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20 Round magazines=Very bad idea!!!!!


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I know I'm new here, and this is my second post, but I felt it is important that I say this. I think that there may be a major problem with making a 20 round mag for this rifle. I read through the discussion on the first page, and I'm not sure if anyone has brought this up before. If they have (and there was a resolution) I apologize.

 

Ok..here is the possible problem. FBMG (or anybody) can make a 20 rd mag to fit a Saiga 308. This is now perfectly legal. Anyone can play the parts count game, and make their Saiga fit the definition of a domestically produced rifle, thereby bypassing the 922r restrictions on imported rifles, and by doing so, legally use the 20 rd mag in their now "domestically produced" Saiga 308. The problem is this...

 

If these mags see the light of day, past prototype (IE SOT-esque experimentation), in a way that they are available to be purchased by the open market in the US, the mere existence of them could very well cause the Saiga 308 in it's current configuration to be INELIGIBLE FOR IMPORTATION.

 

Refer back to the LCMM discussion/ATF ruling from 1998. In that, they basically say that a kalashnikov style rifle (IE one of the ones banned in 1989, or any other "SAW"-Semi-Automatic-Assault Weapon (their words, not mine), even after being reconfigured so that the only remaining non-sporting feature remaining is a "Large Capacity military magazine", is still ineligible for importation. Which means our saigas, which in essence are exactly that, a kalashnikov with no non-sporting features (such as a high capacity magazine, bayo lug, flash hider, etc), will be ineligible for importation in their current configuration, as soon as a large capacity (IE over 10 rds) magazine is publicly available for them. In fact, the only rifle tested that avoided the BATF's criteria, as stated by them, was the VEPR 308, expressly because it only had an 8 round mag, and there was no availability (or design for) a higher capacity magazine.

 

 

The long and the short of it is, the ATF has already presupposed the ineligibility of the saiga (once the mag is available), by a ruling from 1998! I can't state this enough. The saiga will be automatically illegal to import in its current configuration, once that magazine is available. There is no delay in this folks. The only thing allowing its importation now is the low magazine capacity, and no provision for a larger mag.

 

Effectively, once those mags hit the market, the only way a saiga can be imported is the same as any other non 922r compliant, expressly banned rifle... it has to come in as a parts kit, and (as of the barrel ban), be assembled with less than the limiting number of foreign made parts, using a US made fcg, furniture, gas piston, and barrel, etc...

 

This is *not* a good idea. If I were the importer, I would be begging the mag manufacturer not to do this. I am not, but I thought someone should say something. It reminds me of that retarded 7.62x39 bolt-action pistol they made, unintentionally causing the universal ban on steel core 7.62x39.

 

Now I'm no lawyer, so the finer points of legality are probably beyond me. But I'm thinking that my logic on this one is pretty solid...

Edited by CTCStrela
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Well dude, the importer is actually rooting for us because they feel it will help sales. The ATF does not really seem to care anymore because the magazine ban is over and the existance of a US made mag that holds 20rds has nothing to do with the Importability of the gun. The assault weapons ban is gone, but it was in full swing in 1998. Now it is a moot point.

 

Either way, this is happening. If you had $58,000 (enough to cover the pre-orders and our expenses) you could make this all stop and go away. If not.....

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Well dude, the importer is actually rooting for us because they feel it will help sales. The ATF does not really seem to care anymore because the magazine ban is over and the existance of a US made mag that holds 20rds has nothing to do with the Importability of the gun. The assault weapons ban is gone, but it was in full swing in 1998. Now it is a moot point.

 

Either way, this is happening. If you had $58,000 (enough to cover the pre-orders and our expenses) you could make this all stop and go away. If not.....

 

Ok, but the point is, the ATF does care. This mag has everything to do with the importability of the rifle.

The magazine ban (part of the 1994 ban) doesn't have anything to do with GCA 922r, or the 1989 imported AW ban. These mags, once on the market, automatically will cause the Saiga 308 to be a non-sporting rifle/unimportable, as per the 1998 ruling (which is unrelated to the 94 aw/magazine ban that sunsetted). I'll only argue this point, and then I'll shut up. Have you read the 1998 ruling/1989 AW ban? Have you sent in a letter requesting a position from the ATF on what repurcussions this magazine will have on the Izmash-produced rifles? It's free, you know?

