AA-12 recoil type system in a saiga platform?

[saltydecimator 478]

i just wanna get on that low recoil band wagon!  obiously opemn bolt outta the equation, but could a semi auto gun be engineered todo the same type of thing?  3k (or even higher, thought was $4500) for a semi version of the AA is silly.    kinda like how that JTS-12 ak has longer receiver, couldnt the long travel be duplicated?

[gunfun 3,928]

Sergei Orlov once posted a few pics here of A vepr factory team prototype which had an AR buffer tube on it, and a little widget which connects the carrier to the buffer weight, newton's cradle style. IMO it was brilliant.

There's your ticket. Not actually all that hard to make either.

[saltydecimator 478]

https://dpmsystems.com/molot-12-gauge-shotgun

 

that's an aftermarket design, is that what you’re saying?

 

I googled “molot kinetic recoils reduction system” and that’s what it came up with. You posted something along those lines back in 2012

[saltydecimator 478]

https://4range.com/product/dissident-arms-vepr-12-competition-guide-rod-16188.html

 

theres one from dissident but i dont think its for recoil control

im not a pussy, i just feel why have recoil if you dont need to right???

[saltydecimator 478]

also,  wonder what a SOT guy could do with one of these and an open bolt?  i would volunteer my tristar if evl  wanted to play, hahah

[evlblkwpnz 3,396]

I'm not doing anymore Form 2 stuff for a while. I have some things/ideas that I want to move forward and I have to stay focused. I hope to afford my self the ability to play and explore after that

While we are on this subject of design, I have noticed that no one, period, designs a mag fed shotgun with the intention to modify it much later. All of them are a PITA in some way or another. As crude as the Saiga 12 is, it has the most potential. Others are designed as such that they are extremely limited in what one can do with them. AA12 is a prime example. It is what it is and will always be just that.

[saltydecimator 478]

Focus is a hard part for me too. Haha. Wife got me an add book that I still haven’t read. 

 

I feel that sko-12 design is almost good. Except it has the welded barrel lug. Maybe that’s not such a big deal I dunno. And the magwell is too small to run saiga or vepr style mags.

sure is lotta options coming out 

- cr12 from Wilkinson tactical

- ria Turkish improted  vr80

-genesis 12

-tavor 

Life is just so full of trade offs. fallen world etc  

 

 

[evlblkwpnz 3,396]

I saw the VR80. I think they goofed us up by having action parts out on the barrel, hard to tell from pics. If so, no radically short shotguns made on that without major redesign. No one seems to get it...

[gunfun 3,928]

On 2/1/2019 at 6:52 AM, saltydecimator said:

https://dpmsystems.com/molot-12-gauge-shotgun

 

that's an aftermarket design, is that what you’re saying?

 

I googled “molot kinetic recoils reduction system” and that’s what it came up with. You posted something along those lines back in 2012

 

No. this was an AR buffer tube with a delrin piece which the carrier hit, which transmitted the force to the AR buffer. IIRC. They had to clearance the rear trunion and fab something to keep the delrin chunk in place if I am remembering correctly.

 

[gunfun 3,928]

 

I think you could lathe turn a plug shaped like two AR buffers back to back, so that it would stay captive, but still reach the back of the carrier. Might have to be thinner on the front to clear the trunion.

[gunfun 3,928]

The one Sergeii had was clearly  a one off shop experiment for the factory team. Their new guns don't have it, so either it didn't work well or it didn't work well enough for them to bother.

Also, around that time Molot was making AR15s for their factory team, as was IZH. I think they realized that it was poor branding,  so they went back. Imagine if the chevy nascar team put a wrap on their cars to make them look like mustangs, or worse actually used a chevy manufactured mustang. Marketing over function. -- we sell AKs, make sure they look like AKs. 

 

[MikeD 539]

The Semi AA-12 won’t have the same recoil control as the open bolt version.  To answer the question if a close bolt semi could have the recoil control the open bolt fullauto does the answer is Yes and even better.  

