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saltydecimator

i have a crazy notion as to why Mike D. bought an AA-12....

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got an email from armslist this morning about a semi auto AA-12 from sol invictus...

 

 

 

http://www.solinvictusarms.com/the-story

 

and over on barf a guy is posting pics of a post sample....

 

https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/This-shotgun-is-cooler-than-yours-/5-2110024/?r=-1&page=4&anc=72625433#i72625433

 

maybe im makin story of nothing, buuuuuut, ya never know!

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If they ever released a semi aa-12 how much would it cost? I dont think the origin-12 is a big seller and I have the feeling price is the reason.

 

How about mag compatibility? Im not sure the aa-12 is compatible with anything else. So at the obnoxiously high price they are sure to charge (based on their article and elaborate sales pitch) this will be a firearm with a severely limited market. Please dont tell me MD abandoned the thriving S-12/V-12 mag based shotgun market for this! That may be a even more sick of a joke than the double stack pump 590, and thats saying alot!

 

Even if this thing is really produced and offered for sale (IDK? Theres no pricing or availibility info on the site) it still will never offer everything the S-12/V-12/clones have to offer. For one because of the chunky one piece (?) stock.

 

S-12/V-12/clone is where its at in the tactical semi auto shotgun world, and heres why (go ahead and lump in the aa-12 with the other non S-12/V-12/clone semi auto mag fed shotguns).

 

theres more S-12 mag compatible guns out then ever before. When alot of these mags/drums were developed S-12/V-12 were the only games in town. Now theres so many Kalashnikov based shotguns out and for sale its hard to keep track of all of them! There is already a turkish and chinese clone of the V-12 being produced and sold (not yet in U.S. to my knowledge) its only a matter of time till we see them here. No other platform offers everything that the Kalashnikov based shotguns offer.

 

DURABILITY

 

-traditional semi auto gas system designs (mka 1919, sko, 1100, 930 etc.) use fragile rubber o-rings and wear parts that are sure to crap out at the worst time.

 

COMPACTNESS

 

-traditional semi auto's (1100, 930 etc.) have recoil systems that extend into the stock, so no folders. This is the reason why you will most likely never see a "shockwave" version of the 930 or 1100.

 

-Ar based systems use a buffer and tube, no folder or at least no firing more than one shot while folded.

 

-Pump designs can only be shortned so far due to the amount of travel needed in the action bars to cycle.

 

CAPACITY

 

-traditional tube fed semi auto designs (1100,930 etc.) have obvious capacity limitations.

 

-Non S-12/V-12 based semi auto mag fed designs (mka1919, sko, ar based etc.) use non standardized mags with less capacity options and no drums availible.

 

-Yes mossberg now has 590 double stack SMH! But its not a semi (and a abomination).

 

COMPACTNESS WHILE RETAINING CAPACITY

 

-traditional tube fed semi (1100, 930 etc.) when you shorten the gun, you lower capacity + no folder due to recoil system design.

 

-non S-12/V-12 based semi auto mag fed designs (mka1919, sko etc.). could potentially be shortend but do not offer the capacity options/drums and truly are the minority in popularity compared to S-12/V-12 based designs. A true limited market since there is no standardization in the mag design.

 

-magfed pump shotgun (870 dm, 590m). Limited on compactness due to the action bar legnth necessary for function. And at the end of the day..its not semi!

 

The S-12/V-12/clone market is stronger than it ever has been. All of the S-12/V-12 clones released and planned for release (S-12/V-12/KS-12/Cheetah/Lynx/ddi-12/trench-12/tri-star bull pup/RS1-S1/Ranger Tac-12 etc etc.) is evidence of that. Just like manufacturers are stepping in to fill the S-12/V-12 void left by the sanctions, manufacturers will step in to profit from the sale of mags, parts and accessories for these firearms. The only question is..who wants to make money? "The S-12/V-12 market is dead" is a damn myth.

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Last I saw an AA12 for sale, the list price was $13K with a brag that they could get them down to 10k if they got enough orders. 

 

So...