 

At any rate, this isn't a troll. I'm just questioning the wisdom of the endevour..and I could be wrong.

Edited by CTCStrela
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Well dude, the importer is actually rooting for us because they feel it will help sales. The ATF does not really seem to care anymore because the magazine ban is over and the existance of a US made mag that holds 20rds has nothing to do with the Importability of the gun. The assault weapons ban is gone, but it was in full swing in 1998. Now it is a moot point.

 

Either way, this is happening. If you had $58,000 (enough to cover the pre-orders and our expenses) you could make this all stop and go away. If not.....

 

Ok, but the point is, the ATF does care. This mag has everything to do with the importability of the rifle.

The magazine ban (part of the 1994 ban) doesn't have anything to do with GCA 922r, or the 1989 imported AW ban. These mags, once on the market, automatically will cause the Saiga 308 to be a non-sporting rifle/unimportable, as per the 1998 ruling (which is unrelated to the 94 aw/magazine ban that sunsetted). I'll only argue this point, and then I'll shut up. Have you read the 1998 ruling/1989 AW ban? Have you sent in a letter requesting a position from the ATF on what repurcussions this magazine will have on the Izmash-produced rifles? It's free, you know?

 

At any rate, this isn't a troll. I'm just questioning the wisdom of the endevour..and I could be wrong.

 

I'm not sure, but the other Saiga's can be easily converted to take high-cap mags and the ATF doesn't seem to have a problem with them. It's the parts count issue that seems to be confusing as to the legality of it all. Also, the part your referring to, if I remember right, has to do with imported high-cap mag and I think. I'll reread it again, it's been awhile. Good idea to ask anyway. Never know how the alphabet police are going to interpret there own rules.

 

Grim

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I'm not sure, but the other Saiga's can be easily converted to take high-cap mags and the ATF doesn't seem to have a problem with them. It's the parts count issue that seems to be confusing as to the legality of it all. Also, the part your referring to, if I remember right, has to do with imported high-cap mag and I think. I'll reread it again, it's been awhile. Good idea to ask anyway. Never know how the alphabet police are going to interpret there own rules.

 

Grim

 

Yup, the crux of it is that they can be *converted* to take high cap mags. They don't come into the US ready made to take them. You have to convert the rifle. By making a 20rd mag to lock in and function in the Saiga 308, they inadvertantly make the rifle design itself ineligible to be imported, unless the importer becomes a manufacturer, and brings them in as parts kits, meets the 922r criteria for US parts, and uses an US barrel. Seriously stupid law "gotcha", but that (if it is actually true) doesn't make it invalid.

Edited by CTCStrela
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Yup, the crux of it is that they can be *converted* to take high cap mags. They don't come into the US ready made to take them. You have to convert the rifle. By making a 20rd mag to lock in and function in the Saiga 308, they inadvertantly make the rifle design itself ineligible to be imported, unless the importer becomes a manufacturer, and brings them in as parts kits, meets the 922r criteria for US parts, and uses an US barrel. Seriously stupid law "gotcha", but that (if it is actually true) doesn't make it invalid.

 

The 922r parts law does not specify which parts have to be US made or not, just how many. The BATF seems to consider removing a magazine and replacing it with another magazine the same as dis/reassembling the rifle though so adding the 20rd magazine might require you to have the proper parts count. If they are imported with 10rd mags they are legal as long as you don't get a 20rd magazine. Once you do, then you've disassembled the 10rd version and reassembled a 20rd version. Get rid of the 10rd magazine and buy a US made gas piston and you should be good to go. Of course I haven't asked them specifically yet.

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The 922r parts law does not specify which parts have to be US made or not, just how many. The BATF seems to consider removing a magazine and replacing it with another magazine the same as dis/reassembling the rifle though so adding the 20rd magazine might require you to have the proper parts count. If they are imported with 10rd mags they are legal as long as you don't get a 20rd magazine. Once you do, then you've disassembled the 10rd version and reassembled a 20rd version. Get rid of the 10rd magazine and buy a US made gas piston and you should be good to go. Of course I haven't asked them specifically yet.

