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Veprz

Takes S-12 mags?..check. Takes S-12 aftermarket parts?..check. Sold out everywhere?..check.

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You shut one crackhouse down..another pops up to fill the gap. S-12/V-12 junkies.

Latest S-12 clone in 13" braced "firearm" form. 

 

"-13 inch 2 ¾ and 3” chambered chrome lined barrel threaded for all Saiga 12 accessories.
-Uses all Saiga 12 magazines and drums."

Damnit I just dont know how these companies can keep screwing up and releasing more and more S-12/V-12 clones! Didnt they get the memo that "the S-12/V-12 market is dead"?  Are they too braindead to realize that the best time to pull out is just as popularity and multiple compatible models are taking off? To the point were there is sooooo many compatible models that its hard to keep track of them all?

Nothing kills sales of mags, upgrades and replacement parts faster than having more availible compatible guns for sale than ever before.  Those damn idiots at csspecs, carolina shooters supply etc..will just have to learn the hard way I guess? Damn idiots.

This is definitely a conspiracy theory between Trump and Putin to flood our country with S-12/V-12 clones and further the Kalashnikov agenda..this is sick! maybe cnn isnt fake news?

Who would want this, when you can buy an unwieldly, bloated, excessivly heavy abomination/gimmick like the mossberg?

Note: most of the commentary was intended to be sarcastic. I salute companies like CSSPECS and CSS who have worked hard to bring us the products we want and stuck with us. I am sure they will continue to take our money as there is more and more S-12/V-12 compatible guns availible.

Its pretty ironic and sad how now that there are more S-12/V-12/clones availible and in ownership, now there are less availible mags, accessories and parts.

 

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Amazing how many clones there are, and all out of stock!

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You're right its definitely a conspiracy theory. First they used oblama to spook the mag/accessory manufacturers with sanction talk, now theyre flooding the market with sooooooooo many damn new compatible models you cant even keep track. Its a form of psychological warfare where there is so many options your brain becomes scrambled and thinks there is no options (similar to 2 is 1 and 1 is none). The sick part is, CSSPECS and CSS must have had insider trading intel cause they stuck it out while everyone else was bailing. Its obviously a co conspiracy theory between Trump, Putin, CSSPECS and CSS to eliminate the competion and corner the market. Putin doesnt care because he gets a cut and furthers the Kalasnikov agenda all while taking the heat off russia. cnn said so..so thats what Im running with, no questions asked.

I was speaking Specifically of the aws spets-12 in the OP.

Thats a damn good price for a chrome lined barrel + gas block, 13" barreled with no stamp or wait, forged trunnion and bcg and with a $130.00 adjustable brace? How much were S-12 sbs custom work + conversion's going for a few years ago?  (Tromix etc..)plus cost of base gun, Plus $200 stamp and wait..no wonder the aws is sold out. 

One thing is for sure is they all are gonna need mags. Problem is theres many times more options as far as availible, non sanctioned S-12/V-12 compatible firearms THEN EVER BEFORE, but less mag and accessory options? Looks like CSSPECS and CSS may be getting a boost.

Shut one crack house down..another pops up to fill the gap. The real question is..who wants to make money?

Seriously why even consider mossberg? This thing has a shorter barrel, is semi auto and more streamlined..plus it comes with what is arguably the hottest brace out. Youre gonna need a double stack if you want to have any hope of keeping up with a semi. But then again you could add a magwell and still empty and reload the same round count as the double stack pump..even faster.

Edited by Veprz

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The reports I have seen so far (given it is still early in the game, and given its not hand built and tuned by a craftsman) have looked promising. If you felt the need to..this can be stamped and sbs'd ridiculously easy.

Even china is capable of producing top quality items if the demand is there and pricing is adjusted accordingly. You better believe their millitary equipment for their own use is built to spec.

What Id really like to see is K-USA offer a comparable "firearm" configuration of their K-S12. 

Edited by Veprz
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Initial reports describe typical "problems" running light loads. If that is a "problem" is dependent on what your intended use is. 10/22's have "problems" running light (intended for bolt guns) .22lr loads but you dont hear people crapping on the 10/22.

At least in the S-12/V-12's case..they were not designed or intended to be run reliably with the cheapest superlight loads. Thats an expectation that users of the cheapest bulk pack superlight loads came up with (aka plinkers and competitors); whos intent is to dump large quantities of cheap rounds fast and with the least amount of recoil and no concern for wounding capability. Ive never known a S-12/V-12 to be unreliable when using the types ammunition that it was designed and intended to use IME.

Being able to reliably cycle superlight loads while simultaneously not beating itself to death firing 3" magnums is a completely unrealistic expectation of any currently availible semi of any type. Show me an auto loading pistol, rifle or shotgun that can accomplish full reliability with mixed loads of the lightest to magnum with no failures, no damage and without manual adjustment.

Potentially it could be possible with the design and use of a spring loaded valve that would allow all availible gas through until a specified pressure was exceeded, at which point the spring pressure would be overcome and all gas not necessary for function would be bled or dumped to atomosphere automatically. 

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23 hours ago, Veprz said:

What Id really like to see is K-USA offer a comparable "firearm" configuration of their K-S12. 

ding dingding!!  give me a real gun with quality finishing and fit and ill beat a path to their door!!

