Hunting accuracy?

[beavis 0]

I realize the Saigas were never designed or intended to be 400yd prairie dog or ground squirrel guns but would the 16" 223 be accurate enough as a predator calling rifle (coyote at 200yds) or a 150-200yd groundhog gun. The best coyote calling season here (Iowa) is the dead of winter and an AK platform should should be rugged and reliable enough for the cold and snow but I do have concerns about accuracy. A lot of guys are going to ARs but the price tag of Saigas is a lot more palatable.

 

Any info or insight would be much appreciated.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I would be a little skeptical on the energy transfer of the .223 at 200M on a coyote.

Them buggers are TOUGH!

 

I would say for 100M or less, yeah, the .223 will easily do the job. But you are talking a very light weight bullet a long way out. I have shot blackbirds at that range with my AR... even out to 250M... it kills them dead! A yote, is a LOT more durable. You will probably find that it will NOT kill them immediately. What I would call a clean sporting kill.

 

Also I highly doubt you would get the accuracy potential for a head shot at 200M... CLOSE... but not a shot I would take. For a body shot, the .223 Saiga will mortally wound a coyote at that range, but I doubt it will drop them in their tracks... I may be wrong...

 

For that range of shooting, you will be better off with something with a bit more ass behind it... like the .270, .308, or the '06! You want to get a larger bullet out to that distance to get more energy into the hit... the .223 is just not heavy enough to do the job in MY OPINION...

 

[Unknown Poster 5]

I'm not too sure of the accuracy and range yet of the saiga in .223rem. The saiga in 308win seems to be holding its own at 200yds, 400yds and 500yds too there has been reports of its awesome accuracy so far. It makes me wonder what the saiga in .223rem can do too. A scoped saiga in .223rem just may work for you. I have heard of the saiga's in .223rem hanging in there with the ar's in accuracy too the only difference is the price tag.

 

I just built a cheap little varmit gun from a '95 chilean 7mm (29")barreled receiver($89). Something just to give'm yotes a kiss behind the ear gun.

Edited March 12, 2006 by Unknown Poster

[beavis 0]

The argument of 223 for coyotes will go on forever in and of itself I am sure. I have no question a 22-250 or 243 and above will anchor longer range coyotes better than a 223. Truth is there are a lot of guys taking coyotes year round with 223s whether it is the best round for the job or not. When I was in the military we were told the effective range of the M-16 was 460yds. The assumption there was that that was on a human target that was also shooting at you. If a 223 will stop a human it is a good guess it will work on unarmed coyotes. Again an argument can be made about dropping it in it's tracks vs tracking it for awhile. Either way a 200yd boiler room shot on a coyote with a 223 should put it down in a reasonable time. My question is will the Saiga 223 give me enough accuracy to make it a clean boiler room shot?

[IndyArms 10,186]

Thats my concern... not whether it can KILL a yote at 200... but whether it will do it QUICK and clean...

 

I prefer that any critter I shoot whether for food or sport is quickly put down... I dont want to shoot something to have it crawl away and suffer for two weeks before it slowly dies from internal wounds...

 

The .223 is more than enough gun to do a coyote quick, inside 100...probbaly even to 150... outside of that... I think you need to be REAL sure of your shot placement... if you want a quick, clean kill...

 

If you like to let em suffer... shoot em all ya want!

 

[rangerruck 0]

i just shot for accuracy , my 223 today. 5 inch splash target at 100 yards,sand bag front no rest for the rear , but my shoulder. out of 200 rounds, i missed 10 times, and i was fireing about 1 round per as fast as i go. so i have not even done the molycoat thing yet, but rest assured i shall, any rifle i have that i see that has this kind of accuracy potential, gets the moly treatment. i also found out here that the twist is 1/9. so i should be able to use maybe 64 up to 68 grain bullets with this kind of accuracy. a 68 grn bullet will make a coyote backflip at 200 yds. At least i've seen it. so what you really need to do is to judge your rifles' general accuracy at 100 yds, and dont make it all too easy. like i did , fire fast , use different size mags, dont support the rear of the rifle. stuff like that.