 

922r specifies a maximum number of foriegn made parts in a rifle allowed.

 

On the smaller saiga's IE the 7.62x39, the rifle has to be modified to accept a high capacity magazine (IE the milling/feed ramp). It is not imported in a configuration that would allow it to accept a high capacity magazine. That is something the owner/a gunsmith can (or at least as far as I know) can do. Then you have to make it a domestic rifle (parts swapping) to legally own it in that configuration. The barrel problem stems from ATF's newest ruling, which states that if a rifle is banned as non-sporting, the permissible parts for importation do not include the barrel. So no more parts kits with barrels for all of the yugo's, amd-65's, etc to be imported.

 

The Saiga 308 is a different dilemma altogether.

 

When the 20rd saiga 308 mags are on the market, the rifle will require no modification to accept them, thereby being a violation of 922r, in its imported configuration. In other words, not legal to import. Any current owner should be able to swap parts and then legally own a saiga 308 that can accept these new magazines. It's a little more in depth than just "gas piston" though. 10 or more foreign parts is a 922r violation. So here we go. A saiga in factory imported configuration, has 13 foreign parts (at least as far as the 922r parts count is concerned), with no magazine included (for sake of argument re: 20 rd mag)

 

These include: Reciever; barrel; trunion; bolt; bolt carrier; trigger housing; trigger; hammer; sear (yes, the saiga assembly has a sear); disconnector, buttstock; forarm; and gas piston. To make a Saiga 308 922r compliant you would have to replace 3 or more of these parts (4 to be safe). Basically a fcg swap (gets rid of 4 parts/replaces with 3 us made) and then a furniture swap. Of course, you'd have to move the trigger housing and what not else. Or, whatever, as long as you have less than 10 total *counted* foriegn parts in the gun when you are done.

 

 

But that's not the issue I'm bringing up.

 

The issue is that the importer will have to convert each and every rifle they import to 922r compliance prior to sale (after these mags hit the market), or they can not legally import/sell them, once they are capable of accepting a high capacity magazine without modification required on the weapon. That means importing saiga parts kits (minus the barrels), and assembling them here, with less foreign parts than the maximum specified by law.

That's the problem with this new high cap mag.

 

At least that's my take on it.

Edited by CTCStrela
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Well there are now 30rd 7.62X39 and 5.56 mags out there that fit an unconverted Saiga. I guess we are just screwed all the way around now. The 10rd 12ga mags are sure to throw the IZ-108/9 into the DD catagory as well.

 

You guys had better call me and buy them while you can! I will be running an end of an Era sale all next month.

 

Sorry, we just are not worried about it, and the Saigas are a MAJOR part of our business. But like I said, you can make it all go away very easily.

Edited by PvtPyle
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Reading the supplied letter doesn't convince me that making a high-cap US made magazine for an imported rifle will violate anything there. It just reaffirms my thoughts that you might have to add one or two more US pieces to make it considered an US assembled rifle. You may be reading it differantly but I just don't see it. Write a letter to the BATF and ask? Post it if I'm wrong but I'm not worried about it anymore.

 

Grim

Edited by Grim
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I'll state at the outset that I know nothing of the legalities of importing foreign semi autos like the Saiga.

 

FBMG has taken the initiative to meet the needs of this group of enthusiasts and I appreciate their efforts. Looking forward to my mags.

 

Bottom line, if there is a legal problem with these mags, there shouldn't be. ATF should change their regs. Banning FBMGs' 20 rounders is illogical. I know, I know, logic has little to do with the bureaucracy. Don

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You are not messing up my business. The ATF can not stop me from making a magazine. They are in no way regulated anymore by any federal laws. And based on the orders we have received, no body else seems to be worried about it either.

 

I never said I had a ruling from them, I did not ask for one.