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Pretty over priced.  Even with the Stainless there isn’t $3000 of gun there.  Most people will be extremely disappointed too because the recoil control is out the window in closed bolt semiauto.  

They are riddled with design flaws as well.  They are basically all dialed in by hand and even then full of problems. That is why no respectable military would ever touch them.  You have to have drop in replacement parts and can’t expect to have an AA-12 expert everywhere to remodify the new part...  If you watch most videos close you will see them trying to hide jams.  Even the Future Weapons episode his 2 jams.  That should tell you something of a major production company didn’t have the time to get video without jams...  

I’ve been offering the guys that bought it help to work out the issues.  Most is pretty minor and crazy they have been missed for so long.  

Going to take a lot more to work out the recoil though.   It doesn’t hit hard but it really moves you back in a slow push and the moves forward with another push forward.  No recovery until all that motion is over either...  It like riding a slow wave.  They put a ton of gas in your face too.  Like no other gun I have fired before.

 

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1 hour ago, saltydecimator said:

i am disappoint!! haha

Don’t get me wrong.  There is a ton of potential in the platform.  The main guy working on the platform spotted some of the major issues himself before I even spoke with him so that is encouraging.  I offered a bunch of suggestions.  I hope they put the time into it.  I have zero doubt that if Max Atchisson had stayed on the design and production that it would have been right long ago.  

I would love so much to take the AA-12 to the next level.  That’s why I bought one really...  While I was a snot nose kid in the early 80’s Max was working on some the AA-12’s current form less than a mile away from my childhood home!  He made his conceptual prototype well before he moved to my area...  

I didn’t find that out until I was at a local gunshow with a MD-20 prototype in an early Tromix 12”.  That was September 2007.  An ol’timer called me over to a booth and asked what it was.  Then he told me he use to run with a guy that made a drum fed automatic shotgun a few decades ago.  I asked him if his name was Max and he came to life.  Said yeah and asked me if I knew him.  I told him no but knew of him.  He told me a ton of awesome stories about Max.  That when he told me the street his shop was on.  It totally blew my mind.  It occurred to me that every 20rd drum fed shotgun in world at the time had been greatly influenced by  and held some roots in my little childhood town.  

My first true love in a shotgun was with the USAS-12.  My copy of American Rifleman featuring it was a prized possession!  There was no internet at the time so it wasn’t very easy to see new guns.  Crazy...   The USAS-12 was an evolution of the AA-12.  Jerry Baber wasn’t the only person to get a set of modern AA-12 drawings...  The other guy tried to find a manufacturer to make it.  He found Daewoo and we ended up with the USAS-12.  It was greatly changed but the influence is still very heavy.  Just compare a bolt and carrier from each.  At the time I had no idea the AA-12 even existed.  That discovery didn’t come until much later with the Internet.

So after the double stacks were released at Shot Show all this stuff was back in my mind.  Thinking of my innovation in  magfed shotguns and thinking of its roots in my home town.  It had me thinking of the AA-12 again. Thinking of Max and his friend Bob.  Thinking maybe the double stack and another drum mag design I have a patent pending could help breath new life into the platform.  So I start searching it planning contact and found a video from around a year prior where Boje, Jerry Baber’s tool maker and designer, was offering the plans for a semiauto AA-12.  I immediately call and find out they have 2 semi AA-12’s actually for sale.  I laid claims on one and was driving to Tennessee to pick it up.  

I had in my hands a gun I didn’t think I’d ever get a chance to own.  I knew it was problematic from videos and speaking to others with direct experience with it through robotic programs before I bought it but didn’t care.  I had to have a sample in my hands...  I had no idea just how bad the problems were though.  After a couple hundred rounds that video I put up was the only drum that fully cycled without multiple jams!  It was the first drum we fired that day too.  After I fired it I thought maybe it wasn’t had bad as I had heard.  Or maybe it had been fixed.  I found out quick it was worse than I had ever heard and people had been handling the issue with kid gloves actually, lol!  I also knew the semi wasn’t going to have the same recoil as the open bolt fullauto but didn’t expect it to be as bad as it was.  It is so slow.  I’d basically rather have any other semi shotgun and just take the quick hard hit any day if in any real world situation...

