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montero1421

Short Barrel Conversion Advice

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Hi.  I'm interested to turn my Saiga 12 into a short barrel.  Need advice on:

1. What is a good size?  Prefer the shortest possible but without affecting performance. 

2. What is a good company for doing this mod?  Don't want to do it myself.  Money is an issue.  Am on a budget but don't want to sacrifice quality.  I remember I had Arizona Armory on my bookmarks for this.  Not sure if that is good or if you recommend someone else.

3. What is the tax stamp process?  Any recommendations?

4. Should I sell my Saiga 12 as is and get one that already is short barrel?  Not sure how much I can get for it.  It's already moded a bit, folding stock, gas adjustor, pistol grip, etc., and comes with MD20.  About how much can I get for it?  And if I go this route, what do you recommend?  Another Saiga 12 short barrel?  Origin 12?  Is there something else that's good short barrel?

 

Edited by montero1421

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1) 8", threaded for rem chokes. Keep the design of the gun simple. Don't add 10lbs of junk to it. Have a stock that is inline with a decently large footprint.  Reliable is mostly a function of whether they moved the gas system properly. If they do it right, it will run any ammo above a certain energy threshold, which will be toward the hotter end of cheap trap loads and up.

2) Tromix, evlutions llc, lone star arms...

3) Get a trust, no exceptions. Just get a trust and get started. It isn't hard or scary. I do these as a pro, and you are a fool to do it without a trust. Sooner you start, the sooner you finish. Don't do a DIY trust or some random form your gunshop has on the counter. You aren't a lawyer, and neither is Jimbob at the shop. Some of the online ones are OKAY, but there are good reasons to have one made to order by someone who knows your situation, the law in your state, and does them all the time.

If you get the gun before your stamp clears, some dealers with ranges will let you play with it at their range while you are waiting for the crown's permission to take it home.

After you do your first stamp, you will realize that it was a nuisance to pay and weight, but it isn't as big a deal as most people think.

4) I would keep it and get an SBS. As for whether to commission or purchase- that's a question of cost and what's available at the time, and how specific you want your setup to be. Can't hurt to ask for quotes, and wait times. 

I see tromix builds show up surprisingly frequently from people with more money than attention span. They buy an expensive custom, shoot it a couple times, chuck it in the closet for a year or two, then get the itch for something new and hawk it for 1/3 of what it cost to get built. 

I would kind of expect that any builds with the red jacket label on them go for a discount now. Quality varied. Pretty good before show, not as consistent after.

As with the answer on #3, sooner you start the sooner you finish. Custom orders often take a while, but that can be about even with the tax stamp wait time, so not as big a deal as you might think.

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Here is some general info about the process that I put together. I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV. 

 

 

Gunfun, if you see any glaring issues with this please do let me know and I will address it. Thank you!

ATF Efile info
Go here, scroll all the way to the bottom and register...
 
 
You will need to make a decision on how you want to apply on the Form 1.

Individual applicant: Some choose to do it as themselves, individual. No one else can have access to the weapon or possession of it but you in this case. When you die, someone needs to understand that there is a limited amount of time to do a decedent transfer of ownership. Technically, no one else can be in possession of it or have access to it, so it could create legal issues. I do not recommend applying as an individual unless you have no relatives that you actually like, no friends, and really don't give a rip what happens to the item after you are gone. That is about as efficiently as I can state it.
 
OR...

Trust Applicant: Most people choose to use a trust as it offers a bit more flexibility and has a beneficiary named to leave the item to in the event of your death. It is a lot more clear cut when dealing with the ATF about transfer of ownership and, as I understand it, they cannot automatically seize it if they are compelled to do that since it is part of a trust. Trustees can be in possession of the item while you are not in direct control of it. If you plan to keep the weapon in a safe and someone else has access to it, it is a good idea to name them as a trustee on the trust. You may be able to get around that access issue with a trigger lock or something else of that nature, but I am not sure and I am not a lawyer.


Where to get a trust: Go to https://www.silencershop.com/catalog/product/view/id/251/s/nfa-gun-trust/category/5/ and for $129 you can have a gun specific trust created or have a lawyer do it that understands the process. You get to name it. Remember that name has to be engraved in the weapon, so keep it short. Don't make it anything like the 'John Edward Doe and Jane Elizabeth Doe Family Firearms NFA Gun Revocable Living Trust'. I have seen it done that way and it is patently stupid considering it will need to be engraved on the weapon as well as the city and state. It does not have to be your name. It can be whatever you want. Mine is evlblkwpnz trust, for example. Nice and short, unique too. They may ask you to provide a bunch of trustee names. The best thing to do is wait until you have approvals for what you want before you add any. Any trustee that you add will need to get fingerprints and passport photos done for each Form 1 and Form 4 application, so I recommend keeping the amount of trustees to a minimum (1, a good choice would be a trusted family member or very trusted friend who respects firearms, the law, and has good walking around sense) and make sure they will not drag their feet getting prints and photos done later on so the process for future applications will not take 50 forevers to complete. The trustee can be in possession of the item without you being there to babysit it and being in direct control of it. You will need to name a beneficiary for it to be a legitimate trust (as far as I know, which may be wrong), but the beneficiary does not need to be mentioned in the application process. It does not have to be a family member. I recommend making sure this person actually wants to inherit a firearm, will do the necessary legal steps to take possession of it properly and legally when you die, and will not get themselves in trouble with it. A friend who loves firearms and may not ever be able to afford a nice SBS or whatever who would truly cherish it would be a great choice. You can add all of the items you want to this type of trust, silencers, short rifles, short shotguns, money, etc.
 
 
 
Weapon info to be submitted in the Form 1 Application to Make and Register:
 
 
In section 4 of the Form 1...

Box A
Manufacturer will be Izhmash, Russia
Look on the weapon for importer markings. Include that importer name and location info too. It is usually toward the rear of the weapon.

Box B
Short Barreled Shotgun

Box C
12 ga

Box D
Saiga-12

Box E
Barrel length will be 8.0"

Box F
Overall length will be 26.75"

Box G
Serial number

Box H
This will have your individual name or trust name and location where the item/s will be kept.
Examples:
 
Individual...
 
Your full name
(YOUR CITY), (YOUR STATE)
 
 
 
Trust...
 
(TRUST NAME) TRUST
(YOUR CITY), (YOUR STATE)
 

Box I
Any lawful purpose
 
 

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On 12/10/2019 at 10:56 AM, evlblkwpnz said:

Oh yeah, keep what you have as long as it hasn't been hacked up. This is a prime example of what I mean...

 

20191113_115331 resized.jpg

That fugly bolt looks really familiar. And that grind job wasn’t my doing promise. Still worked . Goes to show how tough a Saiga is.

and Mr. Hitch (Evlutionz) top notch fella. 👍🏻

Edited by Engine45
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On 1/24/2020 at 9:34 AM, Engine45 said:

That fugly bolt looks really familiar. And that grind job wasn’t my doing promise. Still worked . Goes to show how tough a Saiga is.

and Mr. Hitch (Evlutionz) top notch fella. 👍🏻

It is a star now. I'm going to see how long it lasts. I may actually put in my SBS just to put some rounds on it. People like to try and look at the action on mine. I'll let them copy that, lol. Oh yeah, super lightweight bolt, that's my secret... ;)

So funny, I was thinking about you a matter of about 5 seconds before I came here. Pretty sure tomorrow is the day!

 

 

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