Bill 0 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Hey all you guys,let me start by apologizing for 'helping' get the ' 8 round mag' topic in 'for sale' off track. Let me just do a quick recap- If anyone-dinzag,GOB,Bravo26,Cobra,Tonyrumore,etc, can lend be an 8 rounder I will get with my friend who makes molds for plastic injection molding companies to- 'get some stem cells and clone it ' -do a quote on getting a mold made along with material cost. Maybe mutate it to a 10 rounder. I will take care of it or I will pay for it.If needed I will put a $100 security deposit down. What I need to know from you guys is what are REASONABLE prices that you are willing to spend for either an american 8 or 10 rounder or how many you think would sell, this could affect the tooling cost-ie if lower qty,maybe tooling can be lower just to make what is needed,if 10K of the things will sell,tooling will have to be higher quality . . I am not intending to inflame this subject,but WILL get $$ asap to help put this 'zombie' in the ground permanently. Let me know guys. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
greatmoose 4 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 Is it only for 12g or can you also do 20s? I'd definately be interested a few for my 20. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
glock_forty5 0 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 What I need to know from you guys is what are REASONABLE prices that you are willing to spend for either an american 8 or 10 rounder or how many you think would sell, this could affect the tooling cost-ie if lower qty,maybe tooling can be lower just to make what is needed,if 10K of the things will sell,tooling will have to be higher quality . For either 8 or 10 rounds, you will sell a lot at $50 a mag. I am not sure you are looking to do a huge volume. I think that you are going to have a one time run and need to find out how many you could make, how much people are willing to pay and how many they will buy in order to determine if the effort will be worth your time and trouble. All that being said, I do not know what reasonable is, but I would buy 4 or 5 if priced at $75 and three or four at $80+. G45 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 The lending part - how long you need? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blaster 0 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 The cheaper the cost, the more you will sell, provided that they are high quality. I tend to take my life very seriously, and since I only have one, am not willing to gamble it on cheap, if-fey, magazines. If you could price them at $ 25 - 30 you will sell a boatload. If you price them at $40 - 50, you will sell a train load. If you price them at $60 + you will still make your money back plus a profit, but at this point the higher the price the lower the sales. Whoever does this first is going to make a ton of money because the will have an entire planet of Saiga 12 owners as their exclusive market! Additionally, in my humble opnion, the limited magazine capacity is one of the weakest links in the S-12 system. Whoever in this country is the first to come out with a reliable, reasonably priced product is going to have a serious gravy train to look forward to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted April 10, 2006 Report Share Posted April 10, 2006 I didn't go here in the FS thread as it was a FS thread. Do you know of the efforts already underway for domestic 8 and 10 round mags? Not trying to pee on your parade, but several members have efforts underway, close to fruition is my guess. A "major" manufacture has announced interest in making these (but is no where close to doing so). Just warning you that you'd be starting months behind, and would end up competing with 2 different 10 round solutions. You might have a hard time recouping costs. Having said that, I'm all for competition (it's the american way). Get these to market and I'll buy some on principal alone. I just don't want you to get a rude awakening 8K into the project .... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Someone will be the first. They will make good $$$$ if they can sell the first 100-500 at $60 - - $65 each. , 4 for $200. Nothing will get you'r competition off their asses like seeing YOU making $$$$. They may be tooling up to do 10,000 a batch at $40. Even so YOU made you'r bucks. Maybe you could even join #3 and sell for $30 at a decent profit. Gotta LOVE the free market! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Illumini 0 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 If someone put out just decent products they could make a mint, not to mention other systems like the Vepr .308 (oh please one day) or the hi point carbine. In fact just making regular cap mags you can fill a huge market demand due to unreliable import procedures and scam prices. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvasqu03 21 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Dear God, not this again. In case you're wondering, I already went to someone who gets injection molds made and got a quote. It's not profitable unless you're sure you can sell over 1K of them for about $65 each. That's just to recoup your cost. I'm not sure exactly what type of procedure the other guy making them out of polymer is using, but it seems it's an option other than injection molding. The other guy is using some type of sheet metal stamping. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 0 Posted April 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Hey group, I appreciate any and all the input. 1. I take my life continuing very serious also so I would never think of making/selling something to jip people-been burned myself and do not like it. my morals,ethics,etc preclude my from this. 2. If I can get them made reasonably and the quality is factory spec-at least-then why not. Hey IF I can beat the others I do not mean to rain on anyones parade but if I can make a little $$ and it is as part of a hobby of mine,all the better. 3. I have been seeeing and hearing of the mythical 10 rounders for awhile now-even before I rejoined the forum,and it seems there is always a 'pending' . being a single person,if I can get my pal to do this-make the mold- I do not have to go through a comittee. 4.The figure of $65k seems a bit steep,but trying to do the tooling to bend sheetmetal in the correct curve,spotwelding,etc IS costly. 