TacticalOpsAR 0 Posted March 17, 2006 Report Share Posted March 17, 2006 (edited) ok this has probably been covered a million times, but a couple questions after searching the forums current Saiga 12's, even the tromix type conversions are non DD correct? and only need 922 compliance for the folder, etc. This is primarily due to the lack of 10+ magazines, nlfd if the S12 is declared a DD later on. will owners be allowed to submit paperwork and $200 stamp and retain the weapon. and would it be transferrable after paperwork is approved? Edited March 20, 2006 by TacticalOpsAR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 If the bearpockers will let the NLFD issue die, there will be no DD issues. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telly458 0 Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 When the USAS-12 was reclassified,they waived the $200 fee,as long as it was registered within 30 days of reciept of thier letter.They tracked all sales through dealer's records,then sent letters out,specifying 'register,sell to class 9 dealer,or surrender the weapon to the local police/ATF office. Don't know how they'd go about it now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 18, 2006 Report Share Posted March 18, 2006 as long as some greedy asshole doesnt go make drum mags or huge non-useful stick mags and sell even one to the public market, this gun is probably here to stay.... sooner or later, someone is going to do it though. your DD tax stamp only comes to you if you blow the head cop in your jurisdiction, by the way. you have to still have someone sign off on it, and in some states, its nearly impossible, and in a few, illegal. DD to some will mean surrendering your weapon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEFOZ 1 Posted March 19, 2006 Report Share Posted March 19, 2006 as long as some greedy asshole doesnt go make drum mags or huge non-useful stick mags and sell even one to the public market, this gun is probably here to stay.... sooner or later, someone is going to do it though. your DD tax stamp only comes to you if you blow the head cop in your jurisdiction, by the way. you have to still have someone sign off on it, and in some states, its nearly impossible, and in a few, illegal. DD to some will mean surrendering your weapon. I think the distructive device issue has more to do with public perception Its more about keeping these guns out of crack houses than tech issues so if you want to keep the saiga 12 a title one gun dont sell it to a pawn shop after its been converted and for sure don't convert guns ahead of time and stock them. because criminals usuly have money not time. You may think I am wrong You may think I am right but gunbroker and the other sites are gonig to be the downfall not drum or hopper or 15 round stick feed 12 gages So I figure I will just go ahead and register mine now as a DD to save time. PS I get my sign offs everytime no problem thank you for your time Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 post some pics of what you have NEFOZ. make everybody jealous. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEFOZ 1 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 post some pics of what you have NEFOZ. make everybody jealous. All I have right now is a 22 supresser and a toddler (the toddler forced the sail of my vector and striker) all my other toys are title 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kogashuko 17 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 (edited) If it were a DD none of the other NFA rules count right? Looking at the DD law it says except shotgun. How did they jack up the striker 12 then? Edited March 20, 2006 by Koga Shuko Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 If it were a DD none of the other NFA rules count right? Looking at the DD law it says except shotgun. How did they jack up the striker 12 then? As I understand the way things are set up .... All firearms over .5 inch are DD's by definition. This includes the 10 and 12 and 16 and 20 gauges (28ga?) and NOT the .410 Then, sporting shotguns are given an exemption from the DD classification. Then, for striker and USAS12 the exemption is removed as they have no "suitable sporting purpose". What would be most excellent would be for them to realize the growing sport of "action shooting" is as sport. There's a quote somewhere that I'll loosely paraphrase by some lawmaker/gunhater that I can't remember. "we can't recognize action shooting as a sport as then we couldn't ban anything". Exposed the true intent, not that it was ever in doubt. There's been a movement underway for the sporting purpose to be tried and tested and hopefully removed, but I don't see it happening too soon, if ever at all. -K If it were a DD none of the other NFA rules count right? Interesting question. If true, you could SBS the USAS12, the striker 12 and all. No need for 922r compliance either. Probably do anything short of going full auto ... But I don't know the answer to this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEFOZ 1 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 If it were a DD none of the