 

And I was not being sarcastic about making this all go away. For the right price, I will stop. But every day you wait that price goes up. Everyone has their price, mine is about 60K today. But you can bet that someone will step up and take my place because the demand is there.

 

If you are so worried about it, you write in and ask them. By the time you get a letter back the mags will have been delivered to everyone how has placed and order so far.

 

That said, you still are mixing a few things up. First and foremost is that making these mags does not affect their importability because they are still the same gun. They do not have 20rd mags, so importing them is not possible. We are also not assembling an un-importable weapons from imported parts, they are a US made magazine. And even if they did make a 20rd mag, the gun would still be importable, but not the magazine because of the Arms Export Control Act. The ATf has given the initial nod to bringing in the 8rd mags and have put some restrictions in place, like the number of US made parts in a gun to allow the lawful use of the 8rd mags.

 

So show me exactly, EXACTLY where the ruling you quote says anythign about US made mags or how the mag would affect the importability of the weapons. Maybe I am a rube off the street, because I did not see it.

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:smoke: Ok,now for my 2 cents worth-1 WHERE did all you newbies suddenly come out of the woodwork and start stirring the pot on this, are you considering buying some mags but are scared about the ATF,bent you found out about the group buy too late,etc??? Do you have some other 'agenda' and are feeling us out??????- :unsure:

I am sure FBMG has seriously considered the significant $$ to do this,has researched the laws,etc regarding the parts count,etc,and ,like any true free enterprising individual/co. has decided to fill need requested by the shooting enthusiasts that we are.

:eek: As for the ATF- I have copies of meetings,reports,etc that show how badly the ATF is when enforcing its own regs. There are innacuracies,ommissions,out of the blue changes on the status of weapons,etc. It is unfortunate that that ill run govt institution has as much power as it does. There is a need for some regulating but there is no guarantee that what you do today AS PER ATF regs-will NOT be wrong or illegal in 48 hrs.

In the end it is 'Caveat Emptor ' all the way-adds some spice to life! :super:

 

BTW- I will be getting at least 1 of these for my rifle.

Carry on Pyle!!!! I am pretty sure someone is going to censure me or flame me for my opening remark-oh well,still have my 1st Amendment!!

 

AND-Welcome to the forum newbies!! :lolol::haha:

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I have not researched this question, but the contention being made does not seem reasonable to me. The Saiga .308 is imported with an eight round mag and that is legal. It is now legal to make mags holding more than ten rounds and sell them to civilians. So the FBMG project is legal. Therefore I think the question is whether it will be a violation to USE a legal mag in a legally imported, unmodified rifle. If this is a problem, please cite a specific source.

 

Monomonk

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You are not messing up my business. The ATF can not stop me from making a magazine. They are in no way regulated anymore by any federal laws. And based on the orders we have received, no body else seems to be worried about it either.

 

I never said I had a ruling from them, I did not ask for one.

 

And I was not being sarcastic about making this all go away. For the right price, I will stop. But every day you wait that price goes up. Everyone has their price, mine is about 60K today. But you can bet that someone will step up and take my place because the demand is there.

 

If you are so worried about it, you write in and ask them. By the time you get a letter back the mags will have been delivered to everyone how has placed and order so far.

 

That said, you still are mixing a few things up. First and foremost is that making these mags does not affect their importability because they are still the same gun. They do not have 20rd mags, so importing them is not possible. We are also not assembling an un-importable weapons from imported parts, they are a US made magazine. And even if they did make a 20rd mag, the gun would still be importable, but not the magazine because of the Arms Export Control Act. The ATf has given the initial nod to bringing in the 8rd mags and have put some restrictions in place, like the number of US made parts in a gun to allow the lawful use of the 8rd mags.

 

So show me exactly, EXACTLY where the ruling you quote says anythign about US made mags or how the mag would affect the importability of the weapons. Maybe I am a rube off the street, because I did not see it.

 

 

Pyle, do you work for Remington, Bushmaster, or Ruger?

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This from your own words:

"Keep in mind that this interpretation was written during a period of time when the AWB was in effect "

 

Not really wanting to get into this debate but...