5. Greatmoos-I can sure get a quote for doing the 20's but seems more people are into the 12's-PLEASE correct me if wrong-may be able to have a mold insert done to change the size out. 6. Dinzeg- I will find out from my friend how long he would need a sample for measuring and post it before asking anyone for a 'loaner'-I will put up a $100 security deposit for it so anything would happen,but I am very careful with others' stuff and I expect the same. Finally-I called my pal up a couple times and finally got his wife-figures my luck- he was in bed sick-he told the wifey he would call me tomorrow,so I am hoping to get the ball going. BTW,can one of you please post or pm me the dimensions on an 8 rounder-LxWxH and if the mags have any steel inthem besides the spring,and where,this way I can get him an idea of what size mold,etc. I am hoping he can scan the loaner mag-has a fancy 3d scanner/solid model program at work so should be quick to figure out. Thank you all again-just trying to 'help the cause' and put the zombie of the 10 rounder in the ground for good-hell I AM going to get a S12 sonner or later-hope for a tromix SBS when I move. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tetraptous 0 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Frankly, if you wanted to ensure good cashflow, I'd start selling 8-rd mags at about $120 - competive with the 8-rd imports from Russia, and 10-rd at perhaps $150-$180. As sales began to dwindle, I'd decrease the price until it came closer to your cost. I personally wouldn't buy until the price was below $80 for the 10-rd, but we know that some people would pay more - they already do! You don't need to keep a fixed cost from the beginning out - you start selling at $65 a pop and you'll have a gigantic waitlist - speeding production raises per unit costs. It's also fair - if you only sell 100, you need to charge a higher per unit cost to recoup your tooling expenses (which for polymer mags will be the largest cost). By starting high and dropping the price until you maximize profits, you expose yourself to the least risk in case production stops or demand drops for one reason or another (plastics factory explodes, RAA is allowed to import 8-rd mags, Saiga shotgun banned by Congress, whatever.) You take the risks, milk the market for what it's worth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ikillrobotsdead 0 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 ok so how could i go about building my own mag? is there any info out there for instructions? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mike1972 1 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 (edited) So now there will be three competitors for the mags? Hmmmmm, sounds like who ever gets em out first will be the ones who makes some cash.... All others will probably not do so well. Knowing this, I think it will help speed up the delivery to market time.... As for myself, I would probably get at least one from each & see who makes the best ones for the money. ETA: HOWEVER, when the 8 & 10 round mags ARE finally available, it should make the Saiga12 a MUCH more popular gun than it is now. The lack of mags is what keeps these guns from being real hot sellers I think. So that would mean more folks buying the guns & needing the mags too. But, it would also mean that the price for the gun itself will probably rise as well. Edited April 11, 2006 by mikw1972 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stokstad 4 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Frankly, if you wanted to ensure good cashflow, I'd start selling 8-rd mags at about $120 - competive with the 8-rd imports from Russia, and 10-rd at perhaps $150-$180. As sales began to dwindle, I'd decrease the price until it came closer to your cost. I personally wouldn't buy until the price was below $80 for the 10-rd, but we know that some people would pay more - they already do! You don't need to keep a fixed cost from the beginning out - you start selling at $65 a pop and you'll have a gigantic waitlist - speeding production raises per unit costs. It's also fair - if you only sell 100, you need to charge a higher per unit cost to recoup your tooling expenses (which for polymer mags will be the largest cost). By starting high and dropping the price until you maximize profits, you expose yourself to the least risk in case production stops or demand drops for one reason or another (plastics factory explodes, RAA is allowed to import 8-rd mags, Saiga shotgun banned by Congress, whatever.) You take the risks, milk the market for what it's worth. Why are you incouraging him to screw us? Don't you need mags? 8 round mags will never be imported by RAA. So eliminate that worry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 Working for a company that does a lot of injection molding myself, $50-$60 retail would be a reasonable price I suggest doing quantity based pricing where one mag is $60.00, 2-5 are $55.00, and so on. I'd likely buy 20-40 for my own personal use...I do a lot of shooting, and magazines are a perishable item. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted April 11, 2006 Report Share Posted April 11, 2006 ok so how could i go about building my own mag? is there any info out there for instructions? Check out the tech section - I have instructions on joining 2 factory 5's into a 10. Those instructions are for the S-20, but I've personally made several for the S-12 as well. So have others. PM me if you want me to do it. Not factory or U.S., but they work great! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z1500 0 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Working for a company that does a lot of injection molding myself, $50-$60 retail would be a reasonable price I suggest doing quantity based pricing where one mag is $60.00, 2-5 are $55.00, and so on. I'd likely buy 20-40 for my own personal use...I do a lot of shooting, and magazines are a perishable item. That's pretty much how my pricing will be. A multi tier structure to modivate people to but a bunch. Selling volume is the key to making a injection molding project work. I think I'll cut a deal on the first batch to get the ball rolling. Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Enticing picture for sure there Kevin! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
