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kwesi

Saiga 12 Bolt Head Damage

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4 hours ago, kwesi said:

A big thanks to all who are sharing their expertise.  I will need to sit down with the S12 and slowly read these posts over so I can hopefully get you the photo's requested.  It's just that my mechanical abilities are growing... 

Youve got to crawl before you walk, or if alcohol's involved you start walking but end up crawling lol. 

The biggest thing when doing any kind of mechanical, electric or metal work is to take your time. Speed comes with experience.  You dont want to rush because thats when you make mistakes.

Its always easier to remove more metal/material than it is to add metal/material back. When it comes to metal work such as fitting parts I always prefer the least aggressive method that will still be effective..I.E using a file v.s. a dremel because although its faster its also much harder to control the amount of material being removed and much easier to go overboard.

A dremel is great for things that arent critical and/or hard to replace.

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4 hours ago, kwesi said:

The one spot that I did notice was the small red circle.  Are you suggesting to take a small file and slowly knock off the burrs?  I can probably handle that.

I believe evl was pointing out that there has been contact there and that is where the peening is occuring. Also I believe he's wanting to see a pic as described in his drawing to try and determine if the reciever is bent at all. 

So lets say if the reciever was slightly bent, causing the peening/deformation..then filing that circled portion wouldnt actually fix the problem. I would hold off until he gets a chance to see the reciever, thats just my opinion.

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+1 I was just illustrating the symptom of the receiver being bent. Don't do anything yet, lol. Examine, isolate relevant symptoms, stare blankly, ponder, plan, sleep on it, revise the plan, and then proceed. If you get stuck at staring or pondering, seek counsel. A lot more time is spent on me thinking about these uncommon things that I do than actually doing anything outwardly. It is faster and cheaper than just doing and having to keep starting over. With a lot of things you have one shot or you just lost some money, just like this. Procrastination can be a useful tool as all potential pitfalls have been identified if you devote a little mind-time to it.

 

Get a pic from above the receiver, directly over the left side of the receiver, and a full view of the receiver. Stick a straight edge on the left side of the receiver and you will see what I am trying to get a look at. I can tell it has a pretty good bend in it from the pic you already posted, but I can't tell how extreme it is.

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That's what he was asking for, but it would be even better if the picture showed holding a straight edge against the receiver flat surfaces. The amount of daylight  showing through gaps is a lot easier to get a clear read on than a visual estimation of straight. Especially since some cameras have a fisheye effect (& maybe digital correction of same.)

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2 hours ago, Veprz said:

Well on a positive note, it looks like you have a clean and well organized work area.

LOL

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Well, couldn't do anything with any of it. It was worth a shot. Gunfun has the right idea. Stick a straight edge on the left side of the trunnion where the serial number is and note how much the gap between the straight edge grows from the front of the receiver to the back of the receiver. It may be shocking, but still is not the end of the world. Light under the weapon shining down on the workbench and less light on the weapon will make it easier to see the gap. If you can measure the gap just behind the trunnion and at the rear of the receiver, post those measurements. If not, take a pic with the straight edge on there so we can have a look. 

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46 minutes ago, evlblkwpnz said:

Well, couldn't do anything with any of it. It was worth a shot. Gunfun has the right idea. Stick a straight edge on the left side of the trunnion where the serial number is and note how much the gap between the straight edge grows from the front of the receiver to the back of the receiver. It may be shocking, but still is not the end of the world. Light under the weapon shining down on the workbench and less light on the weapon will make it easier to see the gap. If you can measure the gap just behind the trunnion and at the rear of the receiver, post those measurements. If not, take a pic with the straight edge on there so we can have a look. 

Thanks for trying.  Is the pic below the area that you want the straight edge photo?  If so then my ruler is about 1/8" too long.  I'll work on getting a shorter piece:

vwpxs7.jpg

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This feels like a comedy routine. At least one of us in this thread has a name like Zeppo or Groucho.... I'm sure of it.

Turn the straight edge 90* about its axis so that it is edge on to the receiver. The way you are holding it, your hand can flex it, thus negating its purpose. It helps if the light source  primarily is from underneath the straight edge so that you only see light where the contact is interrupted.

Hold the gun up to the light with a straight edge as described and you will see what I mean. That will inform your picture taking.

p.s. Don't get the idea that I am picking on you. You are asking reasonable questions and making honest attempts to provide the information requested. In short, you are trying to help others help you. Good job. That's actually a very rare thing.

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If my phone wasn't out of order, I would take a picture of mine to show what I mean.

