TPABA 0 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stokstad 4 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 (edited) All mags for the S12 are scarce these days. I'm sure the new importer Russian American Arms Corp. Will be getting some 5 rounders in soon. I would expect to pay quite a bit more than the $15 you saw them for before. The 8 rounders will never be imported again, but you can buy them from overseas www.rusmilitary.com sells them. Expect to pay over $100 a piece for them no matter where you get them. There are some that used to frequent this board claiming that they are in the process of making ten rounders but lately I have been dissapointed by the fact that they are giving us no updates so I'm guessing that it may be a dead project. I may be ridiculed for saying it but I fear the worst(being a pessimist by nature). They haven't even popped by and posted a hello or anything in quite some time. Also if the factory was only producing 100 8 round mags a day and they shipped them all here they would be sold out in about 15 seconds So look on gunbroker or ebay and sometimes they pop up on here for sale. Also and I may be wrong but I think it make be illegal to put and 8 rounder in an unmodified S12. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong. http://www.fbmginc.com/magazines.htm http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_magazines.htm Guess they are sold out as well Edited March 25, 2006 by stokstad Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPABA 0 Posted March 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 (edited) Also and I may be wrong but I think it make be illegal to put and 8 rounder in an unmodified S12. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong. Well, I go deer hunting with the 8-rounder and I went to DNR and asked... they said there was no magazine capacity limit in this state for semi-auto shotguns. The cops I was hunting with didn't seem to mind either. I got my 8-rounder for about $80, including shipping from overseas. Edited March 25, 2006 by TPABA Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stokstad 4 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 It may not be illegal in your state to have a magazine capacity of 8 rounds for hunting but the 8 rounder on an imported shotgun like the Saiga makes it a nonsporting rifle I think. That is not how the gun was imported so technically you have changed its configuration from its original imported configuration so by the ATF's definition it may be illegal. Local police have a hard enough time remembering their local laws and cannot be expected to remember all the federal firearm laws. Just because they don't have a problem with it doesn mean that the ATF wont. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacticalResponse 0 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 (edited) I believe that if the two guys that are supposed to be making these mags don't come out with them by May or June, everyone including myself will be ordering the 8 rounders from Rusmilitary, and the 10 round mag projects will be considered history. Like everyone else I've tried to remain postive and hopeful that they would be successful and I will continue to hope for the best for all of us, but things are not looking good at the moment. Edited March 25, 2006 by TacticalResponse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 TPABA If you are stuffing stocks with "local" Russian papers you should be able to find an 8 rdr a lot easier than anyone in the US. If this is so then the compliance issues shouldn't apply to you either. Even though they are easier to find in Russia they are impossible to find in the US without paying a cosiderable markup. The ones that Izhmash is producing are mostly going to the military from what I've heard. You guys getting impatient about the 10 rd mags, keep your pants on. I don't know what's up with Ian but I have talked with Kevin and he has had no problems with the feds to quell one rumor. The mags are on schedule and should l be ready soon enough. The reason he hasn't posted in a while about them is because last time he did a bunch of nervous nannies jumped on him about selling them wholesale to Prvt Pyle and other crap. He has chosen to sit back and wait it out quietly like some of us others. They will be ready when they are ready and not before. Posting "updates" only starts a bunch of chatter. I don't think he has the time for that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike1972 1 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 TPABA If you are stuffing stocks with "local" Russian papers you should be able to find an 8 rdr a lot easier than anyone in the US. If this is so then the compliance issues shouldn't apply to you either. Even though they are easier to find in Russia they are impossible to find in the US without paying a cosiderable markup. The ones that Izhmash is producing are mostly going to the military from what I've heard. You guys getting impatient about the 10 rd mags, keep your pants on. I don't know what's up with Ian but I have talked with Kevin and he has had no problems with the feds to quell one rumor. The mags are on schedule and should l be ready soon enough. The reason he hasn't posted in a while about them is because last