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Looking to pick up a Liberty 30-gun capacity home safe from the local Gander for $700. Do any of the members have a Liberty? If so, how have they served you? Did you have to have it delivered by their(Liberty) preferred moving company? If so, were they fairly priced?

 

Thanks!

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I bought a secondhand Liberty once, before I knew better.

 

Recognize one thing about most gun safes, they're not true Safes.

They're rated Residential Safety Containers, and most are built little better than a soup can... Seriously.

I can be in any Liberty in 10 minutes with a battery powered Sawzall by simply cutting a large hole in it.

11g sheet metal with drywall.

Even the Liberty Presidential only has a 7g body IIRC.

 

Just realize that they're only for keeping out kids, honest people and smash/grab druggies, not real thieves.

 

Still not 'Safes' but much better than most regular so-called gun safes are Sturdi Safes, Amsec and Fort Knox.

The gun safe product lines of these are built Much better, still not TL rated safes though.

But Sturdi can upgrade steel thicknesses to the point that they're on par with a B rated Safe.

 

I'm about to buy another such Sturdi Safe.

42x27x60, with 3/8" body and a 1/2" door.

Solid steel, not drywall sandwhiched between foil and called 3" thick.

Real bolts with full support, external hinges, no shear pins/clutches or worries about mechanical issues requiring a locksmith.

 

Differences?

$5000 vs $1000 and 1500lbs+ vs 800lbs

Thieves will not pry this open, nor easily cut with an axe, small power tools, or hammer the seams open.

 

Read, '11 myths about gun safe protection'

Want a real safe?

Look at Graffunder.

They're TL rated safes, the real deal.

They start at about $5600 and 1500-1800lbs.

Real Steel!

Edited by ChileRelleno

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When i had looked some time ago it was almost 300 bucks for delivery and it was a drop ship, i wanted to buy and pickup instore bit wasnt an option. I liked the 1/4 in plate instead of bolt closure for the inexpensive smash and grab protection. I never did buy since they advertised on safe but didnt stock and were doing bait and switch scam, and yes that was from gander mountain.

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Respectfully ...

 

Expensive does not necessarily relate to security.  Nor size.  Nor weight.  Talk to your insurance agent.  Talk to some lock smiths if you can.  Get educated.  Spending lots of money on false security can cost you lots of stuff in life including guns.

 

The insurance industry knows.  Different types and ratings of safes, fire resistance and lock mechanisms.  Most modern safes are junk.  Any crook can learn up how to defeat them quickly.  Required learning in prison.  Talk around.  Get smart.

 

Paranoia is good.  Consider buying used.  Strongly consider if you can not afford professional moving and setting up, getting some trusted buddies and wrapping that whatever safe and moving it quietly at 3 am early Sunday morning.  

 

We used to move big safes at that time.  3 am.  Sunday morning.  Absolutely quiet.  Usually 4 of us.  Professional movers.  The neighbours never knew we were there.  Cops notified before hand.  Licensed.  Bonded.  Insured. Back ground checked.

 

Edited extra paragraph.   Do not give detailed gun descriptions to your local insurance agent.  Especially serial numbers.  Not secure at all.  Some insurance agencies only need numbers and a value.  A goof video kept safe is a good idea.

 

 

Edited for s/s w/w s/p.  British Spell Check is a hoot to use.

Edited by HB of CJ

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Respectfully ...

 

Expensive does not necessarily related to security.  Nor size.  Nor weight.  Talk to your insurance agent.  Talk to some lock smiths if you can.  Get educated.  Spending lots of money on false security can cost you lots of stuff in life including guns.

 

The insurance industry knows.  Different types and ratings of safes, fire resistance and lock mechanisms.  Most modern safes are junk.  Any crook can learn up how to defeat them quickly.  Required learning in prison.  Talk around.  Get smart.

 

Paranoia is good.  Consider buying used.  Strongly consider if you can not afford professional moving and setting up, getting some trusted buddies and wrapping that whatever safe and moving it quietly at 3 am early Sunday morning.  

