Jump to content

How accurate are the Stock 223's


Recommended Posts

Ithink all you are going to get is whta shooter can do. I doubt there has been lab testing for ballistics with it. At 220 or so I was grouping around 7" with XM193 factory stock config. That improved when I worked on the trigger to smooth it out. I think with a lot of practice and concentration they are capable of 1 1/2 to 3/4 or so MOA with some decent mid price range ammo. But thats is shooter dependant too.

 

They are capable of solid 1 1/4+ MOA converted and scoped on good ammo, at least mine is.

 

I guess it depends on what you are trying to hit at 300, its not going to be a varminter. They are surprisingly accurate for an AK, but not in the bolt gun area of performance.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I wouldnt use ANY .223 on 'yotes at 400... 300 is pushing it... In my opinion it just isnt enough bullet at that range to be an effective coyote rifle. out to 200... sure... past that, you really ought to move up some notches... .243, .270.. and of course... .308 Just gives you more mass to do the job right, and not half ass it.

 

 

:smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you are trying to compare apples to oranges here...

 

Both are EXCELLENT rounds!

 

Both have EXCELLENT accuracy potential!

 

You want to tune your bullet to your need. smaller bullet smaller critter. Larger bullet larger critter.

 

The .223 is not designed to do what the .308 is designed to do... likewise... the .308 is overkill in the .223 requirements...

 

If you want to shoot coyotes within 200-300 yards... the .223 will do it. outside those ranges, I would recommend a larger caliber bullet.

 

if you want to shoot prarie dogs, or woodchucks out to 300 or so... the .223 is still the best bang for the buck... although... theres no reason a larger caliber wont give you even more graphic blasting power on a good hit! :lol:

 

If you want a rifle that is good on deer, or that size game... the .223 although capable in close with expert marksmanship, is not your round of choice... thats where you WANT the hitting power behind the .308 or similar sized rounds... for knockdown punch.

 

Am I helping? or am I just babbling and not really answering your question? LOL

 

:smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't have any problem with 223 out to 300yds on coyotes myself Ballistic tip still transfer plenty of energy. Once you go beyond that trajectory starts to drop off and wind will start being a factor as well. 400 yards is asking a lot from a Saiga on a paper plate sized target which is about the most size you will have to get reliable killing hits.

 

I can do 400 yard, sometimes out to 500 on prairie dogs with a AR-15 set up for varminting. The saiga isn't going to compete with that.

 

So to answer you question, no I don't think you will be happy with any Saiga going those ranges and size targets.

Link to post
Share on other sites

So the Saiga is capable out to 300 yards. For Texas hunting that will work for me. I was looking at the price/accuracy comparison and have concluded that for the money and a range of 300 yards the Saiga is a great deal.

 

I am looking for a .223 for varmit and predator hunting as the .270 and 30-06 are great for deer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Saigas are great deal, but understand going in they have a long sloppy feel to the trigger, if you are usd to a bolt action trigger it will take some getting used to. If you are used to shooting milsurp guns, then it isn't so much an issue.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Onepoint

Thanks for the trigger info. that is a great point. I am not a big fan of bolt action. I mainly use a Baikal combo 12ga/30-06 the model is IZH-94

 

tmp58968qz.jpg

 

(I wonder if it is the same factory as the Saiga?) which does not have a crisp trigger.

 

I am looking at a semi-auto in .223 vs a single shot H&R. So far I like the Saiga.

Doug

Edited by dougk
Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually I have both. The Handi rifle is the better shooter, but only with light bullets. Its a 1/12 twist compared to the 1/9 of the Saiga. The problem is on coyotes, you better hit it the 1st time, you wont have time to reload. Although technically you only get about 1 more good aimed shot if your lucky before they are gone to cover or out of range anyway.

 

Rossi makes a break action that has a tighter twist so you can use heavier bullets.

 

If you can get coyotes closer, like within a couple hundred yards, the Saiga will work fine, but out past 275- 300 there is a lot of variables that effect accuracy and the inherent limitations of the AK design magnifies them.

 

The reason I can relate is because I bought my 1st Saiga 223 was price and hoping it would be good enough for a 200 yard or less prairie dog rifle. It just isn't quite, and its hard to persuade them to stay within that range limit anyway. ;)

 

Next I tried the Handi rifle, which is OK, but has some disadvantages too in follow up shots etc. I finally but the bullet and built a lighter weight varminter upper for my AR-15. Though I have to say I haven't been compelled to sell the Saiga, its still a great rifle for the money, and plenty upgradeable to different configurations. The handi rifle really came alive wehn I started using 50gr blackhills Vmax.

 

I have thought about selling the handi rifle, but everytime I do I shoot it and the tight groups it makes keep it in the gun cabinet. It makes a great gun to pack around in the truck or on the ATV.

Edited by Onepoint
Link to post
Share on other sites

First nothing will match the all time long range varmint caliber of all time the 22-250 has no equal to this day the .223 never came close to it nor will it ever be close to it.