[beavis 0]

Rangerruck, was that scoped or with iron sights? Also I am not familiar enough with molycoating to what effect that should have. Can you explain that a little (readers digest version and with small words please) and do you know of anyone that has done that with a Saiga and what the before and after results were?

[rangerruck 0]

Rangerruck, was that scoped or with iron sights? Also I am not familiar enough with molycoating to what effect that should have. Can you explain that a little (readers digest version and with small words please) and do you know of anyone that has done that with a Saiga and what the before and after results were?

open sites, baby! i do not plan on scoping any of my saigas, keeping the weight, and balance and ergonomics as is.

[rangerruck 0]

Rangerruck, was that scoped or with iron sights? Also I am not familiar enough with molycoating to what effect that should have. Can you explain that a little (readers digest version and with small words please) and do you know of anyone that has done that with a Saiga and what the before and after results were?

moly coating is a chore, and time consuming , but if you think youhave a rifle that is pretty accurate, then it is well worth it. superclean your bbl, action, receiver. needs to come out spotless.

apply the moly coat, nice and sloppy wet to all the moving parts areas, including trigger group, inside the receiver rials, piston, bolt assy. etc. i would not apply to the bolt face /chamber face /lockup area. you need that good friction /lockup of these parts, and i do not know nor want to chance on a super slick boltface suddenly changeing the time / gas escape rate, and it suddenly changes your accuracy with every shot.

lay the rifle on its side in a warm place. INSIDE A GARAGE, in your water heater room, etc. you may want to use some cotton to plug the muzzle end, chamber end, to keep in the material. turn 1/4 turn every day for a week. then wipe out excess, go to the range , light 'er up. shoot a couple hundred rounds, then repeat the entire process.lemme show you some cz pics and marlin mod 60 pics i did at 100 yards, both on the same day, they have both been treated.

Edited March 13, 2006 by rangerruck

[rangerruck 0]

again, these were at 100 yds, both are totally stock, except for moly treated. the 10 -15 was the typical wind speed , left to right.

[Onepoint 0]

I don't call coyotes, but just out and about the last couple years I have gotten a couple with my Saiga 223 out to 250, maybe a little farther, with a scope rested on a post or ATV . Shot placement and Blackhills 60gr Vmax. At that distance I hit heart or lung as it stood sideways looking at me, and it dropped pretty quick, one yip and it was over. Like any other type of hunting a gut shot, or hip shot or what ever and the 223 is no different than a 243 or whatever.

 

 

The Saigas are not going to be a long range varminter no matter how you dress them up, you are not going to be accurate enough for 300+ yard head shots, but it is pretty good for what the design is.

 

Here is some I did a couple years ago unconverted but after I polished the factory trigger group. Just to give to give an idea of off the shelf cheap ammo accuracy.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Onepoint

[beavis 0]

Thanks onepoint, that is exactly the first person real life data I am in search of. As I stated this would not be a long range prairie dog gun but a predator calling and maybe a 200yd ground hog and 150 yd crow gun. I'm looking for a rugged truck gun that will stand up to bitter cold and snow as well some hard use plinking and while I am a good cleaner there are always times of neglect during the season. I would like a semi-auto but I've heard mini 14s pattern more like a shotgun and while I like AR 15s I don't like their price tag that much. Would you say the Saiga 223 might be a good match for my needs?

[Unknown Poster 5]

I use the TS-70 moly or an anti-seize moly. I moly up the inside of the receiver rails, bolt carrier, bolt and lugs, trigger sear, recoil spring, hammer face and put just a little on the gas piston/gas tube. The after the gun is assembled i will run the bolt carrier about 30 to 50 times to work the moly in. It will seem tight at first but as you go it will free up. Then your ready to go shooting the saiga will feel like a different gun it will cycle faster and smoother too. And the trigger is even awesome too.