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On ‎7‎/‎27‎/‎2018 at 10:54 PM, Veprz said:

 

Being able to reliably cycle superlight loads while simultaneously not beating itself to death firing 3" magnums is a completely unrealistic expectation of any currently availible semi of any type. Show me an auto loading pistol, rifle or shotgun that can accomplish full reliability with mixed loads of the lightest to magnum with no failures, no damage and without manual adjustment.

Potentially it could be possible with the design and use of a spring loaded valve that would allow all availible gas through until a specified pressure was exceeded, at which point the spring pressure would be overcome and all gas not necessary for function would be bled or dumped to atomosphere automatically. 

That isn't an unrealistic expectation in all cases, but there is not an abundance of people that know how to meet the goal in an exact balanced manner. I do it regularly and have one Saiga 12 that is near or beyond 12k rounds of shooting a wide variety of loads from 2.75 dram to max dram. Extractor springs and the dust cover is all that I have had to replace over all of that time. Much of that shooting was spent trying to break it while replicating the stupidest things I thought a customer might do (that is how the dust cover weld got broken) and trying to see if I had a perfected recipe for 6.5" SBS that will cycle from 2.75 dram and up. The key is keeping the factory recoil assembly and mainspring and tuning around them with a combination of minimal gas work and intelligently performed action work. Lazily and uncreatively, people , even shops, try to reach their goal with spring swapping and that is where it goes bad. The action work is the real magic and allows port surface increase to be kept at a minimum. It can be done. However, with a barrel that short (12" or so, I assume) and no gas system relocation, it is indeed  an unrealistic expectation

 

The TAC47 Autoplug kind of did what you are referring to in your last paragraph. It was indeed a wonderful idea, but was not perfected. They should have refined it more before releasing it.

1.jpg

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Beautiful work evl! That "krink" styled one is sick.

I dont believe this spets-12 is going to be comparable to a tuned S-12/V-12 built by a craftsman such as evl, Tony, Mike Rodgers etc..but I am glad to see more options being offered.  

I was hoping the tac-47 auto plug was going to be the solution to manual adjustment with reliability and DC.

Durability, lack of fragile parts (o-rings, rubber seals etc..), manueverability, furniture/accessory options, the ability to be shortened while retaining capacity, the ability to have a folding stock and function, the most standardized magazine design etc..the S-12/V-12/clones cant be beat. The kalashnikov based semi shotguns have no equal, everything else is a compromise. 

I wouldnt expect a Benelli M4 to reliably cycle the power range of ammunition that some people expect the S-12/V-12 to.  In my experience I have never known a S-12/V-12 to be anything but reliable firing the types of ammunition that they were originally designed for and intended to use (full power defensive and hunting ammunition). You dont hear people calling benelli M4 a turd cause it wont reliably run reduced recoil bean bag rounds!

The other thing holding the platform back is the stigma of being a "commie weapon of the enemy". Little do the people that hold that view know..the "commies" arent in Russia anymore they're here in the U.S.

Imagine Jerry Miculek running a S-12/V-12??

 

Edited by Veprz
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There is no other semi-auto mag fed shotgun that I am aware of that will take the abuse that the Saiga-12 will. A well worked one is absolutely an end of the world as we know it winner. Feed it ammo, keep something with you to remove the gas regulator and find something to scrape the crap off of the puck. GTG.

 

I appreciate the kind words. I give it all I have.

 

ETA: I'd like to see how quickly Jerry could dump 20 rounds with the evlblksbs (well, it was black for a long time, lol. evlkryptksbs ;)

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He probably has run them. Kay Miculek used to run an S12 built by Jack Travers before he fell apart.

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3 hours ago, gunfun said:

He probably has run them. Kay Miculek used to run an S12 built by Jack Travers before he fell apart.

Given that info, your right he probably has. They might have banned him from using one..unfair advantage lol.

Jerry seems like a great guy and all but on his youtube channel there was at least one video were he seemed to have fallen victim to the anti Russian propaganda. He doesnt seem to hold Kalashnikov based weapons in high regard. 

Either way, I know he could outshoot me using a bolt action v.s. me using a semi! The man is an incredible shooter.

 

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Quick Range Report:

It ran ok-ish on Wednesday. 

It was received dirty from test firing and on gas setting #4

I cleaned, lubed, and did a bit of pre-breakin of running the action by hand.

I was on an indoor range, so I was limited to buckshot or slugs.

About twenty rounds of Seller & Bellot 27 pellets of 4 Buck "1190fps" SB12BSB ran just fine as did a box of five Federal LE12700 1325 Fps 9 Pellets of 00 Buckshot on gas setting #3.

Seller & Bellot 00 Buck 9 Pellets "1200fps" SB12BSJ did not extract/eject on either gas setting #3 or #4. Tried about five rounds before giving up it.

At about 12 yards the Federal was maybe a 3-5" pattern plus a separate hole from the wad, the S&B 4 Buck was about 12-18" pattern.

 

 

 

Edited by Ratus
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Nice! Thanks for the range report. Keep us posted. The manufacturer states on their website that there will be a break in period.

 

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