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pedal2alloy

Double stacks have arrived (from Mossberg)

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I want to known if these can be modded to fit the siaga 12. Looks very close to an accual fit

If it wasn't $100+ per mag I would absolutely get one to try.

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Thats nuts! But, how much does a 20 round drum cost? I would pay 100$ for a stick 20 round double stack mag if I knew it worked. I sold my 20 round drums because theu were so big, uncomfortable, and I could not fold my stock.

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I want to known if these can be modded to fit the siaga 12. Looks very close to an accual fit

If it wasn't $100+ per mag I would absolutely get one to try.

 

meh im gonna get a mag vefore i ever get a gun.... they cool just to have ....like mike said in diff thread, or on TFBlog, 20 rd drum was 100 bucks, so at the moment you paying for capacity and the early adopter factor.... look at ruger, giant manuf, efveryone loves em, new gun comes out, you pay close to msrp cause demand so high....

if I knew it worked.

mike wouldnt let his name be associated with anything that didnt....

and mossberg not gonna bet on a new system that doesnt work.... and they wouldnt have paid licensing money for something that had no value...

 

aaaaaaand supposedly they burned through a whole pallet of ammo at shot show with no mag induced failures... purely rumor and hearsay, buuuuut i like the sound of it!

Edited by saltydecimator

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I think he may have been referring to it working in a S12, after modification, of course.

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I think he may have been referring to it working in a S12, after modification, of course.

Exactly. I'm not gonna spend $100 on something that might not be able to be modded to work, and couldn't be returned or sold after being modded.

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What will these double stacks actually sell for from Mossberg?  Will the mags fit a Atlantic Firearms Trench 12 "Firearm"?   So many questions.  So little money.  Only so much time.  But ... oh so much fun!  :)

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So I got to hold a 590 with these mags the other night.  With the way that the mags lock into the bottom of the receiver, it would be a difficult mod for an S-12.  While the rear feed lips look similar to AGP mags, the front of the magazine did not look promising for a tab.
 

The magazine itself looked decently made. I wonder about the weight of 20 rounds without some metal reinforcements on the feed tower.

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Screw a tab, magwells are the way to go. Why go for rock and lock ever, given that straight insert is a thing?

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This is still exciting for me, for future reasons. I am not a fan of pump shotguns, but I want one of these when the price settles and I have some other things out of the way. It makes my wheels turn.

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I kind of think it would be interesting to add a gas piston............

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It would probably be easier to shoehorn one into a 930, but presumably Mossberg is planning to do just that.

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It would probably be easier to shoehorn one into a 930, but presumably Mossberg is planning to do just that.

They will if theyre smart, double stack mag in a pump is a sick joke. Even in the 930 you still have a wasted tube, uneccessary weight, bulk etc..poor platform for this type of mag. Double stack deserves a reciever that was meant for detachable box mags from the get go. It would make alot more sense on the Saiga/Vepr(and clones) or a ar-10 based design. Still think MD couldve retained the sole rights to the mag body at least, let mossberg develop whatever feed tower they needed (collect licensing fees for mag body) and going that route,couldve just developed different feed tower portions to be utilized on different platforms(rock n lock,magwell saiga/vepr, ar-10 and any future designs). Instead of being limited to a single (possibly two) shotguns that not ideal. Im not buying this "s-12 market is dead" stuff, yes s-12/V-12's are not coming in now but theres more shotguns based on the kalashnikov pattern now then there ever was. And one thing is for sure..a mag fed semi without reliable mags is basically a single shot and or paperweight. Make the parts and mags and people will buy them if they are quality. Theres alot of kalasnikov based shotguns that will be reduced to scrap metal due to simple wear parts like extractors being unobtainable or even bolt heads and carriers.

Edited by Veprz

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I don't disagree. However, the shotgun buying crowd prefers "tried and true" over well thought out and efficiently designed.

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In this vid mossberg gives credit to adaptive tactical for the magazines.

 

 

When you look at the way adaptive tactical "venom" box mag system attaches, it is clear that they developed the feed tower portion and likely the magwell. They are most likely producing the complete mag.

 

https://adaptivetactical.com/products/venom-shotgun-system-10-rnd-box-mossberg-500-88

 

My guess is that mossberg took the already existing adaptive tactical "venom" system, had them tweak the mag release and attachment slightly, then bought out the double stack design rights from MD arms and boom..now you have the abomination known as the 590m.

 

One thing to note - adaptive tactical is still selling their "venom" box mag conversion and mags so evidently they were able to retain the rights to that system. Smart on their part..now theyre making money off of mossberg, making money selling conversion kits + their own mags, making money selling kits for remington 870 all while retaining the sole rights to their feed tower/attachment design. Thats how its done.