When I got my semi AA-12 I saw first hand how horrible the recoil is on it in closed bolt.  I came up with a super simple way to cancel the recoil regardless of it is closed bolt or not.  It would even work for an artilary cannon, lol.  I have spoke to the guys that took over the AA-12 about it but no bites.  It’s a shame because it would be super simple to incorporate into the AA-12.   I have told a couple other manufactures about it but no bites.

 

It is super simple and I’d love to see it in use on many platforms some day.  I hope I can get someone on board because I don’t want to take on a new platform myself.  

[evlblkwpnz 3,396]

If I can ever get there I will definitely hear you out. 

[saltydecimator 478]

Gonna try my hand at building new trunnion with  ar tube threads and have long spring going the length of it. Or that’s my plan at least at the moment 

[saltydecimator 478]

On 2/5/2019 at 1:34 PM, gunfun said:

 

I think you could lathe turn a plug shaped like two AR buffers back to back, so that it would stay captive, but still reach the back of the carrier. Might have to be thinner on the front to clear the trunion.

Well if you talking Newton’s cradle wouldn’t ya want them to both be free so the force to start from rest to moving would eat up some recoil energy? And more of those the merrier, to eat up more energy? 

[saltydecimator 478]

On 2/7/2019 at 2:55 AM, MikeD said:

The Semi AA-12 won’t have the same recoil control as the open bolt version.  To answer the question if a close bolt semi could have the recoil control the open bolt fullauto does the answer is Yes and even better.  

When I got my semi AA-12 I saw first hand how horrible the recoil is on it in closed bolt.  I came up with a super simple way to cancel the recoil regardless of it is closed bolt or not.  It would even work for an artilary cannon, lol.  I have spoke to the guys that took over the AA-12 about it but no bites.  It’s a shame because it would be super simple to incorporate into the AA-12.   I have told a couple other manufactures about it but no bites.

 

It is super simple and I’d love to see it in use on many platforms some day.  I hope I can get someone on board because I don’t want to take on a new platform myself.  

Oh ya I’m totally skipping the semi version. A fraction of the fun for 5x the price?! No thanks!!  

[saltydecimator 478]

Now just gotta work on springs and buffers. And choosing a vepr or saiga to put it on

[gunfun 3,928]

Re: newton's cradle. question. Since you are making it the idea is that it is spring backed and takes energy from the carrier  before it hits the trunion, and allows that do dissipate down the buffer tube, while being decelerated by the spring.

An ideal state would be that it takes just enough energy, that the carrier stalls as it contacts the trunion, and the buffer weight stalls just before it would bottom out in the buffer tube. 

Erring on the side of reliability, would be just the lightest of a bump of the carrier into the trunion.

A negative consequence that would probably need tuning would be the return bump as the buffer comes forward. If you could cushion that with a spring, that would probably be better than a hard clunk. I think it is not possible to get it to put energy back into the carrier. That's going to be on the way home while the buffer is still coming back.

Perhaps a poppet of rubber on the back end of the buffer tube could smooth out that cycle. basically a check valve. Buffer pushes air out the back with no resistance, but on the forward stroke, the buffer fights a partial suction against the check, so it comes home softly and doesn't add another bump to the cycle.

I follow your progress with interest.

[gunfun 3,928]

On 2/21/2019 at 7:04 PM, saltydecimator said:

Well if you talking Newton’s cradle wouldn’t ya want them to both be free so the force to start from rest to moving would eat up some recoil energy? And more of those the merrier, to eat up more energy? 

 

that would be ideal state, but you need a spring to return it to starting point, and hold it there until the carrier meets it. So what you want is the softest spring which does that and allows the buffer to stall before it bottoms out.  That's the best possible compromise. Fortunately, there are a plethora of options around for AR springs.

