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20 Round magazines=Very bad idea!!!!!


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right....so what you are saying is that the atf cant touch our guns....right.....

 

right.....??

 

maybe we need to put a tacked thread up stating that you cannot use high caps in any saiga withour proper US parts counts first. the law is pretty clear on this, if you can use the term, and pvtpyle knew this beforehand, which is why his company went ahead with it.

 

this is also why noone seeks to make us mags for the saiga shotguns in excess of ten rounds.

 

so like i said, maybe we should post a notification that you must have proper parts compliance to use any high cap in these guns...

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this is also why noone seeks to make us mags for the saiga shotguns in excess of ten rounds.

There is nothing illegal or potentially illegal, the ten round number is meaningless now that the AWB is gone.

 

I think the number one reason not to make mags in excess of 10rds is because 10rd is huge enough but at least it's a nice neat number. I hate to think of how big a 12rd mag would be. Sure it would be cool to just stand there and shoot, but try maneuvering that thing.

 

Back to the 308 mags, it's for this reason I think choosing 20rd capacity is a good call.

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Hell if your gonna make a hi cap AK mag go ahead and make it hold 30 like the rest of em. :rolleyes:

 

To BRG3's point - the 30 round .308 mag would be a bit unwieldy. I personally would opt for the 20 regardless. -its as long as the standard ak 30 rounder...

Edited by O.S.O.K.
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It is?

Well if that's so I see what you mean. Personally I like the 8 rdr because I will probably be shooting mine from the bench or deer hunting most of the time anyway. I just think for the 16" AK conversions it would be cool to have a 30 rd mag. For the AKs they make 5, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, rd mags, 75 & 100 rd drums. Some people just like to collect mags. I would like to have a few 8s for normal use and a few 20s and 30s just like I do for my AKs. That's prolly just me though...

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so you need to change out parts to use ANY high cap in a saiga anything, and only one or two to use a US made high cap mag....which is what we discussed in the past....

 

right? or wrong?

Right...unless you are talking about Saiga shotguns. ATF has gone on record saying they have 13 parts including three foreign mag parts. If you insert an all-USA magazine in a Saiga shotgun you are "assembling" a 922r compliant shotgun with no more than 10 foreign parts.

 

Everyone confused yet? Shame on the congressmen and President who made 922r a law.

Edited by steve467
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I havent been confused from the getgo.

 

you cant attach any high cap to a stock saiga, RIGHT GUYS?

 

Im being a wiseass, here, sorry.

 

any shotgun that goes past ten rounds WILL BE MADE A DD, regardless of import status or us parts count. the atf is pretty clear on that one.

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this was discussed way back like two years ago I think, when the drum issue was first brought up. I dont want to put the guy on the spot that I recall stating that, but he did say as I recall, that he had spoken with mr nixon at a convention or something like that about drums and larger than ten round mags, and that is what they told him at the time off the record. it was also communicated that they were watching this particular site to keep tabs on what was going on with the drum issue, which is why it was decided to scratch all discussion of making drum mags. I myself have also had private communication on the issue from unspecified people that would be in the know on the subject, and this is what I have come to conclude. I did pursue the issue quite a bit, and I am 100% sure that if a 12 round mag were made for any saiga shotgun, or drum for that matter, the paper would be signed by the atf to ban the gun within days of said mags coming to public market. it already came closer than most people think to happening, when the guy was going to sell modified knox drums or whatever they were for the s12. this is partly why the original manufacturer was contacted directly and brought to light on the issue.

 

besides, the eight rounders are pretty big. a ten rounder like the USAS mags are even bigger. I cant see any way that you would want a two foot mag sticking out the bottom of your shotgun, let alone the weight of it.

 

anyway, this is really about the 20 round 308 mags anyhow. I feel like im beating a dead horse here.

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This thread is so Gaaaaaaaaaaay!!

 

A freaking US made magazine Hicap or Not is a F*^ng "compliance part" as specified by ATF and the damned rifle in hunting stock configuration on has 2 evil features even with the hicap installed and is not an ASSAULT WEAPON!!!

 

All of you bitches who are sniveling about compliance(and probably alerting the ATF Nazis) are a bunch of dickless Kapos and need to give away all of your guns and look into getting a sex change!!!

