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MDARMS X CSSPECS steel dbl stack mag alive or dead?

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On 3/18/2019 at 2:08 PM, saltydecimator said:

And this is how rivalries are born. 

 

Will we see csspecs double stacks when patent runs out? Prooooiobably!

Lol.  I definitely don’t consider them a rival.   I explored the idea of a licensing agreement with them and didn’t like the resposivness or receptiveness.   Also they are a smaller company and that can make accountability trickier as far as royalties go.  Not saying I didn’t trust them or anything like that though but it’s definitly things to consider.

The first patent runs out in 2033.  Ccspecs brother had concerns certain geometry wasn’t stampable.  Another stamper, a giant company, said it couldn’t be stamped as well.  Honestly I don’t buy that though.  I’m not even in that field and see a super simple solution and have no doubt their are others.  I’ve never been much at settling for something can’t be done.  More often than not I have found its more the matter if it can be done practically and I’m confidant it could be.  The second patent hasn’t become official yet but will be good for 20 years from that date so probably good until around 2040.  It would be a much easier design to stamp.

Honestly though before the first double stack patent runs out I will have made a double stack obsolete.  😂

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oh good!  but you are not mastering the "Apple Art of Planned Obsolescence"  Edit post asap, delete that info, call csspecs on phone,  talk it out like old pals, and let us give ya guys upwards of $432.21.  then, when thats all run its course, you come up with Next Best Thing!

 

  obviously this is all tongue in cheek and hopeful wondering, buuuuuuuut....

 

honestly, though, gunfun is a lawyer, im sure he would love helping you guys come to an agreement?

 

so much teasing!!

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On 3/19/2019 at 4:12 PM, MikeD said:

Lol.  I definitely don’t consider them a rival.   I explored the idea of a licensing agreement with them and didn’t like the resposivness or receptiveness.   Also they are a smaller company and that can make accountability trickier as far as royalties go.  Not saying I didn’t trust them or anything like that though but it’s definitly things to consider.

The first patent runs out in 2033.  Ccspecs brother had concerns certain geometry wasn’t stampable.  

Yeah we make almost 100% of everything in house, so its not like you would be able to verify volume for sake of fees. Also there is normally a fair amount of loss from stampings to actual assembled sellable units. One slip while your welding certain parts and the whole unit is trash because there is not enough meat to get a good weld the second time... And heat treatment normally screws up about .5% bad enough that they just get tossed.

It is difficult to track manufacturer volume when the stuff is direct sales. I'm not going to allow access to my sales data, even my mother does not have access and she does our paperwork... That and my email list are things I'm worried about people getting their hands on.. You could get all the magazine designs and with a team of skilled workers not be able to make them work. There is a notepad of sloppy hand written shop notes that goes with the design and the designs are useless without them.

As for the stamping complexity. There is an area that one part needs to shrink and another part needs to get a fair amount larger. The way you do that is to use rib stampings to pull the excess metal out and a few more to control the stretching.. The question of possibility is more a question of how much does it cost. I'm nearly 100% confident we could make the shape, the question is how much does it cost to make the shape, how fast can they be made.

Your other big stamping guy is most likely looking from a perspective of progressive stamping.. And I can say the double stack is a big fat no for progressive stamping, short of some giant multi million unit contracts.

Honestly its going to be someone like me or injection molding.

Edited by csspecs

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That’s a definite reason a deal couldn’t be made.  No one in their right mind or business sense would give a licensing agreement to someone with no way to verify sales.  Any serious lisensing agreement comes with the ability for the lisensor to audit the licensee both on production and sales.  That is just standard business practice for things like this.  

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Fair enough.. Yeah if I can't be trusted to accurately report inventory without having my business getting a cavity search every few days. Then there really is no way to make it happen.. Plus the website only reflects sales made online, and the inventory only shows what I type in.

How would you audit production? Check how many sheets of steel I buy? the same stock is used in every product.. Check every one of the 200+ bins of parts? call up every storage unit in town to see what I have stored. The heat treater I use could verify tonnage but they don't know one magazine from another, and they are not going to give you my invoices unless I tell them... I just have no idea how you could actually verify production numbers if you don't trust the people writing them down.

Apple had one of their factories kicking out containers full of phones off the books for several years. So really there is no way to 100% guarantee manufacturing data is accurate even in the large scale. 

