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Open the floodgates, it finally happened.


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#1 GunFun

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 11:42 AM

I knew one of them would do it, eventually.

 

It was a race between Rem and Mossberg. But Mossberg had to make absurd jokes first, and Remington had to make guns like the R51 that make vodka special saigas seem like the gold standard of QC.

 

image013.jpg

 

The commoners will come around in droves now. I predict within 5 years all the major brands will have box fed auto loaders.

 

Wanna bet Remington has a model called the  "VersaMag" within a year?

 

http://www.thefirear...e-fed-shotguns/

 

Goofy place to put the mag release, but I suppose it isn't an 870 if the controls are in the logical location.


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#2 Mullet Man

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 02:47 PM

I bet that mag release works just like it would in the traditional AK position.
It's just left more susceptible to accidental release.
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#3 Heartbreaker

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 05:19 PM

Due to the 870 slide release they couldn't put the magazine release at the back. Hopefully Mossberg makes one and puts the release in the right place. I won't buy any new Remingtons because the QC is crap and the controls are goofy, plus those magazine lips look sketchy.
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#4 Ronin38

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 06:44 PM

I find the controls on the 870 much easier to use than the 500. Guess I'm goofy too. And I'm okay with that.  :D


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#5 Heartbreaker

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:12 PM

I find the controls on the 870 much easier to use than the 500. Guess I'm goofy too. And I'm okay with that.  :D


I'm not saying Remmy controls don't work or can't be learned effectively, but on my Mossberg I can use all the controls quickly without breaking grip. But it's besides the point, the QC issues are a deal killer.
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#6 GunFun

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Posted 13 December 2017 - 07:14 PM

I find the controls on the 870 much easier to use than the 500. Guess I'm goofy too. And I'm okay with that.  biggrin.png

 

Except the Mav 88 is what they both oughta be in layout...


I agree with the magazines lookning hokey.

 

Normally, I would say that a major US manufacturer can't afford to tarnish their name with a badly developed product launching what must be intended as the first of a line, but well, Remington.



#7 evlblkwpnz

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Posted 17 December 2017 - 09:40 PM

Remington warranty= 1 year from date of manufacture

 

Mossberg warranty= 10 years

 

Wait for the Mossberg. I saw a guy get completely shafted by Remington on an 870 that had an undeniably defective barrel and they stiffed him because it was out of their BS warranty. They had the audacity to tell me they would sell him a barrel ( I took the time to call for him). Really? Sell him one? They should have sent him one for free. He will probably never buy another Remington after that CS experience. The guy bought the gun and didn't fire it until about a year. It would not eject, chamber was rough. One half of the bore was beautiful, the other half looked like the bore was cut with a rock through the entire length of the barrel. Something was drifting during the bore machining process. Way to go Remington QC.

 

ETA: Well, at least these MFGs are going in a direction other than 19th century tech (tube fed). No more tweaked cartridge stops, broken cartridge lifts, plug to pull out of the tube etc.


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#8 Juggernaut

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Posted 18 December 2017 - 03:14 AM

... and we're gonna bypass the manual of arms on every other box fed mag firearm ever made!!!


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#9 GunFun

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 03:30 PM

I'm not looking to buy one, but after a couple cop shops do, and more people get them, I think it will overcome the popular resistance to the form factor. I figure as a rule for almost any market, the second major player in will have the nicer product.

 

On the whole I think this is a good thing for shotguns, even if that is a hokey workaround looking product. It is odd that they don't package it with a 2 round and a 10 round mag, because the main selling point for the 870 crowd would be, more rounds than your standard tube, and a fast reload. 


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#10 evlblkwpnz

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 10:39 PM

Yes, it does scream afterthought, lol.


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#11 GunFun

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 09:58 PM

Oh and a simple gate would solve the problem with the placement of the mag release. The design flaw will likely be solved immediately by either Rem or the aftermarket. There will be a couple sheet metal wings on either side of the lever, so you have to use the tip of your finger to activate the lever, but can't bump it with your wrist. That will fix it.



#12 GunFun

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:05 PM

 

I find the controls on the 870 much easier to use than the 500. Guess I'm goofy too. And I'm okay with that.  biggrin.png


I'm not saying Remmy controls don't work or can't be learned effectively, but on my Mossberg I can use all the controls quickly without breaking grip. But it's besides the point, the QC issues are a deal killer.