 

Another thing to remember is the BATF has not put the screws to anyone that I know of for a 922r violation, not to say it hasn't happened at all but who have you heard of that got into trouble unless they were already in trouble for something else?

This being the case and the fact that I know Pyle talked to the ATF in person at the Shot Show tells me that there's no way in hell they are going to ban the S-.308 just because of a domestic 20 rd mag, no more than they will ban the S-12 when the 10 rdrs come out. If they were worried about that then they would not have approved the Saigas for reimportation knowing full well that the S-12 factory 8 rdrs are available and the domestic tens were in production already.

 

Now keep in mind that this is true for now. Who knows what's going to happen once Hillary gets back in the White House...

my .02

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Pyle, do you work for Remington, Bushmaster, or Ruger?

 

WTF? Where did you get that from?

 

 

As for the importability of rifles that take a high cap mag, they have been doing it since the AW ban sunset up until they started enforcing the bbl ban. And bow it looks like they are going to waffle on that and let bbls back in for dual use and historic pieces.

 

If you are such good friends with the former legal council for RSR, ask him about it. It was RSR that sold me the new US made hicap magazines for the unconverted 223 and 762 Siagas..... I guess they know what they are doing.

 

The bottom line here is this. We have been shown nothing that says we will get into a jam or negatively affect the import of the Saigas. When speaking with the ATF imports and tech branch at the shot show about this and other major Saiga issues, they don't care, or at least they dont seem to. This project is moving forward and the onloy way to stop it is to pony up $62,000 (it was a busy night, thanks for driving traffic!).

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Pyle, do you work for Remington, Bushmaster, or Ruger?

 

WTF? Where did you get that from?

 

 

As for the importability of rifles that take a high cap mag, they have been doing it since the AW ban sunset up until they started enforcing the bbl ban. And bow it looks like they are going to waffle on that and let bbls back in for dual use and historic pieces.

 

If you are such good friends with the former legal council for RSR, ask him about it. It was RSR that sold me the new US made hicap magazines for the unconverted 223 and 762 Siagas..... I guess they know what they are doing.

 

The bottom line here is this. We have been shown nothing that says we will get into a jam or negatively affect the import of the Saigas. When speaking with the ATF imports and tech branch at the shot show about this and other major Saiga issues, they don't care, or at least they dont seem to. This project is moving forward and the onloy way to stop it is to pony up $62,000 (it was a busy night, thanks for driving traffic!).

 

 

In that case, cool man! There is nothing that can be done, as far as stopping the production (not that I wanted to, mind you, but I thought someone should ask the question). So I guess its moot.

 

Guess I'll be buying another saiga this weekend at the show.

 

So where do I order a mag from?

Edited by CTCStrela
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The Saiga .308 that has been legally imported has the capability, without modifying the rifle, of accepting a hi-cap mag. This was true even when there was no such mag in existence. A rifle's capability of accepting or using a hi-cap mag is not dependent on whether anyone has produced those mags. Producing a hi-cap mag that can be used with the Saiga .308 does not change the rifle. The conventional SKS comes to mind as a foreign made rifle that cannot be used with detachable hi-cap mags without modifying the rifle (by removing the built-in mag). The Saiga .308 is in a different category since it was designed to use detachable mags and these can in principle hold one round or forty rounds or more in drum configuration.

 

Monomonk

Edited by monomonk
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CTCStrela's point has merit, and I've thought about his point myself. The appearance of high capacity magazines for the S-308 could call the importability of S-308's into question. However, there are three important counter arguments . . .

 

First, the importer is not importing these mags, they're aftermarket. I know this strictly doesn't change the "availability" issue, but the importer cannot be responsible for what every other person in the country does. IMHO if a Saiga owner purchases some 20-rounder, then they would be responsible for making sure their rifle is 922® compliant.

 

Second read the 1998 report carefully, much of the rational for the 1998 import restrictions was the existence of the 1994 Crime Bill with its associated restrictions of high capacity magazines. Since this has now sunset, this would seem to partially undercut the legal basis for the restricting rifles capable of using high capacity mags. Granted there has been no official change in ATF policy, but I suspect one may be coming.