I seem to recall you had a similar issue with the gas adjuster knob you made under a similar agreement.. So it is hardly a unique issue.

Edited by csspecs

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It’s not that I didn’t trust you.  If I don’t trust someone they don’t get a deal considered to begin with regardless how good and protected it was going to be on paper.  The more talking that happens though the less I do trust in the sense of being an overall good choose for a licensee holder and the better I feel about having ruled out you as an option...  I doubt you could keep up with production anyways.  I built the drums in batches of 10,000...  If the market picks back up 10,000 wouldn’t cut it for double stacks...

Typically as a licensee you submit a monthly report and the licensor is allow to audit once a year.  It all just depends on the specific agreement.  There are ways to make production accountable but it’s not usually practices kept in place by smaller companies.  

The only issue I had with producing the Gunfixer Plug was Gunfixer not keeping up with their own records like they were suppose to.  And a little public complaining from them when I decided to make a much better plug and not produce theirs anymore.  I originally had plans to make my own from the beginning anyways.  I needed one to release right away though.  So I worked out a deal to produce the Gunfixer design. He had no means or capital to produce them in an affordable fashion or to market them in mass.  It was a verbal agreement.  I kept every word of my end but not so much on Gunfixers end.  We didn’t work in auditing of production but it would have been easy at the time.  At the time I outsourced the part.  I started making my own design in house.  It worked out for everyone for a while.  Gunfixer said he never received such a large check in his life and had to stare at it awhile...   Here is the big thing though.  I could have just copied his design to begin with and not offered a penny.  It’s not like it was a protected design.  I didn’t do that to him though.   Think anyone that copied the Gunfixer plug almost to a T gave him anything?   I contacted him and sent sent him 5 digit check...  Bet you or anyone else for that matter doesn’t offer me the same consideration when my patents run out and it’s no longer protected.   You almost imply I ripped him off with inventory claims with your placement of that statement.  Is that what you are saying? 

Unlike Gunfixer I do have the means to produce a double stack all by myself.  Did it with the drum, which was a much more complicated project, with a fraction the knowledge, experience or capital available and zero credibility with no past proven product...    I’d rather not take it all on again like that for a Saiga-12 double stack.  It’s definitely not that I can’t handle it though...  

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Not sure what happened there with some stuff being larger text.  I rearranged some with copy and paste and that’s what it did...

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I did not imply anything. Just that I recalled some issue existed related to inventory, not like I keep track of everyone business dealings. I have enough on my plate..

As for production volume, we can make around 3,000 to 4,000 magazines a month, maybe more but I've never found a product that had demand even close to that, so I've really never got to let the production line off its chain.. Normally we make batches of around 300-500 because on average that works out best for storage capacity vs demand. We just wrapped up a run of 2500+ magazines, six different types, which restocks those items for 14-18 months.. Having a 5 year supply of anything is just silly.

I'm not attacking the need for an audit as much as saying that anyone that was motivated to falsify records could totally do it since the entire audit is going to be checking data that was entered into the system by the same people who would be falsifying the records.. So the audit is always going to show that everything is perfect because the only record that the product ever existed are the papers they generated to show you.

You've likely always dealt with companies that produced part of a good under contact. So you have purchase orders, contracts, bills of sale, shipping documents ect.  That simply does not exist when everything is made under the same roof.

Edited by csspecs
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The only issue with inventory on the Gunfixer plug is that I ran out of stock.   I do recall him making accuastations after stock ran out and they wasn’t being offering for sale.  It became a hassle dealing with him.  His approach sealed the deal that their would be no more produced as well and hastened me purchasing my own CNC Lathe and producing my own design.  Problem solved.  Every single plug sold sold had his cut sent to him.  Had he kept his end of the deal and not came off with the accusations it is likely I would have ran a few more thousand of his design.  He can only blame himself that it didn’t last longer.    

The market is definitely dead but SDS sold around 3000 of their new 10rd mag within the first 30 days of it’s release.  I’m guessing that has dropped off since but really don’t know the volume after the initial release.  

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Yeah they rolled out a really cheap Saiga-12 magazine, and it looks like a lot of them went to dealers.. So not really surprising. Selling them directly as OEM helps, since there is a stigma about only buying original factory magazines.