 

 

Mossberg 500 safety is in the wrong place IMO too. It works for large hands, and only works with conventional stocks. On a pistol grip gun, it forces you to break firing grip. For medium small hands, like mine, I've always had to break firing grip a bit and slide back. Even then, it is not a fast motion of the thumb like flicking the lever on an AR or most pistols. It is a clumsy slide. Worse, if you have a Win shotty, they put it in the same place, and IIRC they slide in opposite directions. I know that was the case with the s&W shotguns. So your manual of arms is always a guessing game if you own more than one of them.

 

I like the Ithaca layout, but they still have all the complexity of a tube gun, and manual action.

 

That said, I like choices. I've always rankled at people saying a gun is wrong just because it doesn't use the most popular system. I like the mag release on the trigger guard as done with many euro pistols and a few rifles. I have a .22 that put the mag release into a divot in the front strap, and I LOVE that. Others hate it, but to me it is far more natural and ambidextrous than the 'normal' way. I like the cross bolt style safety as found on Mav 88 or a 10/22, and can put up with the awkward placement on an 870. If you find the slider on the tang is handy, I'm sure you won't let my distaste slow you down a bit. 


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#13 Heartbreaker

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:43 PM

I find the controls on the 870 much easier to use than the 500. Guess I'm goofy too. And I'm okay with that.  :D


I'm not saying Remmy controls don't work or can't be learned effectively, but on my Mossberg I can use all the controls quickly without breaking grip. But it's besides the point, the QC issues are a deal killer.
 
Mossberg 500 safety is in the wrong place IMO too. It works for large hands, and only works with conventional stocks. On a pistol grip gun, it forces you to break firing grip. For medium small hands, like mine, I've always had to break firing grip a bit and slide back. Even then, it is not a fast motion of the thumb like flicking the lever on an AR or most pistols. It is a clumsy slide. Worse, if you have a Win shotty, they put it in the same place, and IIRC they slide in opposite directions. I know that was the case with the s&W shotguns. So your manual of arms is always a guessing game if you own more than one of them.
 
I like the Ithaca layout, but they still have all the complexity of a tube gun, and manual action.
 
That said, I like choices. I've always rankled at people saying a gun is wrong just because it doesn't use the most popular system. I like the mag release on the trigger guard as done with many euro pistols and a few rifles. I have a .22 that put the mag release into a divot in the front strap, and I LOVE that. Others hate it, but to me it is far more natural and ambidextrous than the 'normal' way. I like the cross bolt style safety as found on Mav 88 or a 10/22, and can put up with the awkward placement on an 870. If you find the slider on the tang is handy, I'm sure you won't let my distaste slow you down a bit.
I have large hands so the slider is easy to use. But what I'd really like is a Mossberg with a Garand style safety. That would be superb.
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#14 GunFun

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 12:46 PM

There are a lot of people who think having a safety inside the trigger guard is a great idea... Okay, there aren't very many of them. I do find garand style safeties convenient, but they probably are more prone to fumble mistakes.



#15 Mike Davidson

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:26 PM

I bet it doesn’t take 5 years for all the majors to have a detachable mag fed! It fact I predict it isn’t long before the most of them have them with double stacks! Also just announcing first doesn’t make Remington first. The best I can tell Remington hasn’t shipped any to distributors yet. If so please point me to them so I can get a sample. I can’t beleive Remington went with a magwell and a screwed on one at that... That mag release in the front is rather odd. Seems brush and such would run down the underside right to it. And 3 and 6 rd mags??? Maybe someone should have told Remington that a lot of guys already have their hunting shotgun and a good number of those are their grandpa’s old gun... Sure, some Rambo hunters will jump on it but typically while hunting when you become empty your prey is dead or gone when you are empty. I sure don’t like the looks of those feedlips either. Not much around to support them and once larger capacity mags come out it will be that much more weight to help damage them when dropped. Seeing that they are integral to the mag if they are damaged it’s not going to be a simple swap out for new feedlips. I’m not saying it’s a horrible gun design or anything or that it won’t sell. It’s not going to sell a fraction of what they think it will. Sure looks like they rushed it to market to me. I’m eager to get a look at it in a few weeks at Shot Show.

#16 Mike Davidson

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Posted 31 December 2017 - 09:36 PM

I have hear that Black Ace has filed a patent infringement lawsuit against Remington over the 870 DM. Not sure if it’s true but it came from a reliable source deep in the industry. I have read Black Ace’s patent and I hate to say it but it’s not a very strong patent at all. The patent is for a receiver to replace the receiver on an existing firearm using the factory parts. See what I mean? By the letter of the law the receiver IS the firearm. Replace that and you have a totally new firearm. Hopefully Black Ace doesn’t go wasting a bunch of money trying to fight it because there is just no winning for them on this one.

