my762buzz
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Posts posted by my762buzz
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Great write up excellent pictures. I'd like to see how it holds up on poly parts, and traditional gun solvents like hoppes #9..maybe acetone?
Thanks.
Hoppes #9 should be no problem at all.
Acetone is very extreme also.
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Very nice post
Thanks
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Well, I decided to see how resistant my favorite spray can auto parts store coating VHT CALIPER PAINT (900 degree) is against brake parts cleaner. Most anything I have tried up to now in the sub $10 can price range has not faired well against brake parts cleaner. Dupli-color 500 degree paint was a big disappointment. It did not take long for brake parts cleaner to ruin the dupli-color finish. The older Dupli-1200 degree coating was also too easily affected by the same brake parts cleaner. Brake parts cleaner is pretty harsh and while some may wonder why go to this level of chemical solvent it really is close enough to gun scrubber a popular gun cleaning solvent that it helps to set some kind of testing bench mark for a inexpensive home made evaluation. This and the fact that I wouldn't ever use anything stronger than brake parts cleaner to clean any of my firearms. It is perfectly safe on steel but can easily destroy most carbon based finishes and can also harm plastics/synthetics.
Initially, I sectioned off an area to coat on a spare steel mag.
I fully cured the coating for 1 hour at 200 degrees as indicated on the can instructions.
I got a glass bowl to soak the magazine in for ten minutes. The finish was fully submerged in the solvent.
Afterwards, I dried the magazine and scratch tested the coating with a finger nail.
The coating help up better then anything else I have tested so far, but it was softening a bit and a paper towel could wipe some minor surface particles from coating fairly easy.
I guess it would be safe to use something mild like kerosene to clean any coated parts in the future but a steady use of anything really strong like brake parts cleaner, acetone, or MEK would slowly erode the finish over time. Three of the better reasons why I like this coating are it cures in 1 hour at 200 degrees which is very safe for steel tempered springs, it resists chipping very well, and it can endure up to 900 degrees which is no where near what a typical AK barrel will need to endure. I don't think you can find anything tougher and more solvent resistant in the sub $10 category.
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For long term storage, I submerge the steel mags in motor oil. Big steel containers that are leak proof work great.
Sometimes it takes getting creative to protect your investments.
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No we don't make pistol grips.
Any chance the real Russian version of these as seen in the photo might become available on the KVAR website?
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A country that simplifies like the Russians most likely only make ONE style blank, and the difference is just lathe work.
This is pretty much my thoughts on this topic also.
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All I'm pointing out here is that people that know nothing are usually the loudest ones saying Legions are the same as everything else. They could be, but some sharp people in the biz seem to think differently and to me that's worth considering.
My comments about grades of steel or more precise barrel forming methods have to do with reasoning about the whether the Legion barrels will last longer or shoot more precisely than sporter barrels. If mil spec only matters in barrel dimensions including proper notching grooves and markings, then the difference is insignificant as far as overall durability or precision.
I'm not saying there is no difference, but just that to matter in the areas that result in durability and precision this involves more than authentic Russian arsenal markings or proper retainer notches. Markings and notches do not make a barrel more durable or accurate. All I am saying is that until someone presents some solid evidence that Izmash uses better steel or more refined methods in making the mil spec barrels or Legion barrels versus the sporter barrels that I won't believe it.
A similar thread could have been started suggesting that Izmash mil spec receivers (select fire third hole) last 10 times what a sporter receiver lasts because the mil spec receivers are made of a much higher grade tool steel that is hammered 3 times as long and heat treated over 3 days. Someone's friend heard this from a cousin that is dating Kalishnakov's great granddaughter. Without any real way to confirm this, it just becomes a rumor or worse an internet myth. Bear in mind I own an SGL21 and absolutely love it, but could not in good conscience determine that it will outlast a sporter saiga in service life or that it will shoot significantly more precisely.
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He seemed to indicate that the barrel itself was inferior, and that this "mil spec" barrel would shoot .5" groups (obviously he saying its more accurate). If they are indeed using higher "grade" barrels, it might be worth the cost, but if this guy is just blowing smoke, I would like to know that as well.
The factors that could contribute to this claim would be a better steel alloy, barrel steel density from more hammering or more intense hammering on the mandrel, and a more uniform bore which could result from a more precise mandrel surface.