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3 hours ago, gunfun said:

This feels like a comedy routine. At least one of us in this thread has a name like Zeppo or Groucho.... I'm sure of it.

Turn the straight edge 90* about its axis so that it is edge on to the receiver. The way you are holding it, your hand can flex it, thus negating its purpose. It helps if the light source  primarily is from underneath the straight edge so that you only see light where the contact is interrupted.

Hold the gun up to the light with a straight edge as described and you will see what I mean. That will inform your picture taking.

p.s. Don't get the idea that I am picking on you. You are asking reasonable questions and making honest attempts to provide the information requested. In short, you are trying to help others help you. Good job. That's actually a very rare thing.

Haha no offense taken.  Dirty Harry nailed it when he said “ every man’s got to know his limitations”...I’m more visual so pics are appreciated.  I’ve got my grand babies this weekend but I’ll work on it ASAP.  I appreciate everyone’s patience.  School is in session.

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From the photos, the receiver actually looks pretty straight, unremarkable. Would have to have the gun in hand to confirm, but from the photos It does look like there is (at least) bilateral constriction of the carrier path directly at the front trunnion.

Saiga 12 cycling issues are seldom attributable to just one factor. The guns are made from a combination cast, forged, machined, and milled parts,  and are assembled by hand at the factory, so cycling issues are not uncommon and can be fairly complex.

As Anthony (Evl) has pointed out, receivers are often torqued in one direction or another from the factory, and this is a primary suspect (when all things being equal) a gun simply isn't cycling properly.

IF mechanical constriction at the front trunnion is the issue, going after receiver geometry with a file is strictly "Appalachian Engineering". Don't do it.

There's alot of DIY advice on this forum, and frankly among the gems, is a  vast minefield of absolute turds. The best advice I can give you is to proceed carefully and cautiously, and  if after doing your best,  you find yourself in the minefield, don't hesitate to contact a forum vendor for professional work.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Lone Star Arms said:

From the photos, the receiver actually looks pretty straight, unremarkable. Would have to have the gun in hand to confirm, but from the photos It does look like there is (at least) bilateral constriction of the carrier path directly at the front trunnion.

Saiga 12 cycling issues are seldom attributable to just one factor. The guns are made from a combination cast, forged, machined, and milled parts,  and are assembled by hand at the factory, so cycling issues are not uncommon and can be fairly complex.

As Anthony (Evl) has pointed out, receivers are often torqued in one direction or another from the factory, and this is a primary suspect (when all things being equal) a gun simply isn't cycling properly.

IF mechanical constriction at the front trunnion is the issue, going after receiver geometry with a file is strictly "Appalachian Engineering". Don't do it.

There's alot of DIY advice on this forum, and frankly among the gems, is a  vast minefield of absolute turds. The best advice I can give you is to proceed carefully and cautiously, and  if after doing your best,  you find yourself in the minefield, don't hesitate to contact a forum vendor for professional work.

 

 

 

 

Yes sir!  I doubt I would attempt any mods other than a fine file to smooth out a burr. I do work on other platforms.

Does it seem odd that the stovepipes stopped, at least for 35 rounds, once I put in the low recoil forward recoil rod + the Gunfixr plug?

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18 minutes ago, kwesi said:

Yes sir!  I doubt I would attempt any mods other than a fine file to smooth out a burr. I do work on other platforms.

Does it seem odd that the stovepipes stopped, at least for 35 rounds, once I put in the low recoil forward recoil rod + the Gunfixr plug?

If that works for you, stay with it!

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I'll post a pic of what I am looking for later tonight. You need a metal straight edge that is confirmed perfectly flat down one edge. You do this by eye or with light on something nice a flat like a granite countertop if you simply do not have a good eye for things. What I am trying to find has little to do with the stovepipes and much to do with the bolt head damage.

