Consensus on most reliably feeding & cycling ammo for the S-12

[cpileri 0]

But there did not seem to be any definite consensus on the MOST reliable Brand, Load, and Length (i.e. specific loads) of 12ga for the Saiga-12.

 

 

Personally, the very best was (well, technically still is since the shotty is somewhere making its owner happy) the steel-hull barnaul. Seems that rounded crimp and smooth profile are just the ticket. Now, though the only type of that ammo left is BBB shot- which is fine, except i am looking for a supply of OObuck. I have exactly ONE box of barnaul OOb. Should've bought more when it was around.

 

On low-gas settings, the some loads are too light to cycle. Others cycle Ok but get caught on feeding by a 'point of the star' crimp edge. Others are too weak to eject and get stuck 3/4 out.

 

So in the absence of barnaul buckshot, is there any real consensus on ultra-reliable 12ga ammo for the S-12 owner? Specific loads only please. *

 

Also, please feel free to suggest any mods you did perhaps to the feed ramp/lip, mag lips, mag follower, ejector, etc to improve reliability AND THAT WORKED ( )!

 

C-

 

* if yours is lucky enough to feed everything you put into it, we're jealous. But if you dnt have any 2nd hand experience that can be turned into advice; or any info on modifications as above... well, then please don't post to gloat! (i know you wont, but the Trolls might)

[beerslurpy 1]

Everything I used cycled well. I use S&B 00 buck because it is the cheapest.

 

My only worry is that leaving the gun loaded for a long time will deform the tops of the shells, but it hasnt caused reliability worries, even after months of sitting. Some members did report snags though. I wonder if loading the top round as a slug or a high-brass shell would prevent deformation.

[cpileri 0]

Thanks, Beerslurpy: what shell length?

C-

[TonyRumore 1,332]

I have fired 250 rounds of SB double-aught buck and they work great. For light loads the Winchester AA Super Sport and Super Handicap run the best for me. The other light Walmart type shells will barely cycle some guns, and won't work at all in others.

 

My USAS-12 is even more finicky with light loads. It will run the AA SS and SH just fine. Absolutely no other low base shell will cycle that particular gun and I've tested at least 20 different loads in it.

[ironhead7544 35]

My S-12 cycles any slug load perfectly. Tried a bunch of different types, new and from the 70ties with no problem. Will be trying shot loads this week. The shotloads will deform on the top two rounds if left for a week or so. The S&B rounds had the top wad come off. Wouldnt use for long term storage. Popped the covers back on and seems to feed ok. The slugs deform a little but feed fine. If you want to keep it loaded then 2 slugs on top with the rest shotloads would work.

[scoutjoe 276]

both of my S-12s cycle on the cheaper wal-mart remingtion upland bird loads (i want to say 1,100 fps) my factory camo will actually cycle it on the #1 setting

[kmoore 3]

Not exactly what you asked for, but the load that I've had the most problems with is Winchesters Wally world bulk packed birdshot. I've got a post about a year old showing how , in the heat, the crimp came loose. Had loose birdshot all down in the mags, in the box, and everywhere. Some of the shells leaked completely empty. It wasn't even the hottest day this area sees (mid 90's?). I put the unshot stuff in a cooler to get thru the day. I avoid the stuff now.

 

My guns reliable with a lot of ammo, but my current favorite is Federal bulk packed stuff.

 

My shotty doesn't like the reduced recoil slugs too much either. I haven't tinkered much with them, I'll try to make them work as they are a pleasure to shoot.

[cpileri 0]

Thanks again, All!

For the S&B OOBuckshot users:

were you using the 3-inch, 15 pellet load;

the 2.75-in, 12 pellet load; or

the 2.75-in, 9 pellet load?

 

Thanks again.

C-

[Tetraptous 0]

I haven't had any problems with my defensive load of choice - Fiocci Low-Recoil 00-buck. I had two FTEs when I accidently left the gas tube on setting one after I had been shooting slugs, but it cycles fine on setting two. Never had any issues with any kind of slug. I've yet to try shooting target loads out of it, but I expect no problems when I do. Really, top notch reliability IME.

[G O B 3,516]

I cannot understand why anyone would buy a 12ga. and then use "light" or "reduced" loads. That said I have had 100% reliability out of my S12 on setting one with all ammo that I have tryed. The only hiccup that I ever had was one mag that would fall out after the first shot, and that was easily taken care of by "file to make most perfect fit" as the instructions with the mag said.