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I read most of the first page of this thread. A very long thread with a very badly beaten dead horse. CTCStrela has a good point, but what I think people are failing to understand is that the Saiga in not the only semiauto "assault weapon" on the market. There are CETMEs, HK91's, HK G3's, SAR 1,2,and 3, FNFAL's. All are available with magazines greater than 10 rounds. In fact CETME/HK91/G3 20 round mags go for about 5 bucks. If the ATF was really interested in this I think that they would stop the importation of these rifles. Even if they do what's to stop a company from having the pieces shipped into the states and assembled here. With the AWB ban passed on and nothing to replace it, the magazine capacity limit has been lifted in most states that didn't already have magazine capacity limit to begin with. Those states that still have a magazine capacity limit already had that legislature in place or put it into place to forsee that the AWB would expire. The magazine capacity limit didn't just extend to rifles it also included pistols, now you see all the manufactures making Hicap mags for their guns. Heck my 3" XD40 now has 12 round magazine available for it. During the AWB era this was unheard of. Of course just my 2 cents.

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This thread is so Gaaaaaaaaaaay!!

 

A freaking US made magazine Hicap or Not is a F*^ng "compliance part" as specified by ATF and the damned rifle in hunting stock configuration on has 2 evil features even with the hicap installed and is not an ASSAULT WEAPON!!!

 

All of you bitches who are sniveling about compliance(and probably alerting the ATF Nazis) are a bunch of dickless Kapos and need to give away all of your guns and look into getting a sex change!!!

 

C'mon, don't sugarcoat it. Tell us how you really feel.

:lolol:

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One difference, I believe, is that the Saiga is 100% foreign made while the Cetme, FAL, etc., are parts guns with enough domestic parts to make them "American."

 

Monomonk

 

I read most of the first page of this thread. A very long thread with a very badly beaten dead horse. CTCStrela has a good point, but what I think people are failing to understand is that the Saiga in not the only semiauto "assault weapon" on the market. There are CETMEs, HK91's, HK G3's, SAR 1,2,and 3, FNFAL's. All are available with magazines greater than 10 rounds. In fact CETME/HK91/G3 20 round mags go for about 5 bucks. If the ATF was really interested in this I think that they would stop the importation of these rifles. Even if they do what's to stop a company from having the pieces shipped into the states and assembled here. With the AWB ban passed on and nothing to replace it, the magazine capacity limit has been lifted in most states that didn't already have magazine capacity limit to begin with. Those states that still have a magazine capacity limit already had that legislature in place or put it into place to forsee that the AWB would expire. The magazine capacity limit didn't just extend to rifles it also included pistols, now you see all the manufactures making Hicap mags for their guns. Heck my 3" XD40 now has 12 round magazine available for it. During the AWB era this was unheard of. Of course just my 2 cents.
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This thread is so Gaaaaaaaaaaay!!

 

A freaking US made magazine Hicap or Not is a F*^ng "compliance part" as specified by ATF and the damned rifle in hunting stock configuration on has 2 evil features even with the hicap installed and is not an ASSAULT WEAPON!!!

 

All of you bitches who are sniveling about compliance(and probably alerting the ATF Nazis) are a bunch of dickless Kapos and need to give away all of your guns and look into getting a sex change!!!

 

C'mon, don't sugarcoat it. Tell us how you really feel.

:lolol:

 

I'm sorry for holding back but spending so much time around the gentile membership of Saiga-12.com has caused me to become a little soft ;)

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Wow long thread and soo many have no clue.

 

Let me start out by saying the import laws are still in effect. Regardless of the assult weapon ban ending, import laws are still alive theres no disputing that. The topic started is based on the 1968 Gun Control Act and it's extensions. Between 1989 and 1994, major changes were made regarding the importability of semi-automatic rifles and shotguns. The issues then were mostly cosmetic (militarized). People still killed other people like always, but politicians felt they could earn brownie points with their anti-gun special interests by disqualifying scary looking guns from importation. No more AKs or anything else imported with pistol grips, flash-hiders, folding stocks, grenade launchers, etc ...unless it was for non-civilian use or C&R collectors.

This campaign has lasted til today, yes today. The assult weapon ban went further to do the same for domestically made weapons. That ban is over, but the earlier campaign continues. In 1998, an addition was added to the current lasting campaign ( imported long guns could no longer be imported if they could accept magazines with a capacity over 10 rounds/ 5 for shotguns ). No civilian weapon has been imported since that can use such magazines. They actually have to be modified to do so, but guess what you can't simply modify without compliance parts because politicians already thought of that in 1989 (922r). Current ATF letters written after the assult weapon ban had sunsetted still clearly state that using a high capacity magazine to an imported weapon violates 922r. Which is not an issue if you convert the weapon. The ATF tech branch has a clear opinion about this issue. It is just not seen enforced. This 922r issue is a real embarrassment to the ATF.