other NFA rules count right? Looking at the DD law it says except shotgun. How did they jack up the striker 12 then? As I understand the way things are set up .... All firearms over .5 inch are DD's by definition. This includes the 10 and 12 and 16 and 20 gauges (28ga?) and NOT the .410 Then, sporting shotguns are given an exemption from the DD classification. Then, for striker and USAS12 the exemption is removed as they have no "suitable sporting purpose". What would be most excellent would be for them to realize the growing sport of "action shooting" is as sport. There's a quote somewhere that I'll loosely paraphrase by some lawmaker/gunhater that I can't remember. "we can't recognize action shooting as a sport as then we couldn't ban anything". Exposed the true intent, not that it was ever in doubt. There's been a movement underway for the sporting purpose to be tried and tested and hopefully removed, but I don't see it happening too soon, if ever at all. -K If it were a DD none of the other NFA rules count right? Interesting question. If true, you could SBS the USAS12, the striker 12 and all. No need for 922r compliance either. Probably do anything short of going full auto ... But I don't know the answer to this. [/quote That is true my striker was a 10 inch barrel and a sbs until the ruling came down then it was reclasified as a DD as far as the law goes a SBS and a DD are quite simular Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rochte 0 Posted March 20, 2006 Report Share Posted March 20, 2006 "What would be most excellent would be for them to realize the growing sport of 'action shooting' is as sport." What would be even better would be for the Supreme Court to finally clarify that the Second Amendment has NOTHING to do with "sporting purposes"! That would eliminate most of GCA68 and just about everything else that followed it.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Does anyone care to cite any official government source that Saigas will be declared DDs if large capacity feeding devices are made available? Or is this all idle speculation and hearsay. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 One stroke of the pen by a single individual and it's a done deal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEFOZ 1 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 who? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Does anyone care to cite any official government source that Saigas will be declared DDs if large capacity feeding devices are made available? Or is this all idle speculation and hearsay. I spoke with Debbie of RAA. Russian American Armory was warned not to import the currently existing 8 round Saiga 12 magazines for civilian sales. She explained to me about the meeting she and her husband had with the ATF. The ATF clearified their position on this matter. RAA was told that if they import the 8 round magazines for civilian sales the ATF would officially declare the Saiga shotguns as DDs. Call the importeer (RAA) and ask them if you doubt this. Hopefully, the 10 round stick mags that may soon emerge wont trigger the ATF to follow up on their threat. Its not impossible for this to happen. The ATF got a wild hair up their rear back in the 1990's over Olympic Arms creating an AK pistol in the 7.62x39 caliber. As soon as they saw one of Olympic Arms AK pistols, the ATF made a big deal about steel core ammunition in that caliber. All steel core 7.62x39 ammunition was banned from importation. All Chinese ammo ended up banned from importation. I hope everyone about to manufacture and sell 10 round Saiga 12 mags has contacted the ATF for approval. I am all for having good Saiga 12 mags. I just hope it doesnt cause a DD classification. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 I'd like to meet him. If you ask me it is just a matter of time before they are reclassifed anyways, reguardless. A lot of people want to down the drums but are all for the 10rd sticks "like the usas 12 has". No doubt a drum could very well speed it up but so will the 10rd just the same. Think about it, someone with multiply 10rd, 8rd, or 5rd mags for that matter, could do more damage in a much shorter time that any streetsweeper or srticker12 could ever do in a crime. As far as sporting purposes I don't think they are many states that let you hunt with 10rds or 8rds for that matter. The 5rd are even to big for some peolpe. I think everyone needs to except the more than likly inevitble. They will be regulated in someway in the future. Reguardless!!!!!!!!! Does anyone care to cite any official government source that Saigas will be declared DDs if large capacity feeding devices are made available? Or is this all idle speculation and hearsay. I spoke with Debbie of RAA. Russian American Armory was warned not to import the currently existing 8 round Saiga 12 magazines for civilian sales. She explained to me about the meeting she and her husband had with the ATF. The ATF clearified their position on this matter. RAA was told that if they import the 8 round magazines for civilian sales the ATF would officially declare the Saiga shotguns as DDs. Call the