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G3 Mag adaptors - It's taken far too long; Who's still interes


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#1 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 09:34 AM

After many false starts by honest folks and a few dead ends by pathological liars, PvtPyle and Tromix seem to be representing a boda fide 20rd Saiga-308 high capacity mag in production. These are people who have promised and delivered on many occasions.

With a real plug and play high cap mag solution in sight, the practicality of another project now must be re-evaluated.

In short, the G3 mag adaptor was developed in August 2004. That was during the 1994 domestic so called "assault weapon" ban. During the ban, a high cap magazine could only be modified if it still worked in the original gun, and no new ones could be made for civilian use. My G3 mag adaptor satisfied that criteria and was legal back in August 2004.

Then, as we had all hoped and prayed, the ban expired on schedule. High cap mags were now legal to make and modify as drastically as we wanted. The door was open to something different, but nothing walked through immediately. Now that seems to have changed for real.

Another difference in the times was that Saiga 308s were being wholesaled as low as $220 for a synthetic carbine. Add the prices of a conversion and adaptor and you're still competitive with a G3 or FAL, with Saiga accuracy and AK durability. Now they'll be over $100 more, and looking to stay that way. Still fair for such a fine rifle, but not something one would be as comfortable modifying.

That doesn't mean there's no reason for a G3 cap mag adaptor. Here are advantages it still has:
1.) It is more or less a straight insertion magazine. Not as much as an AR-15, but G3 owners know what I'm talking about. This is advantageous for mag changes.
2.) Surplus G3 mags are $2 a piece, give or take. You can't make mags for that price, period. I'm going to guess that prices for these upcoming mags will be $40-60, which is quite fair and believable. We're talking 20-30 times as much. My current tentative price for a G3 mag adaptor would be $100. So at about three mags the G3 conversion would be more economical.
3.) As this conversion was designed with the ban still in place, it may also be legal in states that have their own bans that grandfather existing pre-ban mags. NY comes to mind.

Now for the drawbacks of the G3 mag conversion.
1.) It adds a part and weight to the rifle. Nothing major in my opinion, but it does. And it limits the space you have in the trigger guard. I'm ok with it, but it's not a strength.
2.) It moves the magazine well rearward and requires replacement of the original recoil rod limiter with a BlackJack buffer for proper feeding timing. This is not really a bad thing either, but it too limits your options.
3.) It requires skilled modification to the rifle on the part of the owner or a licensed gunsmith who's comfortable with the project. If you want my opinion of how much skill, I'd rate it this way - that it's an equivalent step along this progression: 1 - Saiga conversion to p-grip, 2 - Saiga X39 conversion to hi-cap, 3 - Saiga 223 conversion to hi-cap (varies), 4 - Stamped AK build, 5 - Switching a regular AK to underfolder or AMD style sidefolder, 6 - G3 mag adaptor conversion to Saiga-308, 7 - rebarreling an AK trunion, 8 - building an AK receiver from flat or bent blank.
4.) This conversion is tentatively permanent. What I mean by that is that it would take the same skill to switch it back to factory mags as it would to tweak and rework it to make it work with the G3 mags.
5.) The G3 mags do require modification. It is not significant, and they will still work in a G3. But you can't just pick up any old G3 mag and stick it in. Economically the G3 mags are still better, but this is a limitation.
6.) It alters the structure of the receiver by removing the cross post, a part more important in construction than in operation. The sides of the mag well brace the receiver to compensate. To me this is not a big deal, but it is a drawback. Lots of folks say the scope rail is not much good of a mount anyway for the 308 (even Robarm says so on the thicker receivered VEPRs), but I would say there's a good chance the siderail scope mount would be off.

Now don't just get scared by the longer list of drawbacks. It's just that the advantages are simple and clear, while the drawbacks require explanation for you to know whether or not they make the difference.