It is virtually unenforceable and remains a festering problem. There are millions of uncompliant weapons all over America. There are SKS rifles with folding stocks and duckbill magazines, improperly converted MAK90s, and other imports that are non-compliant. The first time I spoke with Debbie from RAA she said that the ATF would not allow RAA to import high capacity mags for the Saigas, or else they would lose importation permits. However, aftermarket magazine manufacturers have no such agreement with the ATF.

The only way to really know whether this issue will cause any commotion at the ATF is to find out directly.

With all the current 922r violations ignored by the ATF, anyone would figure that new high capacity magazines for Saigas should be treated equally ignored. It would only be fair.

Edited by expeditionx
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922 ®

The Imported Parts Law(1990)

178.39 otherwise known as 922® 10 Foreign parts law on semiauto Rifles & Shotguns

http://www.atf.treas.gov/regulations/27cfr178.html

Sec. 178.39 Assembly of semiautomatic rifles or shotguns.

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes.

(B) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution

by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or

(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of

testing or experimentation authorized by the Director under the

provisions of Sec. 178.151; or

(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been imported into or assembled in the United States prior to November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such firearm.

© For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

 

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings

(2) Barrels

(3) Barrel extensions

(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)

(5) Muzzle attachments

(6) Bolts

(7) Bolt carriers

(8) Operating rods

(9) Gas pistons

(10) Trigger housings

(11) Triggers

(12) Hammers

(13) Sears

(14) Disconnectors

(15) Buttstocks

(16) Pistol grips

(17) Forearms, handguards

(18) Magazine bodies

(19) Followers

(20) Floorplates

 

 

If a rifle of shotgun meets the us parts count it is no longer considered an imported weapon by the ATF by a hybrid weapon of essentially US origin like an AR15 or a Mini 14 and is not subject to any of these stupid provisions,period.

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like I said, you have to put US parts into a stock saiga to use any hi-cap in it.....

 

or are you saying otherwise?

 

I think we are all argueing the same point here, except for myself (typically) doing it in one or two sentances.

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In few 10 imported part or less, and the gun is considerd american made

and thats is that, want to use 20 round mags do the conversion

and use american parts thats all, no more no less.

 

Wow this is going to be going on for few centuries as the way is going

DAM

 

You guys will concentrate more in making sure the brothers

of the saiga comunity do conversions with american parts

and no one will have shit to say about guns with 20 rounds

or 30 rounds especially uncle ATFunck.

Edited by vjor
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like I said, you have to put US parts into a stock saiga to use any hi-cap in it.....

 

or are you saying otherwise?

 

I think we are all argueing the same point here, except for myself (typically) doing it in one or two sentances.

 

I agree 100 % parts must be swapped out to technically be compliant.

 

By the way, a picture of the new surefire converted AK mags for saigas.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976575241.htm

post-1624-1156192678_thumb.jpg

Edited by expeditionx
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you guys are too harsh on bush I tell ya! al gore woulda invaded the entire middle east, saying he was from there, and after 9/11, he would have either done nothing, thinking he was watching a movie, or worse, nuked the region, starting all out war worldwide.

 

Im just worried when he leaves office, what will happen. someone will make us all look like pussies, im sure, and hopefully it wont be hillary. at least she cant hijack the presidency like she did with the NY seat. she didnt even LIVE in NY when she ran.

 

nice titties btw.

 

at least we havent had a thread that had the need for the post of the "chicken fucker", like bout this time last year. everyone gave me shit for it, but it SUHT EVERYBODY THE HELL UP REAL FAST! LOL

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Dammit... I tried to not post, but this is just getting freakin' hilarious. I started laughing my ass off at some of the dumbass, creative, and insulting comments. So here's to keeping it going. Thanks for the special olympics, the tittays, Bush and the good legal comments.

 

GOB and Steve467 pretty much covered my stance... Now to my only comment on the issue...

 

The merits of 'sporting' will be determined with or without aftermarket mags. The ATF is not going to ask any of the retards on this board and take their opinion to heart. The fact is than many modified AK mags are already out there that will function in Saiga rifles - just not the 308.

 

FYI for the other legal junkies out there, the Saiga is in good 'sporting' company in the Import Restictions of 27CFR Chapter II Part 447. If you're interested, read Sub-section 447.52('B)(1)(ii)(T) which exempts the Saiga rifle from rifle import restrictions from the former Soviet bloc countries. While being on the list does not guarantee that the Saiga will always be considered 'sporting', it's a good bet that this firearm will remain 'sporting' until the day that (1) all semi-autos are banned from import, or (2) all AK-receiver based firearms are banned from import.

 

As long as we're not lazy, I don't see either one of those days coming in my lifetime... and I plan on being alive for a long time to come.

Edited by RDSWriter
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