importeer (RAA) and ask them if you doubt this. Hopefully, the 10 round stick mags that may soon emerge wont trigger the ATF to follow up on their threat. Its not impossible for this to happen. The ATF got a wild hair up their rear back in the 1990's over Olympic Arms creating an AK pistol in the 7.62x39 caliber. As soon as they saw one of Olympic Arms AK pistols, the ATF made a big deal about steel core ammunition in that caliber. All steel core 7.62x39 ammunition was banned from importation. All Chinese ammo ended up banned from importation. I hope everyone about to manufacture and sell 10 round Saiga 12 mags has contacted the ATF for approval. I am all for having good Saiga 12 mags. I just hope it doesnt cause a DD classification. Like I was just saying. If they warned RAA not to import the 8rd mags, What do you think they will do when the 10rd domestic come out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Telly458 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh,shit. Please,Lord,don't let them be reclassified! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 who? The Secretary of the Treasury will get the job done. Do you remember the name Lloyd Bentson under Clinton's reign? http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=9263 Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steph 5 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 There are plenty of states that do not have restrictions on magazine size for hunting. Wisconsin, for example, only has a restriction when hunting migratory birds. Sure, someone with a handful of 10rnd sticks is just as deadly as someone with a drum... But remember these decisions are not made on what will actually protect the public. The amount of crimes that are committed with "tactical" weapons is miniscule. Those that are, are generally scumbags taking out outher scumbags in gangs, organized crime, drug deals, etc. (I can see an upside to that!) The decisions to control, ban, restrict, tactical weapons are made as feel good legislation by pols who are only interested in appeasing the majority who know nothing about guns except what they see in the movies. (Everybody knows that a gun with a black plastic stock is much more deadly than the same model with a wood stock). I think that the Saiga will eventually be a DD because the conversions are scary looking! If it turns up in movies looking wicked, or worse, is used in a high-profile crime, that will turn it into a DD faster than a drum mag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Expeditionx - your Olympic Arms story about the 7.62 pistol is incorrect. MARS was importing the AK-47 pistol several years before Olympic even thought about making an AR pistol. That is what got the ATF spooled up over the 7.62 steel core ammo. The decision by ATF just happened to come out right when Oly announced their new gun, but it was originally fostered by the MARS pistol. Tony Rumore Tromix Corp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
clange 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 Does anyone care to cite any official government source that Saigas will be declared DDs if large capacity feeding devices are made available? Or is this all idle speculation and hearsay. I spoke with Debbie of RAA. Russian American Armory was warned not to import the currently existing 8 round Saiga 12 magazines for civilian sales. She explained to me about the meeting she and her husband had with the ATF. The ATF clearified their position on this matter. RAA was told that if they import the 8 round magazines for civilian sales the ATF would officially declare the Saiga shotguns as DDs. Call the importeer (RAA) and ask them if you doubt this. Hopefully, the 10 round stick mags that may soon emerge wont trigger the ATF to follow up on their threat. Its not impossible for this to happen. The ATF got a wild hair up their rear back in the 1990's over Olympic Arms creating an AK pistol in the 7.62x39 caliber. As soon as they saw one of Olympic Arms AK pistols, the ATF made a big deal about steel core ammunition in that caliber. All steel core 7.62x39 ammunition was banned from importation. All Chinese ammo ended up banned from importation. I hope everyone about to manufacture and sell 10 round Saiga 12 mags has contacted the ATF for approval. I am all for having good Saiga 12 mags. I just hope it doesnt cause a DD classification. Thats wonderful. So the ATF warns that if 8 rounders get imported and are easily available, the s-12 will be declared a DD. What of easily avaialable 10 round mags? Logic would pretty much suggest as soon as those hit, its DD time. Maybe thats why we havent seen any hit the market. I can just picture the ATF giving similar 'pep talks' to prospective mag makers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted March 21, 2006 Report Share Posted March 21, 2006 (edited) Expeditionx - your Olympic Arms story about the 7.62 pistol is incorrect. MARS was importing the AK-47 pistol several years before Olympic even thought about making an AR pistol. That is what got the ATF spooled up over the 7.62 steel core ammo. The decision by ATF just happened