 

For HD I recommend full power loads of shot from #4 through #1 buck as the best compromise on overpenetration, and also for the largest wound channel/most effective stopping power.

 

 

G O B

[kmoore 3]

-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Jul 4 2006, 08:42 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I cannot understand why anyone would buy a 12ga. and then use "light" or "reduced" loads. That said I have had 100% reliability out of my S12 on setting one with all ammo that I have tryed. The only hiccup that I ever had was one mag that would fall out after the first shot, and that was easily taken care of by "file to make most perfect fit" as the instructions with the mag said.

 

For HD I recommend full power loads of shot from #4 through #1 buck as the best compromise on overpenetration, and also for the largest wound channel/most effective stopping power.

 

 

G O B

I agree that the full power smaller buck is an excellent choice.

 

But surely you understand the allure of being able to double tap reduced recoil 00 buck. 18 balls of fury sent .15 seconds apart and immediately ready to deal more .....

 

I think it's a legitimate choice.

[IndyArms 10,186]

But surely you understand the allure of being able to double tap reduced recoil 00 buck. 18 balls of fury sent .15 seconds apart and immediately ready to deal more .....

 

Sounds like you little girls need to "go to da chym and lift iyon" and build up them hands and forearms...

 

Wouldnt want some little "pussy-willows" with too tough a shotgun in their hands, gettin hurt by any bad guys...

 

Maybe yall ought to go with a .410??? then you dont need to worry so much about it being too much to handle??

 

 

 

LOL ok... sarcasm done... I couldnt resist! LOL

 

 

[Ruffian72 548]

Just came from range with kids. Had 100rd Walmart Winchester and same in Federal bird/clay laods. Federal no problems (tighter ends). Winchester about 1 in 4 or five catch/stove pipe. Look at end. (star/loose end). Also had 50rds Remington and 50rds Estate. Both also had tight ends, no malfunctions. All 4 brands 23/4 7.5 or 8 shot. Before shooting these, shot 50rds Wolf 23/4 00buck. Smooth Was using 8rd mags in a Tromix conversion. Have been testing how many rds before dirty weapon caused malfunction. Shot about 700rds, no fouling misfunctions yet. We wil shoot another 250rds this evening. Also have fired 20rds Federal 3 Sabot slugs and 25rds 3 00Buck. Except for twice the kick, no malfunctions.

[ironhead7544 35]

The tactical loads are designed for fighting and the full power are for hunting. The lighter recoil loads allow engaging multiple targets a lot faster with improved shot hits due to the tighter patters. The Federal Tactical loads pattern about 12 inches at 25 yards against 20 to 24 inches with run of the mill full power buckshot loads in my guns. I doubt that a bad guy hit with the tac load could tell the difference between that and the full power load.

[Tetraptous 0]

The tactical loads are designed for fighting and the full power are for hunting. The lighter recoil loads allow engaging multiple targets a lot faster with improved shot hits due to the tighter patters. The Federal Tactical loads pattern about 12 inches at 25 yards against 20 to 24 inches with run of the mill full power buckshot loads in my guns. I doubt that a bad guy hit with the tac load could tell the difference between that and the full power load.

 

Exactly, my reason for low recoil 00 is for close-quarters defense of my home, and to provide something the wife can shoot comfortably. Overpenetration is a secondary concern - I'd be using #4 if that were my biggest issue. It feeds reliably, patterns well, and will kill someone at just as dead at 30 ft as full power #4. Given that there aren't any halls or rooms in my home with dimensions great than 30 ft, performance at range is unimportant.

[cscharlie 107]

My experience has been that the S-12 loves the win super-x slugs. No problems cycling the wally world low power stuff now. I opened the ports up due to short cycling and afterwards noticed that I was it was loosing gas preasure through the hole that the front bead threaded into, as I went to a Russian front site that clamps to the barrel and this hole was open. After using an allen head screw with loctite to seal up that hole it worked great.

 

Previously I was flamed for asking if any one knew how to reload steel hull ammo, like the stuff would always be plentiful. I did buy some and tried using it as a solution to the top round deformation problem. I was never able to get it to feed reliably, especialy in the Russian 8 round mags.