There's been a long saga of false starts, tentative interest, and updates to the design, and here are pictures of the current one, the MkII:
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

In explanation and apology to those sincerely interested, the whole dang thing has taken far too long. I have what I feel are legitimate reasons, mostly relate to the fact that one must make ends meet, and that this project is so sensitive to details that I feel I shouldn't take prepayments. It might have moved things faster, but probably time would have shown it not to be fast enough.

So with this information on the table, I'd like to know who would still be interested in my adaptor conversion for a Saiga-308 to use modified G3 mags. If not, I have other projects to be involved in, some non-commercial. One of them involves seriously showing up RAA regarding the Saiga 30-06 that was supposed to be in fall 2002. Another is what may be one of the best bullpup conversions possible. And of course customized wooden furniture for Saigas and, coming soon, other AKs.

But if people are still interested in a G3 mag adaptor for a Saiga-308, I want to come through. Just let me know.

Hope to observe the right priorities in order to make the most of my efforts, for everyone's benefit.

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 09 June 2006 - 09:43 AM.

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#2 macbeau

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 01:22 PM

If the Tromix / FBMG mag thing dosen't pan out, I am still on board. I have no reason to expect that it won't, but we've all been down this road numerous times before...

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#3 PvtPyle

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 01:39 PM

We are too far into this out of our own pockets to turn back now. We are far beyond, "Hey, is this a cool idea?/!". We have committed to making molds and they are under construction.
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Lo they do call to me.
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#4 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 02:42 PM

I have every bit of confidence in this current offering of mags. From the schedule suggested by FBMG, it looks as though we'll know for sure about his mags at about the smae time as I'd have to make a decision one way or the other. My tentative plan has been to work consistently on furniture orders until I'm 100% caught up, then in the break between the next wave of interest I'd shift into assembly line mode and crank out a few G3 mag adaptors.

Here's what I really need to know - Is the FBMG magazine option officially people's first choice and is any interest in my mag adaptor system contingent upon their mags not working out?
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#5 okie shooter

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Posted 08 June 2006 - 05:25 PM

Guys, molds arnt cheap, not cheap at all, its thousands up to tens of thousands to get them made and this is after the devlopement of the mag is done, and still doesn't mean the mags will release from the molds. Thus these guys have some money involved before the first mag is built, packaged and sold. I don't imagine it will be allowed to fail as stated above.
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#6 ThousandSon

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Posted 09 June 2006 - 09:29 AM

Hey BR ,I am trying to mock up a project and I may have a need for one of these and I will let you know. I will email you a couple ?? on this item so I can do some 'hhhhmmmmm.....' as I stare w/my eyes glazed over at my project-or maybe I had too many donuts?!--- :rolleyes: :lolol: talk to ya later....
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#7 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:26 PM

Can I assume that the mag adaptors are at best a second choice option with FBMG's mags being everyone's first choice?

Anyone whose first choice is still the mag adaptors please speak up. If everyone's attention is now on the FBMG mags, I'll join you on the sofa and bring the chips and dip.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#8 Kyrinn

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:37 PM

I am far more interested in plug and play factory magazines, even if they cost a premium price, in comparison to modifying both my rifle and my magazines, however cheap they may be.

However, I would suggest that you do not abandon your plans for the mag-adaptor.

Lastly, I'm eager to hear of your bullpup modification ideas/progress, as that configuration (perhaps with stock Saigas) is of special interest to me -- perhaps even more so in conjunction with the FBMG mags.

Best,


#9 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 01:44 PM

My current bullpup plans are for the Saiga-223 and are incompatible with the FBMG mags, but I may end up developing a version that would be.

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 12 June 2006 - 01:46 PM.

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#10 G O B

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 05:16 PM

BRG3 Hang on to the plans, as at this time you have the only solution not made of

UNOBTANIUM


The reports of new mags are still reports. If none make it to the real world-you still have a viable option.


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#11 Kyrinn

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Posted 12 June 2006 - 09:47 PM

My current bullpup plans are for the Saiga-223 and are incompatible with the FBMG mags, but I may end up developing a version that would be.