 

We used to move big safes at that time.  3 am.  Sunday morning.  Absolutely quiet.  Usually 4 of us.  Professional movers.  The neighbors never knew we were there.  Cops notified before hand.  Licensed.  Bonded.  Insured. Back ground checks.

Fully agree with ya HB/CJ.

Cost and weight are not everything and do not mean shit if it isn't built properly,

But steel thickness, sturdy locking mechanisms/bolts, proper building techniques and more do mean security, and those do equal cost/weight.

There is not one actual Safe out there that is either inexpensive or a lightweight..

Like I said, read. http://gunsafereviewsguy.com/articles/myths-about-gun-safe-theft-protection/ , it covers everything you're mentioning.

It'll inform anyone of what they're really looking for.

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Yep.  Modular is the way we are kinda considering right now.   Be sure to consider either the basement or a slab foundation.  If not, interior bearing walls make a difference.  Lots of concentrated weight per square foot over many years does strange things to wood frame construction.  Usually not good.

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All fantastic information, much of which I hadn't considered. Thanks, guys! I'll let you know what I come up with.

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Look at fire ratings and don't advertise what you own. No bumper stickers, no casual conversations about how many guns you own or what kind of safe you have. There's no reason for someone to break into your house with tools to defeat a safe unless they have a specific reason and are planning on spending an inordinate amount of time trying to get inside. Liberty will do fine to keep 99% of threats out (I pulled that number out of my ass, but you get the point). Even the cheapest of safes is better than nothing.

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Look at fire ratings and don't advertise what you own. No bumper stickers, no casual conversations about how many guns you own or what kind of safe you have. There's no reason for someone to break into your house with tools to defeat a safe unless they have a specific reason and are planning on spending an inordinate amount of time trying to get inside. Liberty will do fine to keep 99% of threats out (I pulled that number out of my ass, but you get the point). Even the cheapest of safes is better than nothing.

Agree with the foremost,but not the latter, especially the last.

99% of threats are curious kids, dishonest family/guests and smash/grab druggies, so yeah, but a serious thief, no.

Its been proven that concentrating valuables in a cheap RSC means they all get stolen in a break-in.

But without a RSC they're most often split up in various locations and thieves likely miss some, e.g. cash, jewelry, hidden firearms.

Edited by ChileRelleno
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+1 on a cheap safe making a thief's job easy. Thieves want SPEED, and do not care about destruction. If methmouth can throw a chain around your safe and drag it thru the wall - that is what they will do. 50,000 dollars damage to steal 5,000 dollars worth of stuff in the safe is not a problem for them. Any 'safe' that can be ripped out and dealt with somewhere else will get ripped out.

Edited by G O B
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If a steel safe is secured to the floor and wall properly I doubt it would be pulled throught a wall, who has that kind of time.

There is on most steel safes a hardened steel recess frame that would inpeed a saw.

If someone wants to get into your safe it will be by the lock.

one should have theft insurance for your weapons anyway.

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Point taken Chile, "cheapest" was probably a poor choice of words,  There are plenty of good safes in the $900-2000 range in my mind that will keep curious kids and the typical break in crack head out. I'm also looking at things through the eyes of someone living in suburbia with neighbors in close proximity. For those out in the country I can see this being a whole different situation. The other thing is "how much is your investment worth", or in a worse case scenario, the life of your kids or our gun rights. Unfortunately, far too many think keeping there gun tucked away in their underwear drawer is a safe place.

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If a steel safe is secured to the floor and wall properly I doubt it would be pulled throught a wall, who has that kind of time.

There is on most steel safes a hardened steel recess frame that would inpeed a saw.

If someone wants to get into your safe it will be by the lock.

one should have theft insurance for your weapons anyway.

Any one person with a battery powered Sawzall can be inside any Liberty safe in 10 minutes, i.e. pulling your valuables out of a gaping hole in the side or top.

Even the current manufacture, low budget Amsec and Fort Knox are using only 10g-7g bodies.

Sturdi starts with a 3/16" body, not the greatest nor an actual Safe, but much better than the average RSC, and you can add as much carbon steel or stainless as you please.

 

The most common methods used by thieves to open the cheap RSCs are to pry them open, cut a hole in them or hammer the seams open.