Of course the SDS magazines are NOT factory magazines but are actually made by the importer, but hey how many gun buyers look that close? The market right now wants cheap... It may have demand for 3000 $29-34 magazines, but how much demand is there for a double stack is likely based on price. If the magazine is priced like the mossberg ones I doubt people are going to be buying 10 at a time.

And can people justify the cost over a drum? Is the double stack more or less cool looking? Hard to say without spending the money to find out. I have found forums not to always represent the average customer, forums are generally populated by enthusiast, the average customer is generally a casual buyer, and the ratio is something like 10 or 20 causal buyers to each enthusiast.  

So it is entirely possible to have something that a forum loves but has really weak sales.

Edited by csspecs
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A polymer double stack could look really nice.  Even cooler than an single stack actually.  Just knowing it has more capacity in a shorter length will help the look as well...  My vision for a Saiga-12 double stack is to have a comparable price to a single stack. Not some jacked up price that keeps single stacks viable...  What happened to the Mossberg mag won’t be happening again.  Not in price or design...   Prices of those have come down a lot though.  It’s easy to find a 20rd for $70 to $80 now but still high in my opinion.  

The truth of it is a single stack mag can’t even compete in a price war with a double stack.  It takes less material to make a 10rd double than it does a 10rd single.  That also means it will be lighter than it’s single stack counterpart.  Being shorter and closer to the gun will also mean it will be better balanced and will have less recoil and backlash forces on it as well.  Make no mistake that a polymer double stack for the Saiga-12 on my watch would be second to none, including OEM mags.  Making everything else VERY obsolete.  The market would be absolutely flooded with so many used single stacks...

I also have something that will make all prior drums just as obsolete as doubles will make single stacks.  Patent pending on that as well..

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These looks cool and are just straight slab side prototypes.  Wouldn’t take much ribbing, etc, to really dress them up either...

06DF6C53-F94F-4E24-B671-49777B7629D2.jpeg

5DE46435-FED6-4D58-BA09-9A49A0EE0C99.jpeg

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Also the Lynx was designed by SDS.  They provided all drawings for production.  They are the only name on the gun.  The contracted for it to be built.  Not the same as all those Turkish guns that everyone puts their own unique name and model on.   Saying they aren’t the manufacture is the same as saying Apple doesn’t manufacture the IPhone. 

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On 3/26/2019 at 12:42 AM, MikeD said:

These looks cool and are just straight slab side prototypes.  Wouldn’t take much ribbing, etc, to really dress them up either...

06DF6C53-F94F-4E24-B671-49777B7629D2.jpeg

5DE46435-FED6-4D58-BA09-9A49A0EE0C99.jpeg

Dude that’s so cruel lol. They look sweet.

 

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All but the 21rd I made myself with a FDM printer. The 21rd I hired out to be made on a SLS printer.  

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So they are more of mock ups than useable mags. They prove that the parts fit, and would feed, but recoil would kill them.

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It all depends really.  Some materials in FDM are only good for around 10rds.  Others are good for a few hundred.  Print orientation plays a big part in FDM strength and durability.  So many factors contribute and play a part in FDM parts.  I could write a book on it trying to go into them all and barely scratch the surface.  

SLS is much stronger than FDM.  It’s still no where close to injection modeled strengths and durability but typically light years stronger than FDM processes.  Rather expensive though.  

The recoil of a 12ga is really hard on printed parts that hold so much weight...  Great for prototyping but just isn’t there yet for any prolonged use.  

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OK to answer this topics original question.

I would say the idea of a collaborative project or licensed product is 100% DEAD.

So I'll be exiting this topic. If anyone wants to edit this into the start of the thread feel free to do so.

Edited by csspecs

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Thank you both for playing!

Thanks for the opportunity to buy steel single stacks csspecs, and for the forum discount code.

6D5CF3EB-1296-4003-8B3A-5726DA40EFF6.png

Edited by Azkamidaka
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I have 1st class mags from BOTH vendors. BUT...  they are as DIFFERENT as AK/AR.

I wish you both well, and keep doing what you do.

Does liking both polly and steel make a person bi-magual????

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4 hours ago, G O B said:

I have 1st class mags from BOTH vendors. BUT...  they are as DIFFERENT as AK/AR.

I wish you both well, and keep doing what you do.

Does liking both polly and steel make a person bi-magual????

You aren’t alone.  I swing both ways too. (Magually) 😂

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