Well, yeah, if they are .223s then that makes sense.
I'm very interested in a .223 bullpup. Please keep us posted on that.
Galil >> AR Mag adaptor would be great on those.

Best,


#12 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 07:35 AM

I actually had a different method in mind from the Galil adaptors. This would be a permanent conversion similar to the G3 mag system, and the mag repositioning would be key. The point of it would be to make the most of the space benefits of straight insertion mags in order to make a more comfortable and natural feeling bullpup.

But to the same end, a Saiga-308 with 22" heavy barrel would also be an excellent candidate, even without straight insertion mags. The width of the G3 mags is too great to allow a bullpup trigger linkage inside the receiver, so the FBMG mags would be the way to go there.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#13 glitch308

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:03 PM

I'm still interested. I think a rifle utilizing plentiful cheap magazines is better than one using mags that are rare and expensive. G3 mags can be had for $10 at any gun show. The new 20 round Saiga mags started at 3 for $100. They don't even exist yet, and already the price has jumped to $45 each. I admire the spirit of those working to make plug-in hi-caps a reality, but for the number of mags I want to keep on hand that price is out of reach.

Someone recently wondered why a person would sell a Saiga 308 for lack of hi-cap mags. Simple. If I can afford only one rifle, I want a 308 that accepts hi-caps and I will sacrifice full power 308 capability to get it. With the higher price of the new Saigas, other hi-cap 308 rifles are now more attractive.

*BUT* if I can adapt my new-out-of-the-box Saiga, with it's accuracy, reliability and full power 308 capability, to accept cheap hi-cap mags, then brother, I'm all over it!

Maybe I'm too little too late, but I wanted to share my thinking.

Edited by glitch308, 25 July 2006 - 10:05 PM.


#14 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:16 PM

I wouldn't say you're too late, if you're not alone and/or can be patient.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#15 glitch308

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Posted 25 July 2006 - 10:39 PM

Patience I've got. You and I have PMed on this before, and I'm still interested!

I also prefer metal mags over polymer. Plastic has it's place, but long term it tends to get brittle. (Pop the hood on a 10 to 15 year old car and see how the plastic electrical connectors tend to snap in your hand.) Metal mags will remain serviceable long after plastic ones have crumbled to dust. Just something else to think about.

Edited by glitch308, 25 July 2006 - 10:41 PM.


#16 Reveprend Franz

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Posted 26 July 2006 - 07:47 AM

I also prefer metal mags over polymer. Plastic has it's place, but long term it tends to get brittle. (Pop the hood on a 10 to 15 year old car and see how the plastic electrical connectors tend to snap in your hand.) Metal mags will remain serviceable long after plastic ones have crumbled to dust. Just something else to think about.


Ditto. I didnt notice this thread before, because i am not a s-308 owner, but, as a longtime owner of hk-g3
-91 clones, im interested in your mag adaptor, if not more interested in buying a saiga-308, as i like to keep it simple, (KISS) and total mag interchangability would be nothing short of perfection. Not to mention, there are plenty of 30rd g3 aftermarket mags availiable. :smoke: 20rd plastic is nice, sure, but 30rd steel cant be beat...

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#17 glitch308

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Posted 13 September 2006 - 06:26 PM

Have any immediate plans to again offer the adapter? I'm one guy still interested.

Your AK furniture looks terrific. Where can I read more about it? If you've started a thread I missed it.

#18 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 14 September 2006 - 09:29 PM

My furniture is discussed on these threads.

General Custom Furniture discussion and pics:
http://forum.saiga-1...topic=9471&st=0

Items on hand and ready to ship:
http://forum.saiga-1...showtopic=10165


Regarding mag adaptors and other projects, here's where things stand - at the moment my schedule and facility arrangements are such that the most I can do is the custom furniture orders. In order to best serve paying (ie prepaid/deposit paid) customers, I have to give them highest priority.