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If I wanted to get into a safe, I'd do it with a thin kerf cutoff disc on an angle grinder. It makes a lot of sparksand would make some noise, but it is very fast with thick steel. I would cut the entire door out of the front of the safe and let it fall forward. Bye bye.

 

This reminds me of an in-law of a friend of mine. Dude has Mosins in his safe and a Garand and a few ARs outside of it. Refuses to keep the Mosins outside of the safe and put the more valuable firearms in their place. He's one of those guys who is delusional about the value of things that hold little value.

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If a steel safe is secured to the floor and wall properly I doubt it would be pulled throught a wall, who has that kind of time.

There is on most steel safes a hardened steel recess frame that would inpeed a saw.

If someone wants to get into your safe it will be by the lock.

one should have theft insurance for your weapons anyway.

 

Any one person with a battery powered Sawzall can be inside any Liberty safe in 10 minutes, i.e. pulling your valuables out of a gaping hole in the side or top.

Even the current manufacture, low budget Amsec and Fort Knox are using only 10g-7g bodies.

Sturdi starts with a 3/16" body, not the greatest nor an actual Safe, but much better than the average RSC, and you can add as much carbon steel or stainless as you please.

 

The most common methods used by thieves to open the cheap RSCs are to pry them open, cut a hole in them or hammer the seams open.

With the average break in lasting only 5 to 10 minutes anything that retards access and removal will work most of the time.

Most gun safes are really not safes at all and fall below those standards. Most expensive gun safes are not tested for portable saw entry.

The word safe tends to lull people into a false sense of security as they do not match up to real safe standards and testing.

Even the best gun safe can be breached by a experienced thief in less than an hour but what thief has that time.

Value of your weapon investment vs insurance should be weighed. Guns need to be locked to keep the little ones in the home From getting their hand on them and to keep quick in and out theft of your guns to a minimum.

I have cabinet type that are bolted into a closet with no access to the sides or top and I have insurance.

Also gun safes that say they will hold a specific number of weapons are often short of their claim.

Are more expensive safes better than cheaper ones. Of course they are but most people have neither the money or the space for one but some security is better than none at all, hence the large market for cheaper gun safes

And if a thief really wants to get in your safe he will.

I guess it is what makes you feel comfortable in the long run.

 

I have a friend with a high point pistol it works well for the money but it is all she can afford

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"SAFE" Is a relative term!  A cheap tin box is 'safer' than leaving valuables on the table, but NOT by much. The knowledge of the fact you have things worth stealing removes the 'safety' of your 'safe'.  When asked why he robbed banks, Dillinger replied "Because THAT is where the money is." 

I stand by my words - if you have something that appears to be worth the effort it may be stolen very quickly in a 'smash and grab'. Bolt a nice safe to an outside wall where they can get a ton truck close by, and that safe WILL come thru that wall! ATM machines are stolen that way ALL THE TIME!  Even brick walls only take a few minuets to knock 2 holes thru and wrap a chain around it. 

 Never bolt a safe to an outside wall that is accessible from the outside. Better to put it as far away from the driveway as possible. 20' chains are easily found, but few criminals will have 50 feet or more.

MOST residential burglaries are kids looking for a quick score. Professionals will 'case the place' and be prepared to do whatever it takes to make you're stuff into their stuff . Insurance is the only thin you can do about professionals. That said, if you are burglarized by punk kids, they JUST MIGT brag to the pro's about what they saw in you're home.

 

Be safe - stay aware, don't flaunt what you have - it just draws unwanted attention.

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I think I may build my next safe in-place or in modules.

 

If your goal is making it take a lot of tools and time, and providing heat and water resistance, here's my thought. Build a box of 1/8" mild steel plate. Line that box with more leaving about 2" between them. Fill the gap with cement and  2 sheets of chicken wire.  Run a power outlet through the back side for later convenience. 

 

Use the door off of a commercial gun safe, but add a layer filled with cement to the outside.