#17 GunFun

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 04:55 PM

I kinda hope they try and fail. Black Aces always seemed to be a shady company pushing dodgy products. 

 

If you look at the jump the shells have to make at a steep angle on their kits, it is clear why there have been so many of their customers here trying to make their guns work, because black Aces refused to do customer support. It's just an inherently flawed design that can't be fixed with a bit of deburring.



#18 GunFun

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 05:00 PM

 Also just announcing first doesn’t make Remington first. The best I can tell Remington hasn’t shipped any to distributors yet. If so please point me to them so I can get a sample. 

 

They've been sending samples to a few of the usual bloggers, youtubers, and gun rag writers.

 

They are far from first. There have been benelli and norinco and a few turkish stick mag fed shotguns for decades. Also Spaz whatever came after 12...

 

As for calling "first" you can get away with it if you are a big brand, you are not first, but your customers don't know better. Ask Steve Jobs. He made billions selling "firsts" that were really fourths or fifths.



#19 Mike Davidson

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 05:34 PM

I kinda hope they try and fail. Black Aces always seemed to be a shady company pushing dodgy products.

If you look at the jump the shells have to make at a steep angle on their kits, it is clear why there have been so many of their customers here trying to make their guns work, because black Aces refused to do customer support. It's just an inherently flawed design that can't be fixed with a bit of deburring.

I know I didn’t appreciate him telling people I wanted him to finish development of the double stack. It didn’t need that, it needed a host gun. At the time I contacted them I didn’t realize their guns were so troubled. He even referenced my double stack patent in his patent as a potential magazine for the design. When I contacted him he said he wasn’t interested in the design. I’m guessing by that time sales had bottomed out over the bad gun design.

But as far as his patent goes I’m sure it provides exactly zero protection from anything. Had he used a patent attorney that also understood the gun laws they would have told him so. I tried to tell him but he definitely didn’t want to hear it. I even used the loophole created by the definition of law that made these non-nfa shotguns possible. The receiver is the firearm by definition of federal law. Therefore his patent that uses a new receiver to modify an existing firearm is impossible because the receiver is the firearm and if you replace the receiver you have an entirely different gun and you haven’t modified an existing firearm.

It will be dismissed by almost any judge before it starts just as soon as the defense very simply points this out. Under federal law his patent isn’t possible. I’m betting he thinks he can bluff his way through to an out of court settlement. I’m betting anyone major will laugh this off in the board room while shaking their heads at the lunacy.

On the Black Ace design. It sounds like they needed to go with less extension off the bottom of the receiver and lock the mag deeper in the receiver. Is that the case? I’ve only seen pics and never one in person.

#20 GunFun

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 05:51 PM

Yeah. Working from old pics not first hand. Their design worked to avoid cutting into the bottom of the receiver. It was basically a tacked on magwell. They basically made a magwell for saiga mags. Then the front edge of the shell was stripping about 5/8" low of the barrel. So the solution was a follower that sticks up higher and has a very steep feed angle to make the jump. The shell is going into the barrel at about a 45* angle. Needless to say, this makes the shell crimp length a critical variable, and would tend towards there being a technique to shucking the slide right to make it pinball into the chamber. It doesn't help that shells vary widely in length, taper at the leading edge, where the center of mass is (natural pivot point during any uncontrolled feed moments.) Clearly, the closer to a straight push the mag makes the less chance of a bobble. 

 

They didn't want anything non-reversible, but IIRC they ended up there anyway.



#21 Mike Davidson

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Posted 02 January 2018 - 11:44 PM

45° is WAY too much!! Holy crap! It’s no damn wonder... That puts you on the knife edge of pressure prying the rear away from the chamber instead of toward the chamber. Way too many variables that could throw it the wrong direction and bind.

#22 GunFun

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 01:02 PM

I should note, that the angle may not be exactly 45*, that is a description from memory of pictures helping a guy on this site trouble shoot his. It is something close to that angle. Absurdly steep. They are selling what is clearly a product which made it into the first or second mock-up stage of protyping, and they said "good enough".

 

Part of why I consider them to be a shady business. They are willing to sell a product they know isn't developed enough to work well.

 

-- Not unlike the promag 10/22 drum I bought years back which required a shell to hit nose in to a sharp flash line on a zinc cast feed ramp, then suddenly jump ~.3" upward over about the same distance of travel. It would cut the lead, and bend each shell into a macaroni noodle if you tried it in the gun. It couldn't work. It didn't need polish, it needed more design. They were selling those knowing they couldn't work for any customers at $75 each while they released a new design, which did work. No recourse for the early adopters or those like me who were dumb enough to pre-order. 