 

Moly elimates all wear, reduces friction and prevents galling. It stays wet and were you put it and doesn't attract dirt. It works into the small pores of the metal and wears against itself there is no metal to metal contact thus no wear. The saiga without moly feels like an AK and with moly it feels like a more expensive gun but its awesome just try it once and you will do all your rifles, bolt action & semi auto and pistols and revolvers too. It will smooth out the trigger and lessen the trigger pull by up to 50% right away and more as it works in. It can make the worst trigger feel good. You will not believe its the same gun.

 

I had a buddy who in the 70's worked at dow corning were they tested moly in a lab. He told me to burnish into the pores of the metal with a soft rag or let the metal parts work it into the pores of the metal. This is the only way the moly will get into the pores of the metal and stay there elimating wear & friction. I will leave the excess inside the receiver too again it stays wet and were you put it. I promise by using moly you will never see and wear on the rails inside the receiver. On my very first chinese sks i have owned since the late 80's still has no sign of any wear yet to this day. Even if you wipe the moly out of the gun its still there protecting our gun against wear & friction because its in the small pores of the metal this is good to know for really cold weather. (well below zero)

 

I get my moly from McMaster Carr Industrial Supply on the internet. I order the moly anti-seize premium blend and they send me TS-70 moly from www.ts-moly.com There are also a few other moly anti-seizes out there too so anyone with moly in it will do. They may vary in texture/thickness so you have to watch how much moly you use if its thick use less and work it in. If you use too much the bolt carrier will be too stiff the gun won't function you have to use the right amount too.

 

I have been using and testing moly since the 70's but i haven't tried moly in the rifle bores yet. I have had great results in my revolvers and pistols too. In my New Auto-Ordnance Army WW2 1911a1 45acp i installed a 18# recoil spring with a full length guide rod kit with moly in the spring guide, spring, frame & slide rails, trigger sear and hammer face. I now have a 1911a1 that cycles faster and smoother with very little recoil, its so cycles so fast i can almost put a second shot were the first one went before the stuffed burlap bag starts to fall it cycles that quick with moly.

Edited March 13, 2006 by Unknown Poster

[Onepoint 0]

I have not done any moly coating of the barrel, because there is some who claim once you go moly treat a barrel, you have to keep using it. I haven't taken time to look into it to see what the fuss is. But as to using moly grease or moly antisieze on working parts, you betcha. I use it on just about all the builds I do, both ARs and AKs. Especially on trigger parts and axis pins. My only complaint is the stuff gets everywhere, and migrates.

 

Beavis, I think the Saiga makes a decent predator hunting rifle, if you keep in mind the range and limitations of accuracy to the rifle. I have ARs set up for prairie dogging, and its not going to compete with those, but it shoots roughly equal to my 16" Hbar carbine AR, and cost exactly half. If you are not going to convert the trigger, polish it up and lube it and put some round through it so everything wears in, mine tightened up groups after about 250-300 rounds.

[rangerruck 0]

I have not done any moly coating of the barrel, because there is some who claim once you go moly treat a barrel, you have to keep using it. I haven't taken time to look into it to see what the fuss is. But as to using moly grease or moly antisieze on working parts, you betcha. I use it on just about all the builds I do, both ARs and AKs. Especially on trigger parts and axis pins. My only complaint is the stuff gets everywhere, and migrates.

 

Beavis, I think the Saiga makes a decent predator hunting rifle, if you keep in mind the range and limitations of accuracy to the rifle. I have ARs set up for prairie dogging, and its not going to compete with those, but it shoots roughly equal to my 16" Hbar carbine AR, and cost exactly half. If you are not going to convert the trigger, polish it up and lube it and put some round through it so everything wears in, mine tightened up groups after about 250-300 rounds.

thats a negative on the moly. it works at the molecular/sub level. ther is no "stuff" to rub off or loose.

[Unknown Poster 5]

I have found out it stays were you put it. I wipe off the excess on the outside of the gun from me handling it with moly on my fingers. But i have learned to be a little less sloppy with it too. I think the barrel bore treatment will work too if you just apply it often, i don't think you need to shoot moly bullets all the time. Once its into th esmall pores of the metal its there for a longtime and just needs to be refreshed every so often. I have to try doing a regular unchromed bore because using it on chrome would be a waste of moly.