 

Don't under estimate the saiga's range and accuracy because of its affordable price its the russian quality that matters. I have some feed back about the saiga's in 308 being very accurate from 200yds to 400yds and even 500yds with just the 16" barrel. This raises the question on what can the 22" barreled 308 really do, how far can it shoot accurately. We haven't had much feed back on the saiga in .223rem yet but its got to be really close to the 308 in the 200yd to 350yd range and maybe even 400yds who knows yet. Maybe we'll get some info/feed back soon. My saiga's will do anything those expensive other black rifles do except JAM all the time. Which makes me wonder from nam to this day how many of our soldiers lost their lives because of this POS jamming ya its such a great rifle isn't it?

 

For a good cheap yote gun right now its the SWISS K31 7,5mm scoped. They say the distance of 200yd to 300yd is the same on the scope setting.(very close) Figure a $69 to $99 swiss rifle and what scope you want a was looking at a $200 scope with a $50 scopemount. Since the swiss FMJ 7,5mm ammo is similair to a match grade ammo your good to go. Yotes beaware...

 

Two other good choices are a Swede 6,5mm m96 mauser at samco for $169 barreled receiver. Or a '95 Chilean 7mm mauser 29" barrel both guns are very accurate and would make awesome yote guns too.

 

I built a 7mm sporter under $200.

Edited by Unknown Poster
Link to post
Share on other sites

No one said the 223 was close to the 22-250 performance wise. But the 223 has some pretty significant advantages the 22-250 will never have either, cheap off the shelf ammo for one. Barrel life for another. On a bolt gun that isn't too much of an issue and since you have to custom make one for a semi auto, it doesn't even count. For example, a 243 wssm is ballistically better than the 22-250, but since Saiga doesnt make either one of those it doesn't matter in anycase. :)

 

Don't under estimate the saiga's range and accuracy because of its affordable price its the russian quality that matters. I have some feed back about the saiga's in 308 being very accurate from 200yds to 400yds and even 500yds with just the 16" barrel.
Great battle rifle accuracy is probably not varminter accuracy. I am not slamming Saigas, but lets not start a myth here. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, all it will take is some 300 yard sub MOA targets shown.

 

My saiga's will do anything those expensive other black rifles do except JAM all the time. Which makes me wonder from nam to this day how many of our soldiers lost their lives because of this POS jamming ya its such a great rifle isn't it?
Anything? :rolleyes:

 

Trouble with the milsurps you mentioned is ammo availability and cost, which can easily make up for the low price to start with.

 

All of this is just personal preferrence, there are lots of options, you just have to decide what the cost to performance benefit compromise is to you. But like anything, there is no trade off that you don't give up something.

Edited by Onepoint
Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 2 weeks later...

I have had two in 223. about 1.5 years apart. both 16 in bbls. i have heard that the 16 in. bbls are more acc than the longer bbls, this i do not know, they say it is because of less whiplash.

I know that for instance, with the one i have right now, i shoot 2 in. shoot and see targets, open sites at 100 yards, and i will hit them 3 times out of a 5 shot group, or more. i would also say that my other one in the past was this accurate , also. but that doesn't mean the next one you pick up out of the store wouldn't hit the side of a barn, but as long as they are making their bbls the same way, chances are you will get a pretty accurate one.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

Another thing to keep in mind here is the ammo you use to begin with...

 

No matter HOW ACCURATE a rifle is... poor quality ammo will screw you every time.

 

For example... I was shooting my converted Saiga with 16" barrel and a scope... With WOLF 55G. JHP I was LUCKY to get 6" groups at 50M... and 1 FOOT groups at 100M!!!! I was SO Pissed... I actually took off the scope and tossed it in the junk box after going home pissed off from the range...

 

A month later I took two S.223's to the range... with iron sights, and more of the same wolf ammo... as well as the 20" AR15, and several other flavors of ammo, including several flavors of black hills stuff...

 

I found out that the saigas would shoot 1" groups EASILY with the iron sights with the black hills ammo... some groups even better, except for my poor shooting... The AR15, which will do 1 hole groups of 5 rounds at 50M... with good ammo would shoot the wolf in 3 and 4 inch groups at 50M!!!!!

 

Come to find out, there was nothing wrong with my Saiga .223... I was using SHITTY AMMO!!! It wouldnt even shoot out of the AR15!!!!

 

The Saigas BOTH shot black hills ammo wonderfully with the iron sights!!!

 

Needless to say... The Wolf JHP whatever batch this was... is garbage.... I have had good luck with other wolf .223 ammo... just not this particular batch... so figure that accordingly...

 

AS WITH ANY RIFLE.... Find an ammo flavor that it shoots well and stick with it... once you get it tuned right... its a winner... kinda along the lines of... if its broke dont fix it... If it works well, why fuck with it?!?!?

 

NO JHP out of my saigas any more... unless its to blast away with for kicks and no need for accuracy potentials...

 

:smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites

I was shooting 52gr JHP out mine not long ago and getting decent groups zeroing a scope. Wolf run wild in how well it shoots for me too, most of the time I can count on 4-5 MOA with it sometimes better sometimes worse.

 

Barnaul and bear ammo has been m ore consistent.