Edited by Veprz

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Ian from forgotten weapons/inrangetv giving his opinion on the doublestack in a pump gun topic. Its a video about the imi tavor shotgun but they get into S12/V12 and the mossberg ds mag pump. They start talking about it at 5.00 min.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjW4z6uirkg

 

"That strikes me as mossberg managed to get the rights to that magazine patent, mossberg doesnt do a (**not clear**) shotgun. So mossberg is using it as a lever to..heres why you should buy a mossberg, cause we have these mags and nobody else does"

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Ian from forgotten weapons/inrangetv giving his opinion on the doublestack in a pump gun topic. Its a video about the imi tavor shotgun but they get into S12/V12 and the mossberg ds mag pump. They start talking about it at 5.00 min.

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jjW4z6uirkg

 

"That strikes me as mossberg managed to get the rights to that magazine patent, mossberg doesnt do a semi-auto shotgun. So mossberg is using it as a lever to..heres why you should buy a mossberg, cause we have these mags and nobody else does"

 

Ian said Semi-auto at that point..

 

Which is incorrect I think.. Don't they make the 930, maybe he meant more that they are not really known for it?

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They make the 930 which is tube fed. Imo a poor candidate for the double stack, for one because they will leave the tube mag in place (just like the pump gun), which basically would serve no function and add uneccessary weight to the front end. They are also not regarded as reliable, and like many other traditional (non ak based) semi's they rely on fragile rubber o-rings and easily worn and dry rot prone components in their gas system.

 

I think Ian was getting at that they dont make a semi (or pump) that was designed to be box mag fed, which is true.

 

Imo, the doublestack being utilized in any of mossbergs current designs is a waste at best and more likely a completely impractical abomination.

 

Too bad you couldnt have worked out a deal with md arms, cause obviously youre not scared of producing products for obscure firearms. Which in the case of the S-12 pattern, actually seems to be the standard from which other box mag fed shotguns are designed around. Theres so many damn shotguns out there now that are S-12 mag compatible (or very slightly different, and could be easily adapted) its hard to keep up with all of them lol. I guess these manufacturers didnt get the memo that "the ak pattern shotgun market is dead", cause they just keep coming out with new ones lmao. These same guns are also compatible with other S-12 parts. Theres more ak based semi shotguns than EVER before!! Yes, thats right currently produced and sold. And good luck sanctioning the ks-12. Honestly this mossberg pump and a potential 930 semi are a joke.

 

The doublestacks are rediculously expensive as well ($94 for a 5rnd wtf!!!!) and thats from a retailer that generally has some of the lowest prices on mags out there.

https://gunmagwarehouse.com/mossberg-590m-12-gauge-5-round-magazine.html

Edited by Veprz

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I have a feeling that MD arms has a high licence fee so odds are it was a no go anyway... Like I would be ok with something like a 5-10% license fee since I am getting a concept not actual plans since it was designed as poly and it would need to be converted to a stamping, we would probably have about 5 months into the tool up, and then another month to address issues found after first production, assuming that there is nothing that dead stops the project.. I imagined from the start that MD arms wants a larger percentage, I never got to that point at all since the conversation basically never got to a punchline.. I kinda figure the checks from Mossberg or whoever is probably better than what I would ever have been able to do by 10 fold.. Odds are he does not want to rock the boat at all.

 

Can't say I blame anyone for not wanting to upset their cash cow..

 

The high pricing of the mossberg magazines likely are reflecting part of the licence fee or the complexity of making them... The 20 round is only $135 which honestly is not all that expensive compared with drum magazines.

 

I would still like to get a number for what the fee would be.. Maybe I can make it work. Barring that, the patent expires in another 10 years.

Edited by csspecs
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^ true the 20's arent that bad comparitively, that 5rnd is the worst bang for the buck by far. If (hypothetically speaking) I was ever to buy one of those mossbergs (never gonna happen) I would buy nothing but the 20's as they are the best value for the money.

 

On a side note, thank you CSSPECS for supporting our hobby and producing quality magazines that nobody else could or cares to make. You have offered options that are not availible anywhere else, making quality,functional magazines in capacities that are not availible even from the oem (and with superior materials at that).

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Guys,  I am not at all happy with the retail price either.  The high price isn’t because of me.  In my opinion the 20rd should be $80 at the most!

Also the patent doesn’t expire until 2033.  

My licensing deal may not be as lucrative as some think either.  It got them out and the world knows it’s possible now though.  I also now have a industry giant interested in protecting the patent which is worth a lot.    

The licensing agreement on this specific patent is only good for a Mossberg shotgun.  They can’t make them for other shotguns and I can’t license someone else to make mags for the Mossberg shotguns.  

That said I have a new patent in the works for another way to do double stack shotgun mags.  Technically it will be open for all and isn’t part of the original licensing agreement.   In my opinion my new design is even better than my first patent on a double stack.  This new design would be easier to stamp as well...  So much for a double stack being impossible, lol.  

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Last I spoke to ccspecs they weren’t confidant the internal geometry could be stamped reliably and they were very backed up in other jobs.  

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Bring it to market yourself. No excuses. We know you can and you'll do it better than anyone else could ;)

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