 

Finally there is some precedent already set, since at least some folks claim to have "factory 30-round mags" for 7.62x39mm Saigas. This did not appear to change the importability of these rifles.

 

I find that it is very difficult to figure out what is importable and what is not. While we can use previous ATF determinations as guidelines, they are not necessarily rational or consistent. (For example, I recently posted a letter from ATF saying that adding a thumbhole stock to a Saiga made it "unimportable", only to find several weeks later that they are now being imported that way.) The only way to know for sure is to ask ATF . . .

 

Larry

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What this comes down to is that the ATF may revisit the importation of Saiga rifles at some point in the future, not the present. It may never revisit it for all any of us know. They could do this with or without the magazine being available. The magazine availability may play a role in future decisions, it may not. The point, as always, is get them while you still can.

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Personally, all that I worry about is if my guns are legal. Yes, they are. So, no worries :D

 

I'm looking forward to receiving my mags and once again I thank the FBMG boys for developing and marketing them. Good old American capitalism at work :D

 

Sitting around and wringing our hands about what the BATFE folks are going to do next is a waste of time IMHO. After all, every infringement of our right to keep and bear is patently unconsititutional - why don't we worry about THAT?

Edited by O.S.O.K.
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One compliance part and the whole BS arguement is blown away. The s-.308 has 14 forign parts. Add a US gaspiston and it is IMPOSSIBLE to assemble a forign weapon that accepts a hi-cap mag, because when you put the mag in the Saiga it BECOMES a US made gun! Put the 8rd, forign mag in and it is a forign gun again!

But it is still incapable of being capable of accepting a hi-cap mag, because when you put said mag IN the S-.308 the forign S-.308 DOES NOT EXIST!

 

P.S. Uncle Batfuck has ruled Saiga shotties to have 13 parts, but I have NEVER seen any letter stating the parts count for Saiga rifles. If they are ruled as 13 instead of the 14 I came up with--then there cannot be any problem! I only get 14 if I count the trunnion as it would be counted in an AK, but Uncle Batfuck does not count them in their ruling on shotties?

Edited by G O B
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(G O B @ Aug 11 2006, 05:05 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->

One compliance part and the whole BS arguement is blown away. The s-.308 has 14 forign parts. Add a US gaspiston and it is IMPOSSIBLE to assemble a forign weapon that accepts a hi-cap mag, because when you put the mag in the Saiga it BECOMES a US made gun! Put the 8rd, forign mag in and it is a forign gun again!

But it is still incapable of being capable of accepting a hi-cap mag, because when you put said mag IN the S-.308 the forign S-.308 DOES NOT EXIST!

 

P.S. Uncle Batfuck has ruled Saiga shotties to have 13 parts, but I have NEVER seen any letter stating the parts count for Saiga rifles. If they are ruled as 13 instead of the 14 I came up with--then there cannot be any problem! I only get 14 if I count the trunnion as it would be counted in an AK, but Uncle Batfuck does not count them in their ruling on shotties?

 

 

Uhm. Bad advice dude. .

 

 

As far as I can tell...

 

A saiga in factory imported configuration, has 12 (possibly 13)foreign parts (at least as far as the 922r parts count is concerned), with no magazine included (for sake of argument re: 20 rd mag)

 

These include: Reciever; barrel; trunion; possibly rear trunnion; bolt; bolt carrier; trigger; hammer; sear (yes, the saiga assembly has a sear); buttstock; forarm; and gas piston. To make a Saiga 308 922r compliant you would have to replace 3 or more of these parts .

 

here is the complete list of parts that the ATF considers.

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings

(2) Barrels

(3) Barrel extensions

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)

(5) Muzzle attachments

(6) Bolts

(7) Bolt carriers

(8) Operating rods

(9) Gas pistons

(10) Trigger housings (11) Triggers

(12) Hammers

(13) Sears

(14) Disconnectors

(15) Butt stocks

(16) Pistol grips

(17) Forearms, hand guards

(18) Magazine bodies

(19) Magazine Followers

(20) Magazine Floor plates

Edited by CTCStrela
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