Most people will have no way of checking whether the steel alloy of the barrel is any different than the other.
Are they hammered into a denser steel? A rockwell hardness test might work but who might have this tool on hand and is willing to test both barrel types?
Is the bore more uniform? Does anyone have a very good bore analysis scope and know what to look for?
This is what would need to be checked and even most gunsmiths are not specialists in these areas.
I have not seen any public documents from Arsenal that even attempt to make these claims and would like to know how Chris Butler came to know this
Until I see any solid proof otherwise, I can't believe that the SGL barrels are made of inferior steel or of an inferior process.
Probably just a typo on your part, but the claim is that the SGL has a superior barrel on it, not the other way around. I tend to think this is BS......
Yes, typo fixed.
The only inherent advantage I can see of the SGL barrels is no chamber step. The term "mil spec" would mostly serve to indicate exact dimensions as one of the select fire rifles that Izmash produces for non-civilian use. Arsenal's use of the term is to incite collectors or enthusiasts to covet these more because they are LIKE the ones on select fire rifles. This is a marketing tool which promotes a sense of authenticity and with some people a deep seated connection to real events. I'm not sure how superior performance came out of Arsenal's marketing term.
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He seemed to indicate that the barrel itself was inferior, and that this "mil spec" barrel would shoot .5" groups (obviously he saying its more accurate). If they are indeed using higher "grade" barrels, it might be worth the cost, but if this guy is just blowing smoke, I would like to know that as well.
The factors that could contribute to this claim would be a better steel alloy, barrel steel density from more hammering or more intense hammering on the mandrel, and a more uniform bore which could result from a more precise mandrel surface.
Most people will have no way of checking whether the steel alloy of the barrel is any different than the other.
Are they hammered into a denser steel? A rockwell hardness test might work but who might have this tool on hand and is willing to test both barrel types?
Is the bore more uniform? Does anyone have a very good bore analysis scope and know what to look for?
This is what would need to be checked and even most gunsmiths are not specialists in these areas.
I have not seen any public documents from Arsenal that even attempt to make these claims and would like to know how Chris Butler came to know this
Until I see any solid proof otherwise, I can't believe that the saiga sporter barrels are made of inferior steel or of an inferior process.
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A buddy of mine is being told that the $800 SGL-21 hes buying from Arsenal has a different "Mil Spec" barrel than the rest of the Saiga's coming from Russia. Hes being told by them that the barrels on the Saiga's come from a different line than the mil spec rifles are run on. I think this sounds a little fishy to me, since most here seem to indicate that while Arsenal builds a good rifle, Ive never heard they actually use higher grade compoenents from Russia. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
Which specific components are being compared? I'm not sure if the barrel comment is trying to imply that the sporter saiga barrels are less reliable or less durable?
Perhaps the fuss is really about being reconfigured differently like without a chamber step and with a retainer, lugs, and threaded front sight block.
However, just because it is reconfigured differently, does not mean the sporter version is made from inferior steel, inferior forging applications, inferior chrome lining,
inferior stampings, inferior riveting, or inferior alignment. The quality control level should be exactly the same for both types.
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Is there no US company that makes mag followers with the bump like on the saiga mags?
Seems like it would help w/ 922r and make feeding issues almost non existent.
The saiga mags have a higher feed lip to avoid a bullet guide. The follower is at the bottom of the ammo stack.
Many do not want a plastic AK mag that is not steel lined like the bulgarian circle tens. No other mags are.
If the place that manufactures the circle ten magazines began making some special edition ones with a feed lip about 3 mm higher,
you would have a high quality mag that could feed perfect without a bullet guide.
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I like to store my AK 74 polymer mags in surplus mag pouches in order to keep them organized. Can steel mags be stored in this manner? I've heard before that storing guns in soft cases was bad because the cases would sap the oil, with the eventual result of rust; wouldn't this also be the case for steel mags in canvas pouches? How do you guys go about storing steel mags, apart from just stacking them?
That can occur with foam linings in direct contact with steel. You could just plastic bag each mag individually and then store it in a surplus mag pouch.
A light coat of wax on the blued or parked mag outer surfaces will also be extra insurance against rust.
I store my short term storage mags lightly greased on the outside in plastic utility bins away from any foam. Painted ones are already protected and wouldn't need anything else.