 

  • Not going to bash through that with a hammer.
  • A grinder would be fast on the steel alone, but the concrete would mean you couldn't stick the skinny wheel in very deeply and it would eat discs like skittles.  The same tool would work for both, but I think it would be a matter of slowly burning up 6 or so skinny wheels to get through. If all they bring is a 4.5" mini grinder, it wouldn't go deep enough to get through the cement. and bashing the cement out would be a pain due to the chicken wire.  So, you'd need to be a well prepared thief, with a 7" grinder, a sledge, and some dykes. Then you would still have the inside layer to cut through.
  • An acetylene torch wouldn't get the blow through. Plasma would be a little easier to get a cut going, but that requires a lot more planning to have powered. I think it is very unlikely that thieves would have a plasma cutter, gas source, and a way to power it. So torch brings no real advantage over a grinder, plus it would get very nasty and fumy in the safe room. They would still need to deal with the cement and chicken wire, and they'd need a way to get through the inside layer without ruining the contents.
  • oxygen lance: looks at the above and laughs. cuts through wall easily as well as the contents in a pretty clean swipe. But no thief is likely to have the money, planning or equipment to get a rig like that in place.

Just a thought. You could probably come up with a more elegant door, but for the money that gunsafes cost, I think anyone with a welder could build a far more impressive safe of whatever size they want using this method. 

 

You could also build your own door with an RFID sensor on the surface putting out a digital signal to the internal lock mechanism. A cheap linear actuator  to shoot the bolts with a beagle board to control it and read the RFID sensor's signal could work beautifully.

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Tungsten carbide free spinning bars in the walls would stop sawzall and grinder attacks.

Great idea... Down side is cost. Most people could not afford the carbide rods...

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Spinning bars can be cut by simply drilling a hole throught the bar and sliding a nail through it before cutting the bar.

Also a lunch.

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Try drilling tungsten carbide!  Would need diamond bits for that.  Only a pro might have something like that ready.  Anyone thought of just using grade 8 steel?  Yes it can still be sawed, but it's going to be slow work.  A frozen 3/4" grade 8 truss bolt takes about 4-5 minutes to cut with a sawzall.  Stagehands hate it when that happens at 2:00 in the morning.

 

Really, I think we are giving these punks too much credit.  I'd expect them to fuck up the dial so you can't get in, after they couldn't get in.  And after the little shit drags it through a wall, how's he going to lift it into his truck?

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I think I may build my next safe in-place or in modules.

 

If your goal is making it take a lot of tools and time, and providing heat and water resistance, here's my thought. Build a box of 1/8" mild steel plate. Line that box with more leaving about 2" between them. Fill the gap with cement and  2 sheets of chicken wire.  Run a power outlet through the back side for later convenience. 

 

Use the door off of a commercial gun safe, but add a layer filled with cement to the outside.

 

 

Building a vault is relatively easy, concrete filled cinder block with a sturdy steel door frame is prime for a vault door.

Tolerances on the door frame are the big thing.

 

They make some half decent modular gun safes (RSC's), assembling them in some locations can be ideal, e.g. in a closet where the thief can only attack it from the front.

 

As for the DIY, your construction methods are exactly how most TL rated safes are built.

Tungsten carbide free spinning bars in the walls would stop sawzall and grinder attacks.

Now you're just thinking of fanciful designs.

The design difficulties and cost would be prohibitive, if they weren't then such would already be used.

Cheaper and easier to use thicker and harder steel plate and concrete.

Edited by ChileRelleno
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Try drilling tungsten carbide!  Would need diamond bits for that.  Only a pro might have something like that ready.  Anyone thought of just using grade 8 steel?  Yes it can still be sawed, but it's going to be slow work.  A frozen 3/4" grade 8 truss bolt takes about 4-5 minutes to cut with a sawzall.  Stagehands hate it when that happens at 2:00 in the morning.

 

Really, I think we are giving these punks too much credit.  I'd expect them to fuck up the dial so you can't get in, after they couldn't get in.  And after the little shit drags it through a wall, how's he going to lift it into his truck?

I was just being funny

 

Insurance is the way to go

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Because most people have a coke machine from the 70's in their living room! Lol!!😊 but you're correct... If they don't look...it works.

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