of gov contracts and such... I tried to tell them they were missing a big boat in the civilian market but they wanted to mess with government red tape instead. I guess that is why it still isn't released...
They was a nice group of guys but had zero understanding of how design and manufacturing truly works. It is a nice concept though and I wish them the best of luck.
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Wouldn't it be neat if Will could get the producers to put a plea to the public saying what's happening with the deterioration of our rights, primarily with the S-12 at the beginning of his show some time?
I'd say the S-12 on an ATV with an MD-20 for hunting classifies it as sporting purposes...
Ahh... in a perfect world....
Yes, I was thinking something similar. I was thinking more along the lines of season 2. The show is a hit and people are wanting to see Will now and not the new Discovery Channel show... He will have much more pull in making the show his own I thought. But right now would be great... Holding a Saiga-12 saying this is about to be banned... Don't you want to be able to buy one??? Discover might not want the approach though. They should though.
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Mike,
The only denial that I have heard about to date is for the M1 Garands/M1 Carbines, but I would not be surprised is this went further and I have not tried to confirm it. When talking to some of our local ATF agents, whom are reliable sources for me anyways, they have only advised that the S12's will be worth a lot more in the future. They would not elaborate any further, so I don't know how to take it. Obviously not trying to stir the pot on this again, but I'm starting to experience a level of concern as well.
Can you being on a more personal level with ATF officials give your assessment of the general feels most are having on gun rights? On the concern yes... At first I wasn't too worried. Then I see the full page pic of our drum in the study and it brought a little more but still not overly. But I have been hearing more and more and it just isn't looking good at all. I think this issue needs brought to national attention and fast. The NRA need to stand up and speak louder as well. If we could get the media to look into the denied paperwork as an unofficial official ban that could be something. America as a whole doesn't like gun bans and if we let this possible go by quietly it might not even be known that it needs overturned! Who am I kidding, how can this not be political as bad as everyone is sick of hearing political stuff... We need to act. Write And send to everyone. Tell all the news anchors we want to see a story on this... Tell the NRA and newly elected official we can't hear them...
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If this is true does such a denial also affect certain Benellis, etc?
The thing is the saiga meets the definition of sporting. It is no different than the rifles. Just as many aftermarket, surplus, and high cap mags are available for them as well. I fear if they stop the 12 because of availability that the rifle might not be far behind. A saiga rifle is about the only way to get a new quality barrel since the barrel ban a few years back. If we keep letting them pick away at us we will soon have nothing left.
Agree 1000%. In the long disappeared ATF thread in this subforum I said the same thing as any argument made against the S12 could be made against the rifles as well as the WASRs and Legion rifles brought in by Arsenal. I wrote a 2 page response a month or more ago and sent it to the ATF and contacted my congressman and senators. No response. This coupled with Gunrunner really paints the ATF if a negative (and well deserved) light. I remain hopeful that this overstep may finally be met with legal challenges.
Really I hate to put the blame on the ATF. It is their puppetmasters that do this. From what I've seen from speaking to many agents on a personal level is that most are progun, proAmerica and simply don't agree with a lot of the same things we don't agree with. The ATF as a whole takes the fall. Much in the same way Holder is about to take the fall for Obama. Only Holder is clearly on a whole right there with Obama. I feel blaming the ATF on a whole is blaming the wrong source. The ATFs thoughts on the saiga-12 was it was better to be coming here then sold out of country. But some new string pullers are having different ideas...
We really shouldn't pull this thread in the political direction though.
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If this is true does such a denial also affect certain Benellis, etc?
The thing is the saiga meets the definition of sporting. It is no different than the rifles. Just as many aftermarket, surplus, and high cap mags are available for them as well. I fear if they stop the 12 because of availability that the rifle might not be far behind. A saiga rifle is about the only way to get a new quality barrel since the barrel ban a few years back. If we keep letting them pick away at us we will soon have nothing left.
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I have also heard rumor that the Form 6 has been denied or put on hold until after the study, which IMO is a de facto import ban. It is indeed a shame. If I had the kind of resources as you Mike D. I would buy at least a dozen at whatever price they did come in for the shitstorm no matter what. But that is just me and my paranoid nature
If they do stop them everything about it is dirty no matter what. I have some stashed back for our conversion line and just listed some for sale today to clear up some capital but am wondering if that was a mistake. I'm telling you, the dealer price I head today wasn't pretty at all. We should all write well constructed letter and send it to EVERY congressman there is. Maybe even try to get Fox to pick the story up as part of their inflated gunrunning investigation. To me it sound like part of the same damn story anyways. We should also comment on the ATF study and tell them not to let certain people pull their strings!
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Double Stack Pics
in Saiga-12
Posted
Also to add... A stock can be folded with a double stack installed.