 

This might be getting a little off topic, but I remember a poster from long ago who said that he is a LEO, and that he solved the top round deformation problem by changing the angle on the bottom of the bolt carrier by removing enough material to allow a full mag to be locked in on a closed bolt without the top round being pressed against the carrier. I was concerened that this mod would weaken the carrier enough to cause a falure. I wonder if a custom made Titanium carrier with this mod would be possable? Would be nice if our"AK" shoties could use any ammo in a crisis/survival situation without need to be concerend with top round deformation. A carrier like that would be worth some $ to me.

[cpileri 0]

Ruffian, Thx for brand/Load/length!

 

cscharlie, did you ever gat anywhere with reloading the steel hulls?

 

I tried pulling the black plastic cap and dumping out the BBBshot, thinking I would then replace the cap- all without deforming the steel hull. Well, the hull is fine but that plastic cap is in there really snugly. Totally destroyed it getting it out. Haven't gotten any further than that to date. You?

 

 

kmoore, actually giving info on what loads absolutely didn't work is fine.

 

Keep the info flowing! Happy 4th.

 

C-

[KTR03 0]

I've been using SandB 2.75 inch 12 pellet loads for practice and Hornady TAP for defense/offense. My decision was based on the following criteria: Reliability in the gun. Power. Pattern. I want a tight pattern, one inch per yard at most. This is what I have tried:

 

Federal LE 00 Buckshot with new true flight wadding (I think thats what its called). 9 pellets. The box did not say "Low recoil", but it was definately very soft on the recoil. The pattern at 10 yards was basically a double fist size hole in the paper.

 

Hornady TAP: 9 Pellet 00 buck shot.This stuff kicked much harder then the Federal LE. Internet sources say it is very hot. The box says 1600 fps. I believe it. The pattern was about the size of the black area of the target, but each round had one flyer pellet that was well outside of the rest.

 

S&B: 00 buck, 12 pellets. Comes in the cool transperent tupperware shell. shot pattern bigger then the black area (and twice as big as the Federal LE), but 12 pellets is alot... Kicked more then the Federal and less then the Hornady

 

Remington Hi base: 4 Shot. Kicked hard and put all the pellets into about a 5 inch circle. This would be a very nasty wound to treat. Might be a good limited penetration round. I'd like to see how wide it got (and how fast) say if it was fired down a hall way.

 

Federal Standard Buckshot: 9 pellets. Kicked harder then the Federal LE and patterned about twice as big.

 

Winchester 9 pellet load: about the same as the federal standard.

 

Winchester 3 inch 15 pellet load: Nasty recoil. Wide shot pattern. Pass.

 

I talked to Federal. The Estates 8 ball is no more... The only Hivel 00buck they have is the copper plated hunting load called VitalShock. It features the true flight wad.

 

I don't quite see the point of the reduced recoil buckshot. I understand that the recoil is less, but that comes at an unacceptably high price, ie reduced penetration. Low recoil buck shot will not penetrate a car door, or other intermediate barricades. I am a much more concerned with the ability of my shot payload to hit the target I am deliberately shooting at the the theoretical risk of a buck shot pellet over penetrating and striking an innocent bystander. I'm also a pretty big guy and can handle the kick of a full house 9 pellet load.

 

Now I need to figure out slugs. Any suggestions? I'm shooting a win modified choke tube.

[Tetraptous 0]

Now I need to figure out slugs. Any suggestions? I'm shooting a win modified choke tube.

 

 

I've never tried a slug that wouldn't cycle well. Federal PowerShok 2.75" and 3" magnum loads, 2.75 & 3" Winchester Super-X, Winchester Ranger Low Recoil Slugs, Remmy BuckHammers, and more I can't remember offhand. Next week I'm going to try some of the Wolf 2.75" slugs, they're currently the cheapest I could find - I expect they will work pretty well, too. Only thing I wouldn't be pretty sure would work are rubber slugs - I haven't ever tried them.

[cpileri 0]

KTR03-

great post, thanks! Just so I understand you, did all of the loads you listed cycle and feed reliably? It sounds like reliability was your first criteria, and you made no further mention of it in the descriptions of each load. But i don't want to assume anything.

 

Also, with the Hornady TAP they supposedly make a 'semi-auto' load and a 'pump' load with the pump load being considerably lighter power than the semi. At least the original TAP was like that, I dont know about the newer TAP-FPD. Did you use original TAP and if so, again I am assuming you tried the semi version or you probably wouldn't have mentioned the kick!