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Has anyone at KVAR considered making a U.S. version of the Izmash pistol grips like shown in the picture below?
http://www.rusmilitary.com/images/saiga12_grip.jpg
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If you can do all the work that Arsenal does to the rifles in your back yard by "just converting it" id love to know a price. Can i get on the list?
The basic saiga sporter conversion is a complete different world than the Arsenal SGL series.
I think this has become the main selling point that Arsenal relies upon to market the SGL series.
You get all those new unissued tight fitting parts that would already cost quite a bit if you bought them on your own.
Then, they are fit properly and no holes to weld up.
I spent way too many hours just fitting a gas tube and handguard on my own so I can really appreciate the work already done in a reasonable price range.
This is probably why Atlantic Firearms is betting that their new saigas with the front ends already set up are going to be profitable.
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Hey Everyone,
So I was installing my bullet guide, when guess what the tap broke, yes I probably went to fast. But what to do now?
The Tap is broken off flush with the trunnion(round), I have tried drilling down the center of the tap with no results.
Anyone have any ideas?
I was thinking JB Weld the guide in. Or actually weld it into place. Has anyone done this? What were the results?
What form of welding should I use? (I have limited knowledge of welding so please excuse my ignorance)
If anyone could help me that would be great, And please no negative comments
I would recommend drilling out the tap stub lodged in the hole and drilling a size larger.
Next time clean the hole out so that there is no steel shavings before you start with the tap.
Oil the hole real good and only turn the tap 1/16 turn and back out each time.
If the tap ever feels like it is about to twist and snap, stop and reverse it.
I couldn't suggest using JB weld. Real steel welding would work but good luck with that.
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my762buzz that is a great picture and definitely shows how a deeper bullet guide helps in terms of feeding expanding ammunition. IMHO if you are going to be using your saiga to hunt game, retaining the integrity of the tip is mandatory in order to ensure proper expansion into the target.
After a bit of research it turns out that the Arsenal AK's come with a bullet guide that is much longer than the aftermarket guides available for saigas. I cannot find the post anymore but I believe it was post-apocalyptic who posted the picture.
Thanks
By the way yes it was
http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/topic/58811-bullet-guide-installed-on-saiga-762x39/
I wonder if I should do the same to mlne? After installing, I took it to the range, using a tapco mag i had some jams using yugo surplus. After a few mags it was feeding great.
my guide sits flush only sticking out in the magwell maybe 1/32''.
Should I reset it to stick out more?
Yes it wouldn't hurt to customize it.
You can also make one out of a piece of steel with a file and a drill.
I made a homemade one out of a saiga choke wrench handle. If I made a replacement, this time it would be longer.
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I may get dogged for this, and I'm ok with that, but I just don't get it. To me an AK is an AK is an AK. Sure there are differences cosmeically and mechanically but it pretty much sounds like someone's $500 build runs the same as a $800 Arsenal. Or maybe I'm wrong because I've only just got my feet wet in the AK world. Like I said, I'm ok with being the whipping boy, just throw some facts at me with the flogging!
I have a few saiga builds I personally spent my time doing and I own an Arsenal SGL. I know how much money and time is required to make one close enough to the other.
I wouldn't hesitate next time in buying another SGL.
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I was pretty much set on the SLR 21 until I came accross posts on other forums that say that alot of the parts are SAiGA only and things such as the bolt/ bolt carrier are not standard AK parts. This concerned me because I'd like to have a rifle that I will always be able to find plenty of replacement parts for and I would think that standard AK parts would be easier to find. As a result I looked to the SLR 107, but the price is higher and I didnt see one without the folding stock option; do the folders hold up well? I was also interested in putting wood furniture on it because I like the look, is this possible or will the reciever only accept folding stocks?
Thanks in advance for any info. Looks like you all have a great community here!
-Ace
The saiga 7.62x39 is essentially an AK74 but really a 100 series type which happens to be in the caliber 7.62x39.
The carrier should interchange with any russian or bulgarian 74 carrier. The bolt is a 74 type but is fit for 7.62x39.
Edit to add: Ok, I'm not completely sure about all the the SLR bolts
Spare saiga or SGL 7.62x39 bolts are being sold by kvar by currently but keep in mind you just can't swap bolts without headspacing. This would apply with any bolt swap if you dont want to risk excessive or insufficient headspace blowing up your rifle.