to come out right when Oly announced their new gun, but it was originally fostered by the MARS pistol. Tony Rumore Tromix Corp I remember reading about the MARS imported pistol. I cant understand why the ATF waited until Olympic Arms came out with one also to finally do anything. Heres a quote from "THE GUN ZONE" another company, Mars Imports of Wichita Falls, Texas, who has made these guns, which fact the author was later able to document in an interview with one of Mars' principals, but Cates was unable to explain why ATF had never moved on the steel core 7.62 X 39mm based on the existence of the Mars Imports "pistol" in that cambering. (One possibility is that at the time Mars was in operation in Texas, there was a Texan in the White House who was slightly more sympathetic to gun owners than his successor from Arkansas.) Those approximately 200 AK 47 type Mars pistols, described by one source as "garage guns," were built on B-West Kalashnikov actions. When the author interviewed B-West of Tucson, Arizona, their spokesperson was not particularly forthcoming about the situation. (And we now know why... see the B-West/Mars sidebar.) The fact remains, however, that ATF never moved on the steel core Chinese ammunition until they saw the OA-93 at the SHOT Show in Dallas in 1994. "We don't believe that it matters one iota whether any guns were actually sold," Cates reiterated after checking with ATF legal counsel. "We believe that there is more than sufficient cause to act as we did based on Olympic Arms' offering for sale." But when asked what if ATF's actions had been based on wholly erroneous information and assumptions, Cates carefully phrased his response: "We might rescind our decision if Olympic Arms managed to take all their OA-93s back," he suggested, giving himself an "out" while not acknowledging any possible ATF error. Much later two different individuals in the employ of Olympic Arms vociferously disputed ATF's initial assumption. "Check the ATF records and/or bound books. Only six prototypes were made by Olympic Arms at the time of the ammo ban announcement by ATF and none had been sold," Edited March 21, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NEFOZ 1 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 whats a bearpocker ? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike1972 1 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 whats a bearpocker ? iwas wonderin' the same thing... just too shy to ask Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 (edited) Guys, you're reading too much into the DD thing. All the Saigas that have come into the US so far have passed the "sporting use" test. They have been classified by the ATF as "sporting" shotguns, and therefore not DD's. Now if RAA decided they wanted to start importing Saigas with the 8-round mag or a pistol grip, the ATF would look at that new configuration and determine if it passes the "sporting use" test. A DD ruling would then only apply to Saigas imported after the ruling. The ATF is giving RAA a hard time because they're worried about their import regulations being bypassed. They don't want RAA importing thousands of Saigas in "sporting" configuration, then modifying them in-house to a configuration that wouldn't have passed the "sporting use" import requirement. If you look at the Striker/Streetsweeper DD ruling, the shotgun failed the "sporting use" test and was prohibited from import. The would-be importer tried to bypass the ATF by bringing the tooling to the US and making them here, which prompted the DD ruling. Edited March 22, 2006 by GTwannabe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 whats a bearpocker ? iwas wonderin' the same thing... just too shy to ask A bearpoker is someone that pokes a bear out of curiosity and gets an unwanted response. Eat alive. They meant we are bringing to much attention to the saiga ourselves. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 wait...let me ask it... the ATF made steel core AP 7.62x39 ammo illegal when there was a pistol being marketed that already was being made (if even only a few to get the tooling going)? uh, ammo law? no AP pistol ammo? make ak pistol, no ak AP ammo? uh, why is this subject being discussed. a pistol was made and offered to the general public, if even still at prototype level, that was a "new" pistol caliber, and the atf ruled that the "new pistol caliber" ammo was no longer to be sold in AP rounds because it is federal law that no AP ammo be sold for pistols? i fail to see any reason the ruling in that case shouldnt have been made. it sucks, but it follows the law. if you take stock import s12, and enclose with it, a high cap mag, you are basically selling an assualt shotgun by definition of the law. how it might be ruled if there were a domestic non-firearm company making hi cap mags, is another story, and I am sure it wont be the same to the atf as simply importing 8 rounders or making drums. remember, a drum is a "rotating magazine" device, in essence, and is already a no no for any shotgun that has them made for them. the usas12 wasnt banned for the 10 rounder, but the drum, from how I read it. anything that this forum can do to prevent the s12 from going DD, if its as simple as disallowing drum talk, we will do. this is a great gun, and should be in every american gun owners' homes and arsenals. a domesitc manufacturer of s12 high caps for SHIT SURE would need to enclose with every magazine, a paperwork explaining the need to convert or US part out your s12 before accepting a hi cap mag, or there will be problems. if the maker is exempt from legal responsibility of the consistancy of foreign parts in this EXACT gun, i think it will be even more difficult for the ATF to justify a DD ruling. I WILL sell my s12 the day it goes dd, and i WILL NOT keep a record of it. ill send it onto a reservation if i have to. they cant have mine.