 

I tried the original TAP, in the blue hull which I think is pump, and it ALMOST cycled: the first round slid in when bolt was released, fired and didn't quite get the bolt back far enough so the fired shell got stuck in stovepipe fashion during ejection- as if the shell had just barely backed out of the chamber and was headed out the side when the foward moving bolt caught it and pinned it against the edge of the chamber.

 

Unfortunately, didnt get to try any semi-auto TAP.

 

Most of the low-recoil and 2.75" length loads we tried that day had a similar fate.

 

The barnaul steel hull buckshot is listed as abt 1&1/4 ounces of shot @ 1050 fps- not a very hot load by any means, and they feed/cycle/eject perfectly. At least in the 3 saiga 12's we were testing that day.

 

I see S&B OOB, 12 pellet load 2.75" is worth trying. I wonder if more 2.75" heavy buckshot and 'field short magnum'-type loads are all going to be OK. Also wondering about 3" shells which are star-crimped vs roll-crimped vs slugs??/

 

Also, now brainstorming, I wonder if the Saiga-12 can be 'throated and polished' similar to what folks did with 1911's or the kel-tec 'fluff and buff'.

 

C-

[clange 0]

Yesterday I shot some S&B 00 12 pellet and remington reduced recoil 00 8 pellet IIRC. Everything fired and cycled. The S&B was quite a bit hotter than than the reduced recoil obviously, but not too much to handle. Another good thing about the S&B is its actually closer to 3in, so the problem of having a 2 3/4in shell catch on the part above the barrel is no longer a concern.

 

If the reduced recoil loads prove to be reliable, they seem like they'd be a good choice for in the house work. They had a lot less recoil, a lot less smoke, less noise, etc. I'll probably eventually load a few of them at the top of the mag then S&B for the rest.

Edited July 5, 2006 by clange

[TheGunHustler 3]

if the plastic ca is too badly deformed try cutting a peice of card board a little bigger than the shell and stuffing that in there. That is the way they did it when the steel hulls first came out

 

 

Also, now brainstorming, I wonder if the Saiga-12 can be 'throated and polished' similar to what folks did with 1911's or the kel-tec 'fluff and buff'.

 

 

 

i have a remington 870 that i tood a brake cyl hone and a drill with lots of oil and honed the fuck out of it then i pollished it with a dremmal tool with the cloth wheel and flitz metal polish. p/s i had to hone b/c the chamber was tooo tight and shells would get stuck on ejecting when the chamber heated up

 

Ruffian, Thx for brand/Load/length!

 

cscharlie, did you ever gat anywhere with reloading the steel hulls?

 

I tried pulling the black plastic cap and dumping out the BBBshot, thinking I would then replace the cap- all without deforming the steel hull. Well, the hull is fine but that plastic cap is in there really snugly. Totally destroyed it getting it out. Haven't gotten any further than that to date. You?

 

 

kmoore, actually giving info on what loads absolutely didn't work is fine.

 

Keep the info flowing! Happy 4th.

 

C-

[KTR03 0]

Reliability on all shells was perfect. In fact reliability with the gun has been perfect, although I haven't shot birdshot or such through it. I have this gun as a serious social tool. I don't shoot competetion and don't plan on using birshot for anything. THis is not a slap at those who do, its just not my cup of tea. The Hornady TAP-FPD was the red hulled shell. The box stated 1600 FPS. I just got 65 more rounds of it so I have 3 8 rounders full and a bunch in reserve. I'd have like to have tried the Estate 8 Ball, but Federal said most people found that it kicked too hard and it didn't sell well. The trend towards diet shot gun shells (dubbed "tactical") continues.

 

I need to go back out to the range and figure out exactly what the round does at 3, 7, 10, 15, 25 and 40 yards. That will give me a solid understanding of what this shotgun is going to do. I've opted for the Saiga over my Vang Comp 1100 because of the magazines, so I need to figure out the trade off.