The good news is that Russian and Bulgarian bolts don't ever seem to break unlike certain Chinese ones that have been reported on forums with pictures.
If you managed to break a saiga bolt from normal use, please make a thread because it would be a rare event.
I been looking for such a thread for years and can't find one.
The saigas and SGL uses a 74 type firing pin and a 74 type extractor shaped for 7.62x39.
Kvar has these also for sale.
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The first time I installed a bullet guide I quickly realized how installing closer to the mag increases the bullet rise. Its all geometry.
Rounding and smoothing the front edge really helps prevent any tips catching.
Picture below: Left frame - guide is barely into the well toward the mag.
Right frame - guide is much deeper into the well.
Strike point is indicated by the arrows.
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i have a zigzag brake installed but its on permanently for state compliance. there are no signs of deflection nor flaking. i always clean with foaming bore cleaner and remoil, just run patches down until it shines. i dont use brushes to scrub the bore. so its wierd
Ok, I just got to ask because I think this gets left out sometimes.
Have you ever lubed the barrel bore with any oil and not wiped it out dry before shooting?
Have you checked your bore for bulges? Sometimes you really got to look closely.
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Any chance that they come over as 10rd single stack rifles and are converted to double stack by Arsenal with the appropriate 922r compliance parts.
I can't find any welded linkage pin holes on mine so I am going to propose a basic hypothesis.
They might be arriving in some variation with the trigger forward already.
We know the trigger guard is Bulgarian, so we can probably assume Izhmash didn't install it at the factory. I'm not sure why they would ship an Arsenal injection molded US made trigger with it either, just so we could have it in the right spot when Arsenal opens the box. If anything they probably ship without a Russian FCG at all, or as suggested in the sporter location but ready to drop out.
Just thinking outloud
Z
Ok, with this version a US trigger guard can be riveted on fast and a bullet guide could too,and still no rear pin holes.
A quick furniture swap and its done.
Very little work left for the crew at Arsenal.
I agree with you and they only coat the parts they make.. They may coat, but it sounds like they don't do as good as job as the Izhmash factory !!!!! What all parts did the coating come off easy, cause that will let use now who....
The trigger guard and oddly one of the lower bayonet lugs. The lower bayonet lug was probably just touched up from a scratch while at Arsenal but I am not really sure why on this part.
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Any chance that they come over as 10rd single stack rifles and are converted to double stack by Arsenal with the appropriate 922r compliance parts.
I can't find any welded linkage pin holes on mine so I am going to propose a basic hypothesis.
They might be arriving in some variation with the trigger forward already.
We know the trigger guard is Bulgarian, so we can probably assume Izhmash didn't install it at the factory. I'm not sure why they would ship an Arsenal injection molded US made trigger with it either, just so we could have it in the right spot when Arsenal opens the box. If anything they probably ship without a Russian FCG at all, or as suggested in the sporter location but ready to drop out.
Just thinking outloud
Z
Ok, with this version a US trigger guard can be riveted on fast and a bullet guide could too,and still no rear pin holes.
A quick furniture swap and its done.
Very little work left for the crew at Arsenal.
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Talked to Arsenal today about the SGL series and they said the TG is US made.. So now we know the TG, trigger group, Furniture and muzzle are US...
Also when they re coat they use the same coating that's used at the Izhmash Factory.It looks like the same coating but on mine some paint remover ripped the trigger guard paint off pretty fast compared to the rest of the rifle.
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You can't remove it quickly. It replaces the rear sight leaf but incorporates iron sights. It's really pretty cool.
How much will the mount move vertically or does stay locked in place tightly?
I like this option much better for a forward mount than an ultimak. Far less heat likely so its safer for the optic and doesn't restrict access to the gas block.
Saiga 100 series form atlantic, half converted saiga out of the box
in Saiga 7.62 X 39
Posted · Edited by my762buzz
The left to right looseness is really not normal. Does your barrel have notches for the retainer to track through like circled in the picture?
I guess it doesn't hurt to ask.
Does your retainer have folded ears like in the picture below? It should.
Even though it does not have a heat shield on yours, does it have the heat shield slot also seen in the picture about 1 inch below the top right corner? If it does, you can buy a stainless steel heat shield for $4.19 that will snap right in.