time he did a bunch of nervous nannies jumped on him about selling them wholesale to Prvt Pyle and other crap. He has chosen to sit back and wait it out quietly like some of us others. They will be ready when they are ready and not before. Posting "updates" only starts a bunch of chatter. I don't think he has the time for that. Listen to the man.... He knows what he speaketh of Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacticalResponse 0 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 I'll wait until the first day of summer and hope for the best but not any longer than that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 The 5rd mags aren't scarce, we have two large bins fo them. The high caps, well we all know the issues with those right now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fosgate 0 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 I checked the state regs in South Dakota (where I live) for hunting. The reg states any Auto or self loading firearm may not exceed the capacity to carry 6 rounds to include a chambered round. So 5rd mag is fine if one is in the pipe. That is unless waterfowl hunting, 3 is total capacity there. I checked with my buddies in Law enforcement here and they went off the ATF regs. You could carry a 50rd mag doesn't matter. So long as you pay the tax and have the thing registered with the ATF and you MUST carry a copy of that registration whenever it leaves your house with you, you are good to go. the following is from the ATF's Webpage http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm M. FIREARMS - NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT (NFA) (M1) The types of firearms that must be registered in the National Firearm Registration and Transfer Record are defined in the NFA and in 27 CFR Part 179. What are some examples? [back] Some examples of the types of firearms that must be registered are: Machineguns; The frames or receivers of machineguns; Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machineguns; Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machinegun; Any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person; Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer; Short-barreled rifles; Short-barreled shotguns; Destructive devices; and, "Any other weapons." A few examples of destructive devices are: Molotov cocktails; Anti-tank guns (over caliber .50); Bazookas; and, Mortars. A few examples of "any other weapon" are: H& R Handyguns; Ithaca Auto-Burglar guns; Cane guns; and, Gadget-type firearms and "pen" guns which fire fixed ammunition. (M2) How can an individual legally acquire NFA firearms? [back] Basically, there are 2 ways that an individual (who is not prohibited by Federal, state, or local law from receiving or possessing firearms) may legally acquire NFA firearms: (1) By lawful transfer of a registered weapon from its lawful owner residing in the same state as the transferee. Obtain any forms needed from the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch, Washington, DC 20226. (2) By obtaining prior approvals to make NFA firearms. [27 CFR 179.84-179.87 and 179.62-179.67] (M3) What is the tax on making an NFA firearm? [back] The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including "any other weapon." (M4) How is this tax paid? [back] A money order or check made payable to the Bureau of ATF together with the application forms are to be mailed to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch, Washington, DC 20226. I would also suggest reading this as it pertains to Shotguns. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/rules/notice_911.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Oh Jeez.....where do we even begin with this one? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 25, 2006 Report Share Posted March 25, 2006 922r You cannot use a magazine of greater than 5 rounds on a forign shotgun. The Saiga has 13 parts that count per BATFE. To use a forign 8rd, mag you must loose 3 or more forign parts. A DOMESTIC mag would lower the parts count to 10 and be legal to have/use , migratory waterfowl and state restrictions would still apply. However domestic mags are made of UNOBTANIUM. G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Here is the Code Ace United States Code TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE PART I - CRIMES CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. Code as of: 01/06/03 Section 922. Unlawful acts (a) It shall be unlawful - (1) for any person - (abcdefghijklmnopq) edited out for length ACE ® It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to - (1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or (2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Attorney General. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPABA 0 Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 It may not be illegal in your state to have a magazine capacity of 8 rounds for hunting but the 8 rounder on an imported shotgun like the Saiga makes it a nonsporting rifle I think. That is not how the gun was imported so technically you have changed its configuration from its original imported configuration so by the ATF's definition it may be illegal. Local police have a hard enough time remembering their local laws and cannot be expected to remember all the federal firearm laws. Just because they don't have a problem with it doesn mean that the ATF wont.A shotgun is a shotgun as far as I'm concerned. I don't really care who made it or where it comes from. It says sport carbine on the box, and there is no magazine capacity limit in the state. It's cheap, effective, druable, and reliable... the best choice as far as I'm concerned. Besides, I don't see those ATF boys running around in the woods while I'm hunting. I would really prefer having as many original parts as possible in the saiga. I wish the importers wouldn't touch them at all, but they do. I like mine just the way it came. It is a bit nose heavy and a wooden stock couldn't hurt. I wish they came wooden just like on the Izhmash website or at least that the importers sold that stuff... and it should be cheap... just like russian labor. TPABA If you are stuffing stocks with "local" Russian papers you should be able to find an 8 rdr a lot easier than anyone in the US. If this is so then the compliance issues shouldn't apply to you either. Even though they are easier to find in Russia they are impossible to find in the US without paying a cosiderable markup. The ones that Izhmash is producing are mostly going to the military from what I've heard. There are russian newspapers in most major cities in the US. We have like 3 of them here... there are like 8 or 9 in Chicago. I'm in the same state the hunter went on that rampage in.... no... not Cheney... the Hmong individual. A friend of mine went to St. Petersburg and couldn't find any 8-rounders... but he did find the gun and the 5-rounder that came with it. No 8-rounders!!! I don't have any contacts in Izhevsk either. I checked Israel also... they mostly have rifles... no mags for saiga-12 either. The 5rd mags aren't scarce, we have two large bins fo them. The high caps, well we all know the issues with those right now. How much for the 5 round mags? I need like one or two. GOP - The waterfowl laws limit the capacity to 3 rounds. I personally went deer hunting with the 8-round mag last season... and yes, I enjoyed it. I had a 5-rounder near by, easy to exchange mags quickly in the field. The saiga is a shotgun, there... period. Now if the federal boys want to march over here... they're welcome to. I don't think they'll be out in the woods during deer hunting, though. I used newspapers just in case I need dry paper to start a fire. Plus, they were free, and just lying around. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPABA 0 Posted March 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 I'm not modifying a gun just by changing the magazine. It came with one, the 8-round in the only other one I could find. Plus, a gun made for sport hunting of small and medium sized game is differen't from a modified saiga. Does anybody know how many US (or foreign; in the eyes of the shotgun) parts the saigas, which came from EAA with the 22in. barrel, have? I hope it's not a lot and most or all of the original parts remain. Plus, the gun is registered and the 8-rounder made it through customs... use em if you got em. Now, I would like to get some 2 rounders for waterfowl hunting. The authorities don't care where your shotgun was made either... no magazine capacity limit on semi auto shotties means no limit... go all out. Now, if only I could get my hands on a drum, and I'm not talking about a pair of bongos. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 TPABA, I hope you'll be careful here. What we're trying to point out is your sporterized Saiga + 8 round mag changes it to a non sporting configuration ... in the eyes of the law. It doesn't matter that you think of it as a sporting firearm (we all think of ours as sporting). It might be that it's unlikely that it would be enforced. Especially while you are hunting. But whatever the slim chances are, you make it even more likely by posting out here. To the rest of us ... this got me thinking. The fact that the mag is legally useable for hunting might give us a defense that the 8 round mag + shotgun is legal for hunting and therefore remains sporting. Sounds like the beginning of a defense, as the sporting clause seems to be opinion anyway? How many states would allow deer hunting with shotgun with 8 round mags? Hunting law only, not the ATF legaility. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steph 5 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 In TPABA's state, there is no capacity limit for magazines for deer hunting. You could even leaglly hunt with a 20-round dru--- [NOTE: this reply has been discontinued due to the potential use of a forbidden term] Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fosgate 0 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icarus 3 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 I checked the state regs in South Dakota (where I live) for hunting. The reg states any Auto or self loading firearm may not exceed the capacity to carry 6 rounds to include a chambered round. So 5rd mag is fine if one is in the pipe. That is unless waterfowl hunting, 3 is total capacity there. I checked with my buddies in Law enforcement here and they went off the ATF regs. You could carry a 50rd mag doesn't matter. So long as you pay the tax and have the thing registered with the ATF and you MUST carry a copy of that registration whenever it leaves your house with you, you are good to go.the following is from the ATF's Webpage http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/index.htm [/url] Unless you cut the barrel to less than 18 inches, convert it to a pistol, or put a full auto trigger group in your Saiga it is not an NFA weapon. The National Firearms Act has nothing to do with a converted or stock Saiga. