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saltydecimator

AA-12 recoil type system in a saiga platform?

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i just wanna get on that low recoil band wagon!  obiously opemn bolt outta the equation, but could a semi auto gun be engineered todo the same type of thing?  3k (or even higher, thought was $4500) for a semi version of the AA is silly.    kinda like how that JTS-12 ak has longer receiver, couldnt the long travel be duplicated?

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Sergei Orlov once posted a few pics here of A vepr factory team prototype which had an AR buffer tube on it, and a little widget which connects the carrier to the buffer weight, newton's cradle style. IMO it was brilliant.

There's your ticket. Not actually all that hard to make either.

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I'm not doing anymore Form 2 stuff for a while. I have some things/ideas that I want to move forward and I have to stay focused. I hope to afford my self the ability to play and explore after that ;)

While we are on this subject of design, I have noticed that no one, period, designs a mag fed shotgun with the intention to modify it much later. All of them are a PITA in some way or another. As crude as the Saiga 12 is, it has the most potential. Others are designed as such that they are extremely limited in what one can do with them. AA12 is a prime example. It is what it is and will always be just that.

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Focus is a hard part for me too. Haha. Wife got me an add book that I still haven’t read. 

 

I feel that sko-12 design is almost good. Except it has the welded barrel lug. Maybe that’s not such a big deal I dunno. And the magwell is too small to run saiga or vepr style mags.

sure is lotta options coming out 

- cr12 from Wilkinson tactical

- ria Turkish improted  vr80

-genesis 12

-tavor 

Life is just so full of trade offs. fallen world etc  

 

 

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I saw the VR80. I think they goofed us up by having action parts out on the barrel, hard to tell from pics. If so, no radically short shotguns made on that without major redesign. No one seems to get it...

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On 2/1/2019 at 6:52 AM, saltydecimator said:

https://dpmsystems.com/molot-12-gauge-shotgun

 

that's an aftermarket design, is that what you’re saying?

 

I googled “molot kinetic recoils reduction system” and that’s what it came up with. You posted something along those lines back in 2012

 

No. this was an AR buffer tube with a delrin piece which the carrier hit, which transmitted the force to the AR buffer. IIRC. They had to clearance the rear trunion and fab something to keep the delrin chunk in place if I am remembering correctly.

 

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I think you could lathe turn a plug shaped like two AR buffers back to back, so that it would stay captive, but still reach the back of the carrier. Might have to be thinner on the front to clear the trunion.

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The one Sergeii had was clearly  a one off shop experiment for the factory team. Their new guns don't have it, so either it didn't work well or it didn't work well enough for them to bother.

Also, around that time Molot was making AR15s for their factory team, as was IZH. I think they realized that it was poor branding,  so they went back. Imagine if the chevy nascar team put a wrap on their cars to make them look like mustangs, or worse actually used a chevy manufactured mustang. Marketing over function. -- we sell AKs, make sure they look like AKs. 

 

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The Semi AA-12 won’t have the same recoil control as the open bolt version.  To answer the question if a close bolt semi could have the recoil control the open bolt fullauto does the answer is Yes and even better.  

When I got my semi AA-12 I saw first hand how horrible the recoil is on it in closed bolt.  I came up with a super simple way to cancel the recoil regardless of it is closed bolt or not.  It would even work for an artilary cannon, lol.  I have spoke to the guys that took over the AA-12 about it but no bites.  It’s a shame because it would be super simple to incorporate into the AA-12.   I have told a couple other manufactures about it but no bites.

 

It is super simple and I’d love to see it in use on many platforms some day.  I hope I can get someone on board because I don’t want to take on a new platform myself.  

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Gonna try my hand at building new trunnion with  ar tube threads and have long spring going the length of it. Or that’s my plan at least at the moment 

2A1403A1-4D9F-4F5D-B4E4-3242D6C83734.jpeg

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On 2/5/2019 at 1:34 PM, gunfun said:

 

I think you could lathe turn a plug shaped like two AR buffers back to back, so that it would stay captive, but still reach the back of the carrier. Might have to be thinner on the front to clear the trunion.

Well if you talking Newton’s cradle wouldn’t ya want them to both be free so the force to start from rest to moving would eat up some recoil energy? And more of those the merrier, to eat up more energy? 

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On 2/7/2019 at 2:55 AM, MikeD said:

The Semi AA-12 won’t have the same recoil control as the open bolt version.  To answer the question if a close bolt semi could have the recoil control the open bolt fullauto does the answer is Yes and even better.  

When I got my semi AA-12 I saw first hand how horrible the recoil is on it in closed bolt.  I came up with a super simple way to cancel the recoil regardless of it is closed bolt or not.  It would even work for an artilary cannon, lol.  I have spoke to the guys that took over the AA-12 about it but no bites.  It’s a shame because it would be super simple to incorporate into the AA-12.   I have told a couple other manufactures about it but no bites.

 

It is super simple and I’d love to see it in use on many platforms some day.  I hope I can get someone on board because I don’t want to take on a new platform myself.  

Oh ya I’m totally skipping the semi version. A fraction of the fun for 5x the price?! No thanks!!  

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Re: newton's cradle. question. Since you are making it the idea is that it is spring backed and takes energy from the carrier  before it hits the trunion, and allows that do dissipate down the buffer tube, while being decelerated by the spring.

An ideal state would be that it takes just enough energy, that the carrier stalls as it contacts the trunion, and the buffer weight stalls just before it would bottom out in the buffer tube. 

Erring on the side of reliability, would be just the lightest of a bump of the carrier into the trunion.

A negative consequence that would probably need tuning would be the return bump as the buffer comes forward. If you could cushion that with a spring, that would probably be better than a hard clunk. I think it is not possible to get it to put energy back into the carrier. That's going to be on the way home while the buffer is still coming back.

Perhaps a poppet of rubber on the back end of the buffer tube could smooth out that cycle. basically a check valve. Buffer pushes air out the back with no resistance, but on the forward stroke, the buffer fights a partial suction against the check, so it comes home softly and doesn't add another bump to the cycle.

I follow your progress with interest.

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On 2/21/2019 at 7:04 PM, saltydecimator said:

Well if you talking Newton’s cradle wouldn’t ya want them to both be free so the force to start from rest to moving would eat up some recoil energy? And more of those the merrier, to eat up more energy? 

 

that would be ideal state, but you need a spring to return it to starting point, and hold it there until the carrier meets it. So what you want is the softest spring which does that and allows the buffer to stall before it bottoms out.  That's the best possible compromise. Fortunately, there are a plethora of options around for AR springs.

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I think the other reason Molot might have quit development is that all the competition guns migrated to having a higher point on the pig nose so that the stock's dummy buffer tube was in line with the gas tube rather than the barrel, to reduce muzzle flip. 

 

The original design I referenced had the buffer tube in line with the hole under the rear trunion's tang, so as to make use of the empty space to connect with the carrier. 

I would guess that they determined having the stock up high was a bigger gain to control than smoothing out a little recoil with their target loads. 

If you wanted both, you could have the recoil tube wherever it has to be, and build a big stock that has a large pad at the back, good cheek placement, and has the buffer at some random place inside it. That means it wouldn't be modular to whatever AR stock, but it would give you the ability to optimise a lot of recoil management and have a very smooth shotgun.

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Ya, these spring concepts are so foreign to me, I’m used to just using stuff, not pondering how it works. 

 

Got it almost thin enough to river/ bolt in

8955725E-14AC-46CB-9E06-D75C83E23483.jpeg

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Maybe a gas spring? Set it so the bolt carrier contacts just past the point where a new shell can feed, but dampen the carrier before it contacts the trunnion?

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