[gunfun 3,928]

I think the other reason Molot might have quit development is that all the competition guns migrated to having a higher point on the pig nose so that the stock's dummy buffer tube was in line with the gas tube rather than the barrel, to reduce muzzle flip. 

 

The original design I referenced had the buffer tube in line with the hole under the rear trunion's tang, so as to make use of the empty space to connect with the carrier. 

I would guess that they determined having the stock up high was a bigger gain to control than smoothing out a little recoil with their target loads. 

If you wanted both, you could have the recoil tube wherever it has to be, and build a big stock that has a large pad at the back, good cheek placement, and has the buffer at some random place inside it. That means it wouldn't be modular to whatever AR stock, but it would give you the ability to optimise a lot of recoil management and have a very smooth shotgun.

[saltydecimator 478]

Ya, these spring concepts are so foreign to me, I’m used to just using stuff, not pondering how it works. 

 

Got it almost thin enough to river/ bolt in

[G O B 3,508]

Maybe a gas spring? Set it so the bolt carrier contacts just past the point where a new shell can feed, but dampen the carrier before it contacts the trunnion?

[saltydecimator 478]

I have a m249 saw stock/trunnion with gas dampener (or liquid?) that I may try to incorporate, it does have “a shoulder thing that goes up” as an added bonus hahah

 

Well got the gun running with out any “recoil dampening “ features today. First tried it with no muzzle device, then turkey choke with a some ports. First with cheap herters cables target loads and then some estate handicap target loads

 

i used a plastic rod from my wife’s expensive “rothy” shoes as rear guide rod, and some aluminum that I turned down that used to be shipping caps for CRJ-200 flap flex shaft cables. The aluminum keeps the guide rod centered in buffer tube so hammer doesn’t hit the recoil springs. Did notice how close they interact. The fun things I learn notice finally when working on stuff...

I used 3 recoil springs total  the 2 original factory and then an unlabeled one from my box o’parts   Not sure what spring rate it was.  I just put enough on there so that the bolt would try to overcome the extractor spring when released form 1/2” from battery. very scienthaha

i have some vids to upload to YouTube, but here’s some pics. 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by saltydecimator

[saltydecimator 478]

Edited March 29, 2019 by saltydecimator

[saltydecimator 478]

Trunnion is just screwed on as the gap tween bottom of carrier  and new trunnion was givin me troubles. I mean I was sick of removing metal to make b/c  able to be removed without removing trunnion. Then I said screw it cause who knows what kinda assembly method a recoil reduction is gonna entail so bolt coming out easy at moment isn’t necessary. I think it does come out, I just haven’t pulled on it yet. I’m just so stoked that it ran on first run without any tweakin. I though the carrier was gonna stock in my trunnion, butnit ranlike a champ. I think the recoil feels better with the higher stock axis, but other than that felt normal. 

 

Had 1 failure but that was after I switched to an adjustable gas block for the last 2 mags. 

[saltydecimator 478]

On 2/5/2019 at 1:32 PM, gunfun said:

 

No. this was an AR buffer tube with a delrin piece which the carrier hit, which transmitted the force to the AR buffer. IIRC. They had to clearance the rear trunion and fab something to keep the delrin chunk in place if I am remembering correctly.

 

Do you have pics  and/or a link to how I contact him? He must be before my saiga 12 time as his name not ringin bells. Was he on this forum?

[gunfun 3,928]

Dunno how to contact him. I think he might just be sergei here 

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC26oKOeEkbm0IQSGy389vzQ

 

[gunfun 3,928]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?/profile/37397-sergii/

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC26oKOeEkbm0IQSGy389vzQ

 

[saltydecimator 478]

Well put some sockets in the tube. Didn’t feel any lighter on the recoil. Needs more work. This is the vid from this morning

 

 

On a side note, I don’t like the evil empire that is apple, but dang this formum and the phone interact well!  Also, ivideo on phone is kewl! Turned the slow mo video into a minute instead of 4  and the interface is just real easy to use  

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by saltydecimator

[gunfun 3,928]

neat