 

I know you had your own frustrations with preorder, and your customers were a bit frustrated too. But no one could accuse you of being satisfied with releasing an under performing product, or leaving a customer with defective kit. I know of several people who screwed up their own drums though ignorance and rasps that you sorted out on your own cost. I'd buy from you. I would not buy from promag or black aces.


PS. Please put your patent to use on the DS mags, or maybe do a collaboration with CSSpecs. They are a stand up company. 



#23 Mike Davidson

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Posted 04 January 2018 - 11:55 PM

Thanks, GunFun! I definitely don’t want to sell anything that’s junk. People work too hard for their money to have it scammed out of them. I have zero respect for people or companies that are ok with doing that to others. I’ve also have a hard time with the business strategy of not speaking out about such things if it’s your competition or someone in the same industry. That’s a flawed stratagy. If the competition or peer doesn’t like the fact then change the fact... All I know is if I see junk I will call it junk, lol. I trust that the majority of the customer base is tired of junk just as much as I am and will respect me for it rather than blame me for speaking out... Red blooded Americans are so tired of this politically correct bullshit of not calling a ♠️ a ♠️... I too bought one of the junk 10/22 drums as well... With all that said I will say that the Promag Saiga-12 drum is probably their best working product that I know of. Maybe I should have put my design a little closer to the failure zone so when they scanned it for the key dimensions maybe theirs would have fell out of working spec, lol. But even there the changes they made for ease of manufacturing to reduce costs has made it completely inferior in basically every regard. It’s a lot heavier, it has way more friction going on, the material isn’t anywhere close to as strong, etc, etc. I just heard of someone dropping one loaded in the cold and it exploded! That is not going to happen with mine. It probably wouldn’t happen if you slammed it on the ground... I see other shotgun drums for other guns that are so thin, on top of using inferior material, and can only guess what would happen there. I just can’t cut corners like that and be ok with it. I’m all about reducing costs but not if it means a drop in reliability or durability. If people knew what a few more pennies per part could actually get them in quality there would be an outcry and these other companies would change their ways or die... I know of a patent Promag infringed upon and got called on it. When the patent owner opened up the copy he found an imperfection from his own product that was cut right into Promag’s molds. This means they laser scanned his product and rolled with it with no refinement of the scan. Laser scanning even to this day isn’t perfect. The 3d file it makes requires human inspection to make sure everything measures up. By then cutting the imperfection in their infringing copy basically told me that they scan and roll with it not caring about the imperfections with a close enough attitude. Likely why the majority of stuff doesn’t work well. The imperfection in the original was caused by a cutter putting a dimple in a surface. It wasn’t repaired in the original because it wasn’t in an area that mattered. When the infringing part was inspected that flaw had been cut into the copy, lol. The patent owner made those molds worthless for them after a little legal action too... That’s the story I hear from someone close to it at least.

I really don’t think it will be long before the doubles are mainstream and widely accepted as possible and reliable. I’m going to have my eyes focused on Shot Show in a couple weeks to see what happens there. I’m actually attending it so if I see anything promising I post the potentials here.

I would love to see a double stack available for the Saiga-12. I’m just worried the market is so saturated with magazines for it already. I also wouldn’t want to try and charge a premium for double stacks and their price would be based on capacity. So a 10rd double stack would be roughly the price of a 10rd single stack. That would likely cause all the single stack producers to have to drop price in a pretty major way because at the same price as a double stack they could basically forget selling many more...

I did speak to CSSpecs a few months back They were a little concerned about stamping certain angles and features. They said they were covered up until after the first of the year. Maybe they will contact soon. Steel double stacks would be awesome. I hate to hear that something is impossible and in there defense that isn’t what they said... I just had seen many stamped parts with sharper angles, more material stretching, etc. An example of such talk is when people said you can’t stamp the belly on the underside of a PKM receiver when it has been done that way for decades already, lol! But again, CSSpecs didn’t say it was impossible or even that the couldn’t do it, just that it could be tough. There is a very big difference is saying it won’t be easy vs. saying it can’t be done. Also a big difference is saying no one can do it vs. we can’t do it here.
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#24 InTTruder

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 07:48 AM

And Remington now in Chapter 11 or other protection for bankruptcy?



#25 GunFun

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Posted 14 February 2018 - 05:15 PM

I think Rem brand will end up getting purchased by someone who wants to have a solid brand eventually, rather than a hedge fund. We'll see.






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