[kmoore 3]

Reliability on all shells was perfect. In fact reliability with the gun has been perfect, although I haven't shot birdshot or such through it. I have this gun as a serious social tool. I don't shoot competetion and don't plan on using birshot for anything. THis is not a slap at those who do, its just not my cup of tea. The Hornady TAP-FPD was the red hulled shell. The box stated 1600 FPS. I just got 65 more rounds of it so I have 3 8 rounders full and a bunch in reserve. I'd have like to have tried the Estate 8 Ball, but Federal said most people found that it kicked too hard and it didn't sell well. The trend towards diet shot gun shells (dubbed "tactical") continues.

 

I need to go back out to the range and figure out exactly what the round does at 3, 7, 10, 15, 25 and 40 yards. That will give me a solid understanding of what this shotgun is going to do. I've opted for the Saiga over my Vang Comp 1100 because of the magazines, so I need to figure out the trade off.

 

KTR03, Hope you'll start a new thread when you get your results back. I think it'd be interesting to compare what it would do against a Vang Comp'd gun. Saiga's are tightly choked, but it'll be hard to compete with your 1100?

[Pointer 21]

Only ammo i have fired is Wolf 00Buck and slugs in 2 3/4",over 300 rds and no problemos.My FFL buddy got me 500rds at cost about a year and a half ago for real cheap.

[scoutjoe 276]

Only ammo i have fired is Wolf 00Buck and slugs in 2 3/4",over 300 rds and no problemos.My FFL buddy got me 500rds at cost about a year and a half ago for real cheap.

 

500 rounds in a year and a half? come on its based of the AK action....now 500 rounds in a month is more to its liking

[Pointer 21]

Only ammo i have fired is Wolf 00Buck and slugs in 2 3/4",over 300 rds and no problemos.My FFL buddy got me 500rds at cost about a year and a half ago for real cheap.

 

500 rounds in a year and a half? come on its based of the AK action....now 500 rounds in a month is more to its liking

 

Ok,maybe im laging with the 12,but the 7.62,308 and the .223 Saigas eat a whole lot more

[random sylvester 0]

Ive got a russian assembled saiga and I cant get it to jam , I have put about a thousand odd rounds through it,its never been off setting one ,never cleaned it,ive used 2 1/2 #4shot rio ,2 3/4 #4 rio,3" 00 buck remington (the best so far for cycling) ,2 3/4 00 buck rio ,

 

the only one I dont like is the Winchester 2 3/4 00 buck because the rim is too small and its hard to load in the mag

 

[cpileri 0]

Curious: if you can't get it to jam, what makes the Rem 3" 00B the best for cycling?

 

Also, if yours will cycle the Aquila mini-shells, then I'm telling my firends to take theirs back for a refund! (Joke. But what I mean is that i bet it'll jam with those!)

C-

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ive got a russian assembled saiga and I cant get it to jam , I have put about a thousand odd rounds through it,its never been off setting one ,never cleaned it,ive used 2 1/2 #4shot rio ,2 3/4 #4 rio,3" 00 buck remington (the best so far for cycling) ,2 3/4 00 buck rio ,

 

the only one I dont like is the Winchester 2 3/4 00 buck because the rim is too small and its hard to load in the mag

 

[Bvamp 604]

well, I know that there are many new people in the forum, here, so I thought that I would point you all to a bit of an extreme experiment that I did last year and posted here. scroll down the thread below for the picture I included of a couple of the shells Im talking about.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=3522

 

keep in mind the shells were mixed types, as I stated, and it was about 2F degrees or so out, literally, and the gun and shells were left out on the tailgate of the truck for the hour and a half it took me to snowblow the driveway before I shot them, effectively freezing them. read the post I put up. it still amazes me when I think about it. NO OTHER SHOTGUN would have passed that test, I dont think.

 

Ive put thousands and thousands of rounds down my s-12 so far, and really, the only issue I have with it jamming on light loads now is because there is a little play in my gas piston, which I need to have welded solid. I have full confidence this will fix it, as I sweat some pipe solder into the threads just to see if it WAS my problem, and lo and behold, it bump fired 6 rounds of the crappiest cheapest shells there are.

 

my one real piece of solid advice I can give you guys is to make sure you DONT fire the gun with high powder loads on the light gas setting. I think that is what loosened my piston up in the first place, and even with the play in the part, it only now has trouble on the lightest loads, and only occasionally. but like I said, its just a matter of going to my machinst friends and having it fixed. I still shoot it at will, mind you.

 

I guess what im saying is that if you have problems with stovepipes, check for gas piston slop on the bolt carrier.