 

Who's on first? ;)

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I just took a really good look at 3 receivers. 3 were almost straight and one was drastically bent to the left at the rear. The bent one was hardly fired before it came here and has the most evidence of the bolt head striking in the receiver at the trunnion  of the four. One has seen at least two owners that fired it and has very little evidence of the bolt head striking the trunnion. That one was almost perfectly straight. I was quite surprised. When I settle down tonight I'll try to post some pics. I have a lot of machine work to do today and my wife is out of town, so I may end up making a marathon of it and then pass out. Hard to tell. When the cat's away, the mice will play all night. I wonder how many other people are looking forward to working into the night on Saturdays? I do love it and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

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1 hour ago, evlblkwpnz said:

I just took a really good look at 3 receivers. 3 were almost straight and one was drastically bent to the left at the rear. The bent one was hardly fired before it came here and has the most evidence of the bolt head striking in the receiver at the trunnion  of the four. One has seen at least two owners that fired it and has very little evidence of the bolt head striking the trunnion. That one was almost perfectly straight. I was quite surprised. When I settle down tonight I'll try to post some pics. I have a lot of machine work to do today and my wife is out of town, so I may end up making a marathon of it and then pass out. Hard to tell. When the cat's away, the mice will play all night. I wonder how many other people are looking forward to working into the night on Saturdays? I do love it and I wouldn't want to be anywhere else.

When you're doing what you love is it even considered work? Lol. I guess it still is when you're working on other peoples stuff. 

Did the bent receiver  exhibit deformation in the same area as Kwesi's bolt?

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6 hours ago, evlblkwpnz said:

I'll post a pic of what I am looking for later tonight. You need a metal straight edge that is confirmed perfectly flat down one edge. You do this by eye or with light on something nice a flat like a granite countertop if you simply do not have a good eye for things. What I am trying to find has little to do with the stovepipes and much to do with the bolt head damage.

 

Who's on first? ;)

Thank you sir!

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1 hour ago, Veprz said:

When you're doing what you love is it even considered work? Lol. I guess it still is when you're working on other peoples stuff. 

Did the bent receiver  exhibit deformation in the same area as Kwesi's bolt?

Haven't looked at it. I have barrels and receivers out right now and everything else is back in the bins. It didn't have many rounds on it, so I would say that it is highly unlikely that it shows more than evidence of contact.

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A sampling of how out of whack and inconsistent these things can be. It initially happens during the riveting processes, as far as I can tell. Other factors can contribute to it on the user level. 

20180811_120355.jpg

20180811_120420.jpg

20180811_120506.jpg

20180811_120611.jpg

20180811_120740.jpg

20180811_120816.jpg

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9 hours ago, evlblkwpnz said:

A sampling of how out of whack and inconsistent these things can be. It initially happens during the riveting processes, as far as I can tell. Other factors can contribute to it on the user level. 

20180811_120355.jpg

20180811_120420.jpg

20180811_120506.jpg

20180811_120611.jpg

20180811_120740.jpg

20180811_120816.jpg

Wow! That receiver in the 5th pic looks warped to hell!

That gas block pin channel in your next post..SMH! I know theres not nearly as much material as on a AK barrel but dang!

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My own SBS made these receivers look great. It was really bent.

 

It is fairly rare that they breach the bore, but it does happen. Gotta make it work. With this one I could see the pin in the bore before I ever pressed the barrel out. I did goggle at it, yes, with big eyes. I don't know why as there is nothing to gain from doing it, but I have this fixation with looking in the barrels before I remove them. You never know what you might find in there. There may be a WHOA! moment lurking in there like this one.

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On 8/11/2018 at 6:49 AM, evlblkwpnz said:

I'll post a pic of what I am looking for later tonight. You need a metal straight edge that is confirmed perfectly flat down one edge. You do this by eye or with light on something nice a flat like a granite countertop if you simply do not have a good eye for things. What I am trying to find has little to do with the stovepipes and much to do with the bolt head damage.

 

Who's on first? ;)

Thank you sir!

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I purchased a straight edge square with a level attached.  It’s hard to balance the gun while holding the straight edge level and take a pic.  My guess is these pics aren’t exactly what you need so I’ll have to borrow more hands.  I will get what you have been so patiently waiting on!

2elbn9g.jpg

2rejnmo.jpg

7uqe.jpg

Edited by kwesi

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There is definitely a bit of warpage in that receiver. How bad that really is? Ill let the experts decide.

In a perfect world you would see no gaps at all running all the way down the receiver forward to aft. 

Edited by Veprz

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Ever seen the video of the tank running over the AK and the gun still works? This thread brings that into my mind. Maybe if you try that it'll straighten out the receiver and the gun will run right. Of course I jest. 

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3 hours ago, Veprz said:

There is definitely a bit of warpage in that receiver. How bad that really is? Ill let the experts decide.

I believe these two photo's are better. I did not focus on the level.  It is resting on the side and did my best to hold it level with one hand and take the pic with the other.  Please let me know if I need to get another set of hands to deliver the right pic.  Hoping I'm at least getting closer.

w1s0gj.jpg

2mdgm1k.jpg

Edited by kwesi

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