Link to post
Share on other sites

sry im new here i dont no how to do this stuff but i was wondering cuz im not old enough to buy guns yet but would a saiga 223 be a good first gu for somebody (im no stranger to guns though i go with my dad to shooting ranges all the time and shoot his old .30 carbine and things like that) and im also gonna start target shooting so also would it be a very accurate gun to use for that ?

Edited by antiCHRISt
Link to post
Share on other sites
sry im new here i dont no how to do this stuff but i was wondering cuz im not old enough to buy guns yet but would a saiga 223 be a good first gu for somebody (im no stranger to guns though i go with my dad to shooting ranges all the time and shoot his old .30 carbine and things like that) and im also gonna start target shooting so also would it be a very accurate gun to use for that ?

no. it is not fine enough, in several aspects to be a target type rifle. Just fro one thing, the trigger is definitely a mil type trigger, that you usually need a jackhammer to get the thing going initially. As far as a first second or many of , rifles, sure go ahead and get one.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mines good out to 100 yards, especially at 6:00 a.m. when I haven't had enough coffee and shooting with only 1/2 eye open. Just ask my neighbors who are now missing 3 dogs that where tearing up our garden and crapping in our yard. Less than 100 yards, my s308 makes one hellofa mess. DON'T shoot them out the bedroom window with the S308, if they are in the driveway, #1 the wife will jump 5 feet out of the bed, bitch and raise hell, #2 the mess on the concrete, and the bullet tends to leave a "mark" when it exits the depositor of the big terd, #3 you'll be late to work because you have to haul it's dead ass off. We have coyotes here in the woods behind our house, they have come as close as the back deck, but if I'm laying in bed, by the time I get to the back door, I'd prefer to use my .410 with the 10 round or the 20 gauge with the 8 round magazines. We live in so much woods, a "good" distance would be considered 100-125 yards, so the trees around here have quite a few holes

Link to post
Share on other sites
Mines good out to 100 yards, especially at 6:00 a.m. when I haven't had enough coffee and shooting with only 1/2 eye open. Just ask my neighbors who are now missing 3 dogs that where tearing up our garden and crapping in our yard. Less than 100 yards, my s308 makes one hellofa mess. DON'T shoot them out the bedroom window with the S308, if they are in the driveway, #1 the wife will jump 5 feet out of the bed, bitch and raise hell, #2 the mess on the concrete, and the bullet tends to leave a "mark" when it exits the depositor of the big terd, #3 you'll be late to work because you have to haul it's dead ass off. We have coyotes here in the woods behind our house, they have come as close as the back deck, but if I'm laying in bed, by the time I get to the back door, I'd prefer to use my .410 with the 10 round or the 20 gauge with the 8 round magazines. We live in so much woods, a "good" distance would be considered 100-125 yards, so the trees around here have quite a few holes

 

I would watch too much bragging about shooting neighbors dogs... that could get all sorts of people up in a tiff... especially those that like their dogs... not to mention, its VERY ILLEGAL to shoot any dog...

 

I know if I found out one of my neighbors shot my dog... I would be plenty pissed off...whether my dog got into their shit or not... I would probably wind up in jail with them...

 

Lets just not mention such things... that would be all for the better...

 

:smoke:

Link to post
Share on other sites
I would watch too much bragging about shooting neighbors dogs... that could get all sorts of people up in a tiff... especially those that like their dogs... not to mention, its VERY ILLEGAL to shoot any dog...

 

I know if I found out one of my neighbors shot my dog... I would be plenty pissed off...whether my dog got into their shit or not... I would probably wind up in jail with them...

 

Lets just not mention such things... that would be all for the better...

 

:smoke:

 

Not true (it is not illegal to shoot dogs) - perhaps in NY, but not TX. In fact, the county extension agency in my area sent-out a flyer a couple of years back asking people to shoot ferrel dogs. They are a big problem as they run cattle, kill newborn calves and can breed with coyotes creating hybrids that are even worse. They also have a propensity to get rabbies as they get bit by rabbid racoons, etc.

 

And as to shooting neighbor's dogs, I would suggest that some people are very irresposible about letting dogs roam freely. I had a neighbor that let their chow dog mix and her grown pups (80 pounders) run around in our area. After the bitch came into our yard and growled at one of my kids, it developed a severe case of lead poisoning (Romanian SKS). And I don't feel at all bad about this. They never came looking for her either. They really didn't care and never should have had the dogs in the first place IMO.

 

I don't really like shooting dogs, but I've had to take a few out that were problems (agressive). I am really a dog lover (we have two) but people need to be responsible with their dogs and certainly not let agressive dogs run loose.

 

Now ferrel cats on the other hand... :D

Edited by O.S.O.K.
Link to post
Share on other sites

My neighbors are always bringing home some new dogs. I don't shoot them, I shoot at them. I doesn't take long for them (the dogs :angel: )to learn to stay on there side of the fence. If they are out far enough I will dust them with a little bird shot. I live out in the country and can only see one house from mine, and as my luck would have it that one is only 30 feet or so from mine. I'd love to get my hands on whoever built that house so close to the one I live in now. Mine was built around 1850. That one was probably built in the 1970's.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Chatbox

    Load More
    You don't have permission to chat.
×
×
  • Create New...