But my current arrangement will be replaced by a much more efficient one in the coming months. At that time I expect to be able to take chunks of time for production runs (even small ones) and R&D.

In short, I expect to be able to offer a lot of nice things in the future, both long overdue and never before heard of. But all in good time.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#19 glitch308

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Posted 15 September 2006 - 07:15 PM

I will definitely "Watch this space".

#20 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 09 October 2006 - 07:24 AM

Since I'm linking to this thread as a general G3 mag adaptor one, here is a link to another thread which link sto all the others.

http://forum.saiga-1...wtopic=5920&hl=
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#21 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 11 December 2006 - 09:06 AM

FBMG's mags are out, past beta testing, and well received thus far by the general membership. From a man who knows how hard a hi cap mag solution is for the S-308, I have to say GREAT JOB!

I have been honored to receive continued messages expressing interest in this mag adaptor project nonetheless. Some have been torn between this and FBMG's mags, waiting on their results. Others have expressed that they would prefer my adapter conversion to FBMG's mags in any scenario.

I have no problem with minimum quantities, but will price accordingly.

So the question now is, with FBMG's mags out and working, who is still interested in a G3 mag adaptor? Please read up on all applicable threads to consider your response.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#22 cma g21

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 07:40 AM

I suppose it depends on how many mags you want to have.

At over $50 shipped for FBMG compared to less than $3 (I paid $1.20) for G3 mags it wouldn't take long for your adaptor to pay for itself.

I would certainly buy one.

Hope you can produce this (as well as the Mini-14 adaptor).
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#23 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:15 PM

Thank you for expressing your continued interest. I will investigate this prospect further. I think there will be one more notable design change due.

I am taking steps to streamline my furniture production in order to make more time in my schedule. I will try to make room for this project.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#24 IrishDevil

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Posted 29 April 2007 - 08:58 PM

I'd buy at least 2. I have 20 FBMG mags, but have 50 G3 mags just sitting and waiting. I bought them just because they're cheap right now, same with FAL mags.

#25 busy_squirrel

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 01:16 PM

I'm interested IF I can still use old mags too. :unsure:

That was why I thought the .40 would suffice, with normal, cheaper loads for everyday gunfights and the only need for the 200 grain hardcast loads would be bears, biker gangs, and mimes.


#26 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 07:43 PM

That's possibly the biggest downside of this conversion. It is almost irreversible. Look over the points in the first post on this thread and see which are important to you.

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 30 April 2007 - 07:44 PM.

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#27 DaGroaner

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Posted 30 April 2007 - 09:42 PM

I'm interested and would buy one or two.
All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing.

-- Edmund Burke.

Remember the ancient saying: Vis pacem - para bellum - if you want peace - be ready for the war. Within the whole history of our civilization, no one disproved it. So let the weapons be not the means of terror, but the way to defend peace, democracy and law. I wish you all health, success and fruitful work. With best wishes, Mikhail Kalashnikov

#28 busy_squirrel

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 01:34 AM

Sorry was in a hurry posting at work. +1 & +2 are good but outweighed by -3 & -5.

Guess I'm out, unless I get more guns.
:killer:

That was why I thought the .40 would suffice, with normal, cheaper loads for everyday gunfights and the only need for the 200 grain hardcast loads would be bears, biker gangs, and mimes.


#29 cma g21

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 08:10 AM

After reading and rereading this thread, and giving it lots of thought, I'm somewhat less sure about buying one at this time. Of course, if a ban passes before I can get the FBMG mags, this becomes a must buy!

I am more interested in your Mini-14 mag conversion, and will definately buy (at least) one!
Calling an illegal alien an "undocumented immigrant" is like calling a drug dealer an "unlicensed pharmacist"

#30 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 01 May 2007 - 10:03 AM

That's understandable. That's why these haven't been produced. Not enough people have been sure enough to buy. I made "The Challenge" a year ago last winter, for 5 firm commitments. It came up short. I'll try it again in the coming months and see what comes of that.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376




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