So now I’m really turning.  I spot the main issues with the AA-12 over the next few days after getting it home.  Thinking how easy it would be to redesign it into the next level.  After encountering the recoil I’m thinking on that.  I end up coming up with a super simple way to cancel recoil.  I’m talking way better than the way the AK-107 cancels recoil!  So simple both in function and manufacturing that it is by far the best idea I have ever come up with!!!

I’m really thinking of Bob now and desperate to contact him.  I’m thinking I am going to figure out exactly which of the ten or so possible buildings it was that Max worked on the modern AA-12 design in.  Try to get into that building and bring the concept back home...  I dig out my number for Bob and it was no longer good.  I tear through  the Internet looking for him.  Found 3 different guys in the area in the right age group.  One had passed.  Looking into his relatives names I found his son on Facebook and he had a few pictures of him.  I had missed Bob by about 8 months.  He was 81 I believe when he passed.  I felt terrible because I had really wanted to meet up with him again for the past decade but never did and now I couldn’t never hear his stories again.  I also lost my link to the exact shop location.  I tried to contact his son through Facebook but he never responded.  I was hoping maybe he was interested enough to have asked where and may remember the location.

I wasn’t giving up though.  I search more and find the apartment Max and his wife lived in in Ohio before they moved to Georgia.  I found Max’s old lawyer. He is actually who bought the most of Max’s prototype guns including his original conceptual blow back operated AA-12 and the only transferable modern gas operated AA-12 ever built.  I tried to leave him a few messages at his law office but he would not call me back.

Still not giving up I search more and I find Max’s wife’s name and a phone number for her.  I call it and she answers and confirms who she is.  Said she had not had someone call her about Max in quite some time.  She was very friendly.  I asked her if she knew Bob and yes said, Oh yeah, lol.  She said Max always found guys that liked to shoot to hang out with...  Bob was definitely a gunlover and shooter.  Bob  was one of 6 people at the very first Knob Creek Machinegun Shoot, lol.   I asked her is she knew where the building was and she said she didn’t.  Something pretty wild was just the night before I was analyzing the AA-12 and it occurred to me that the AK had to be a significant influence in it.  While I was talking to Max’s wife I was telling her how I was considering trying to take Max’s design to the next level.  That’s when she said Max was influenced by the AK for the AA-12 than any other gun.  That blew me away!  All those years looking at pictures and videos of the AA-12 and the influence had never occurred to me until the night before and around 12 hours later I’m on the phone with the Max’s wife and she volunteered and completely confirmed it!  

Sadly my search for the old shop came up short.  I’ll likely try to reach out to Bob’s son again and Max’s attorney.  

Anyways...  I feel a strong connection to the AA-12 as you are probably realizing more than you cared to know about now, lol.  I almost feel it’s my destiny to help design and build the next step in what will be the most awesome and capable tactical shotgun in the world.  Double stacks, super cap drums designs, simple recoil canceling...

I stated my interest in teaming up with the guys that bought the AA-12 tooling.  I told them I could come down to Florida and we could be firing a modified semi AA-12 to test the recoil system I came up with in probably less than a weeks time.  Never really heard back from the brass there  that could make those decisions though.  I have a very strong feeling that if they don’t the will regret it as bad as Remington has to be regretting it right now that they told me they had no information of working on a magfed 870, after I heard they were, and I told them they would need double stack mags for it...  Lol!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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If you designed and produced a completely new design modern shotgun made for doublestacks I would absolutely buy one. Nothing against Cameron's C-12 but it doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

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yep, wish he woulda just built it instead of spending gigantour sums of cash on that gas tube assy thing...

 

great story about the history up their!  i know how ya feel about these white whales... i had a tree blow over in my yard in OKC, OK 6-8 years ago.... didnt save fruit or leaves or flowers... flash forward 4 years and still cant figure it out... been using it for BBQ but its "cultivar" is still a mystery...  hind sight is always 20/20 etc...

 

yes, most folks dont seem to mind talking on phone etc, kinda sad we lack in the history recording department in this hobby....

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