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted March 26, 2006 Report Share Posted March 26, 2006 http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/saw-faqs.htm Q: Does the expiration of the SAW ban change laws regarding assembly of nonsporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts? A: No. The provisions of section 922® of the GCA and the regulations in 27 CFR 478.39 regarding assembly of non-sporting shotguns and semiautomatic rifles from imported parts still apply. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 10 of fewer parts= NO problem. 11 or more = BIG problem. Stock is stock. 5 round limit per 922r. Russian 8 round mag is 3 forign parts. If : 5 rd. or less= OK 8 rd = NO NO. UNLESS You convert, heathen. CONVERT , see the light! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPABA 0 Posted March 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 You convert, heathen. CONVERT , see the light! Well, I kind of like the wooden stock saiga with AK47 furniture; I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned. I don't really know how to convert and I'm just a poor/lonely college student/goldsmith... I can't really afford such things. I live in an attic and eat honey for breakfast. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 (edited) Edited March 27, 2006 by acetomatoco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TPABA 0 Posted March 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Good thing I only went deer hunting for a couple days and didn't run into anyone... a couple LEOs did hunt with me, but I only saw them after I had packed everything away, and was in the car about to head home. It's also good that since last deer season I only take the 8-rounder with me when I go to the neighborhoods that LEOs are afraid to enter. And the DNR station may not be far away, but there aren't many things natural in such neighborhoods... except cannabis that is. As far as the conversion goes... too expensive. Like, price of the gun expensive... and I have no idea where to start. I sometimes have trouble drilling straight holes into soft gold and silver... I'm a little hesitant to start drilling into my saiga. After all, it is my only 12 gauge. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steph 5 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 TPABA: Unless I misunderstood, you are from Wisconsin... There is no limit on magazine capacity in Wisconsin, except for hunting migratory birds. So no need to go to confession... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wolverine 10,360 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 TPABA: Unless I misunderstood, you are from Wisconsin... There is no limit on magazine capacity in Wisconsin, except for hunting migratory birds. So no need to go to confession... Of course by using the 8 round mag in an unconverted Saiga he has changed the approved import configuration and may well have a BATFE issue, but appparently that doesn't matter to some folks. After all BATFE would not approve the import of 8 rd. mags with the new Saigas so what is different about his? Wolverine Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 Good point Wolvie, To be clear, no one is talking about hunting laws. Except that they might provide a venue to overturn the ruling that "a saiga + 8 round mag is not sporting." If it is sporting, then it does not violate the 922r code. TPABA. Here's a sugestion, don't know if you've thought of it or not. You do NOT have to do a pistol grip conversion!! You have several options. Is yoru wood furniture US made? If not, perhaps buttstock and handguard from our own forums battlerifle might interest you. That's two of the three parts. Next, you could drop in a piston from Tromix. You are done!. Or, maybe check in with Z1500. It's possible his magazine baseplate and follower could work in a factory body (and be VERY cheap?). Then replace a forearm from Battle, he's got some pretty cool handguards. Not afraid to push a few pins out? I'd guess you could replace the trigger group, without moving it forward, in very little time. There are other ways. Just look at the list of 13 parts and see what could be done easily AND cheaply. You get the idea. You are converting your's for a different reason than most on the board, You just want to keep it ATF legal with sporter stock. So you don't have to do the "heavy lifting" of drilling, punching, filing, etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tswcowboy 0 Posted March 27, 2006 Report Share Posted March 27, 2006 rusian mil have got the 8 round mags in on the 14 of aprill i have ordered 2 about a 100 dollars each i think i am lucky and already have a 5 and 2 8 or 9 as the are i just needed a couple of spare Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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