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 Guys, you're reading too much into the DD thing. All the Saigas that have come into the US so far have passed the "sporting use" test. They have been classified by the ATF as "sporting" shotguns, and therefore not DD's. Now if RAA decided they wanted to start importing Saigas with the 8-round mag or a pistol grip, the ATF would look at that new configuration and determine if it passes the "sporting use" test. A DD ruling would then only apply to Saigas imported after the ruling. The ATF is giving RAA a hard time because they're worried about their import regulations being bypassed. They don't want RAA importing thousands of Saigas in "sporting" configuration, then modifying them in-house to a configuration that wouldn't have passed the "sporting use" import requirement. If you look at the Striker/Streetsweeper DD ruling, the shotgun failed the "sporting use" test and was prohibited from import. The would-be importer tried to bypass the ATF by bringing the tooling to the US and making them here, which prompted the DD ruling. GT is right! Can you honestly use a Striker or USAS-12 for deer or dove hunting? NO, of course not!! Hence "No sporting purpose". The Saiga 12 importation license for EAA had a waiver stating that the shotguns were perfectly legal to import MINUS the 8 round mags. I called the BATF headquarters in D.C. some 3 years ago trying to find the legality of 8 round mags for the Saiga. BATF also stated that 8-round mags were perfectly legal to produce, import, sell and own. To be honest, most of the BATF agents I spoke with were completely clueless as what a Saiga shotgun was. RonSwin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted March 22, 2006 Report Share Posted March 22, 2006 wait...let me ask it... the ATF made steel core AP 7.62x39 ammo illegal when there was a pistol being marketed that already was being made (if even only a few to get the tooling going)? uh, ammo law? no AP pistol ammo? make ak pistol, no ak AP ammo? uh, why is this subject being discussed. a pistol was made and offered to the general public, if even still at prototype level, that was a "new" pistol caliber, and the atf ruled that the "new pistol caliber" ammo was no longer to be sold in AP rounds because it is federal law that no AP ammo be sold for pistols? i fail to see any reason the ruling in that case shouldnt have been made. it sucks, but it follows the law. if you take stock import s12, and enclose with it, a high cap mag, you are basically selling an assualt shotgun by definition of the law. how it might be ruled if there were a domestic non-firearm company making hi cap mags, is another story, and I am sure it wont be the same to the atf as simply importing 8 rounders or making drums. remember, a drum is a "rotating magazine" device, in essence, and is already a no no for any shotgun that has them made for them. the usas12 wasnt banned for the 10 rounder, but the drum, from how I read it. anything that this forum can do to prevent the s12 from going DD, if its as simple as disallowing drum talk, we will do. this is a great gun, and should be in every american gun owners' homes and arsenals. a domesitc manufacturer of s12 high caps for SHIT SURE would need to enclose with every magazine, a paperwork explaining the need to convert or US part out your s12 before accepting a hi cap mag, or there will be problems. if the maker is exempt from legal responsibility of the consistancy of foreign parts in this EXACT gun, i think it will be even more difficult for the ATF to justify a DD ruling. I WILL sell my s12 the day it goes dd, and i WILL NOT keep a record of it. ill send it onto a reservation if i have to. they cant have mine.... Let's see what happens when I poke this bear .... Bvamp, no need for the letter. If you stick a domestic hi cap into your Saiga, you've just replaced 3 parts .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted March 23, 2006 Report Share Posted March 23, 2006 If you stick a domestic hi cap into your Saiga, you've just replaced 3 parts .... Yep thats what the Soupbowl letter implies. Saiga12 = 13 contendable foreign parts 13 parts - 3 (magazine parts) = 10 foreign parts 10 foreign parts + Domestic mag = 922 legal Theres no question on it being 922 legal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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