epsylum 0 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Enticing picture for sure there Kevin! +1 looks freakin awesome in the gun. Not that much bigger than an 8 rounder. I will be buying multiples so that tiered pricing sounds great! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berszerk 0 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 (edited) I personally dont care who I buy from, I dont know any of you, that said the first one out gets my money. This subject has been beaten to death with no results, and even snide remarks when the people that are supposed to be making them are asked about thier progress or no response at all, btw not a very good idea if your looking for future customers. I will talk with cold hard cash no maybeys or last January bullshit, today, now and in a large quantity after I make sure the product works, I realize the work involved and appreciate the people doing it just keep us informed. Edited April 12, 2006 by Berszerk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lonestar 0 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 You could always make 20 or 30 round Saiga .308 magazines. People were going crazy when someone said they would make those....but they were never produced. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvasqu03 21 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Hey Kevin, Your mag looks great. Not to beat a dead horse, and I really don't want to start this discussion again, but maybe it might be a good idea to mold some text onto some inoccuous part (I'm thinking the bottom of the floorplate) that says something to the effect of "for use on US manufactured firearms only, use on foreign firearms may be a violation of federal law." You could tone it down a little, but basically it would take any blame off you if someone uses it on a stock Saiga, and might (I repeat might) take away one possible excuse BATF might use to reclassify the guns as DD's. Just a thought. You could always make 20 or 30 round Saiga .308 magazines. People were going crazy when someone said they would make those....but they were never produced. Yeah, that was DAEWOO. These are actually the ones I looked into having made, but not actually having a Saiga .308, or magazine at the time, once I received the quote I was less than thrilled with the idea of buying one to start the process. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Z1500 0 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Hey Kevin,Your mag looks great. Not to beat a dead horse, and I really don't want to start this discussion again, but maybe it might be a good idea to mold some text onto some inoccuous part (I'm thinking the bottom of the floorplate) that says something to the effect of "for use on US manufactured firearms only, use on foreign firearms may be a violation of federal law." You could tone it down a little, but basically it would take any blame off you if someone uses it on a stock Saiga, and might (I repeat might) take away one possible excuse BATF might use to reclassify the guns as DD's. Just a thought. Yep, they are marked "AGP Arms AZ, USA" on the mag body, follower and floor plate. Kevin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted April 12, 2006 Report Share Posted April 12, 2006 Hey Kevin, Not to beat a dead horse, and I really don't want to start this discussion again, but maybe it might be a good idea to mold some text onto some inoccuous part (I'm thinking the bottom of the floorplate) that says something to the effect of "for use on US manufactured firearms only, use on foreign firearms may be a violation of federal law." You could tone it down a little, but basically it would take any blame off you if someone uses it on a stock Saiga, Saiga 12s only have 13 foreign control parts as per Soupbowl ATF letter. 3 of them would be replaced with the U.S. made magazine. Therefore, a stock Saiga12 with a U.S. magazine would have 10 total foreign control parts, and thus, 922 r compliant. http://www.concentric.net/~Ldrennan/page12.html The list counts 14 parts with a pistol grip. So, its really 13 parts on a stock Saiga 12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 +3 on the awsome pic....makes me glad to see they are coming along Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cvasqu03 21 Posted April 13, 2006 Report Share Posted April 13, 2006 Saiga 12s only have 13 foreign control parts as per Soupbowl ATF letter. 3 of them would be replaced with the U.S. made magazine. Therefore, a stock Saiga12 with a U.S. magazine would have 10 total foreign control parts, and thus, 922 r compliant. http://www.concentric.net/~Ldrennan/page12.html The list counts 14 parts with a pistol grip. So, its really 13 parts on a stock Saiga 12. Now THAT is truly aswome news that I was not aware of. Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 0 Posted April 15, 2006 Author Report Share Posted April 15, 2006 Hi all, I want to 'apologize' for starting this up again like I have but have enjoyed the replies and the pic of the 10 in progress-I think that is the first actual pic of one being created. - I ended up have a crap week so sorry I did not add any more info-part of the reason is my friend is STILL miserable with whatever crap is going around- I SWEAR I have nothing but bad luck and timing for trips,projects,etc and a good portion of you are somewhat pissed at me probably. My friend is supposed to show for dinner tonight,if I can prod him I will see what he thinks of the project. I will get a post up asap on this,and I do like the suggestion of the 20 gauge 8-10, 20/30 round .308 mags being wanted also. Thank's to all of you guys on this and please do not think i maliciously intended to poke the hornet nest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 Would be good to see some 20-30 round mags for the .308. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
panaceabeachbum 0 Posted April 16, 2006 Report Share Posted April 16, 2006 any idae on time to production z1500? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Donn 0 Posted April 21, 2006 Report Share Posted April 21, 2006 ok so how could i go about building my own mag? is there any info out there for instructions? Check out the tech section - I have instructions on joining 2 factory 5's into a 10. Those instructions are for the S-20, but I've personally made several for the S-12 as well. So have others. PM me if you want me to do it. Not factory or U.S., but they work great! Do you think that you could do this with my browning bar II 300 WM magazines and for how much ? Or does anyone have any advice in this. Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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