The Last Confederate 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Anyone hear that the Saiga 12 was origonally designed as a semi shotgun that could convert to pump for backup? Anyone know what ended up happening to that plan? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Why on earth would anyone want to do that? Maybe for a California legal 5 round magazine fed shotgun but at that rate you might as well have a flint lock oops a regular pump. The S-12 is the best semi automatic shotgun on earth bar none. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Last Confederate 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Why? Because in case something happens, and it won't fire semi auto (could be ammo or gun related) then you ALWAYS have pump for a backup. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO DO IT! No matter what can be said, it is an undisputed FACT that pumps are more reliable than semis. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mudsock 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 An S-12 in a pump configuration can be converted to a pistol grip in New York. That would be nice. Then I could have that ergo feel as the rest of the free States. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rusty 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 (edited) Well.. you could always take the gas plug out and yank the charging handle after each shot.... 3" magnums might short stroke the system just from the recoil, but normal 2 3/4 shells oughta act just like an oddly configured pump. Edited August 31, 2006 by Rusty Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Why? Because in case something happens, and it won't fire semi auto (could be ammo or gun related) then you ALWAYS have pump for a backup. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO DO IT! No matter what can be said, it is an undisputed FACT that pumps are more reliable than semis. Also, if it was like the spas, if it hung or failed to load while shooting you could switch it to pump with the push of a button without having to move either off your hands and staying in on sight in the firing position. But even if they were avaliable and the undisputed fact of pumps reliablity be true, I probably still would want the semi-only anyways. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rusty 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 No matter what can be said, it is an undisputed FACT that pumps are more reliable than semis. In theory yes, but the S12 is pretty damn reliable. Ask BVamp about some of the crap he fed his Saiga and how the pumps were choking on it. And like I said, if you carbon up your gas tube enough to impead functionality: (1) You have other problems (2) You still have a charging handle to pull on Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Ive seen my fair share of pumps go belly up, broken parts and operator error are the culprits. Unfortunately, I've seen my fair share of Saiga's hang up too. Broken ejection port cover and a fair number of FTF's and FTE's. And plenty of operator induced failures too (mostly fumbled reloads :/ ) I've viewed pump and Saiga failures from behind the trigger, and from the observers seat too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Last Confederate 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 (edited) "But even if they were avaliable and the undisputed fact of pumps reliablity be true, I probably still would want the semi-only anyways." Why not? Doesn't make much sense. Might as well take more than what you want, just in case. Edited August 31, 2006 by The Last Confederate Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 (edited) "But even if they were avaliable and the undisputed fact of pumps reliablity be true, I probably still would want the semi-only anyways." Why not? Doesn't make much sense. Might as well take more than what you want, just in case. Someone a while back posted a picture of their non-semi-auto Saiga shotgun. I think he stated that he was from France. This isn't the post but it is similar http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...entry2091 HelloIn France its is far worse than in the States (Thanks to 20 years of socialism): only semi automatic weapon in "civilian" caliber with not detachable 3shots magazine may be owned without special permission. Pay your taxes and shut up !!I recently bought a Saiga 12 which looks great but.. with no gas piston or rod and unfinished gas port Edited August 31, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 I am not knocking anyones desire for any tweaks of a Saiga no matter how odd some may think it... I have to ask, though... *WHY*?!?!?!?!?!?!? purely from a CURIOSITY STANDPOINT....Why do you want a pump/SA saiga? or are you just asking about it?! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 I am not knocking anyones desire for any tweaks of a Saiga no matter how odd some may think it... I have to ask, though... *WHY*?!?!?!?!?!?!? purely from a CURIOSITY STANDPOINT....Why do you want a pump/SA saiga? or are you just asking about it?! The advantage would be you could fire special/low recoil ammo that otherwise wouldn't cycle the action. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Ok I found it. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...9&hl=france HELP - HELPHi, I live in France and I buy a Saiga 410 NOT semi-auto. Now I would convert it in semi-auto => what can I do for this ??? Thanks to all answers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
acetomatoco 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 (edited) Anyone hear that the Saiga 12 was origonally designed as a semi shotgun that could convert to pump for backup? Anyone know what ended up happening to that plan? They make a semi auto Saiga 12 with an alternate pump. A member posted that he has one. Nothing has to be converted. It is made to fire either way. It is made for less than lethal riot rounds,(rubber projectiles with a small powder charge that will not cycle the gas system). http://club.guns.ru/eng/symposium.html Edited August 31, 2006 by acetomatoco Quote Link to post Share on other sites
expeditionx 1 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 (edited) http://club.guns.ru/images/symposium/12.jpg Yep there she is. Edited August 31, 2006 by expeditionx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiny 2 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Here's a pic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 (edited) No matter what can be said, it is an undisputed FACT that pumps are more reliable than semis. No disrespect but that my friend is a myth, I shoot every month at a tactical shotgun match at our local gun club and I see far more people haveing trouble with pumps than auto's it goes against conventional wisdom but it is true none the less. If your in the Virginia or NC are both former Confederate states btw I'd invite you to come out and shoot the match with us. Let me clear one thing up a lot of the people having trouble are experiaced shooters. The only real reason I can see for havng the pump option is when using those less than leathal rounds for crowd control, on when leathal force is not called for. Exactly what are you asking for a Saiga Pump or a Saiga which is both pump and semi auto? In effect you already have that in the form of the bolt instead of a pump just jack the bolt after each shot. Similar to a bolt rifle. I suggest you find one of these Knoxx adaptor things and put in on an 870 or Mossy and you would in effect have the same firepower. Kenneth, agreed I have had trouble with my Saiga now and then, but usually because I was too lazy to clean and lube it, I have never hand trouble when the gun was clean and shooting good quality ammunition. Edited August 31, 2006 by topmaul Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Topmaul is giving it straight as we both have seen pump shotguns malfunction often either from operator error or breakage. Short stroking is probably the number one operator error followed closely by forgetting to chamber a round. Combat stress or simply being on the clock in a match will bring these malfunctions out quite often. A similar problem was solved by the military when vehicle drivers were gnashing gears with manual transmissions on transport and combat vehicles in wartime. The solution: switch everything including tanks to automatic transmissions. Don't get me wrong, as I personally like the idea of a pump back-up system on my Saiga shotgun. The Russians being the K.I.S.S. principle engineers that they are, tried it and decided it was unnecessary. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 Not caring about the reliability bit, which is a pointless conversation in a world were there are 100$ chinese 12 guage pumps, and 3000$ autos. there is quite a difference in the quality of either type. The point for the pump optioned saiga would be less than lethal rounds, or smoke/gas, flare, or novelty rounds like flame throwers... imagine the versitility of having a selection of five round magazines organized on a vest, and being able to quickly adapt to any situation, without being forced to fumble with single shells like you would be, if trying to load a pump. Its a great idea, and if i could find any more information about it, id be very interested. When i decided to buy a saiga, the lack of a pump option was in my opinion the guns biggest flaw. after some consideration, i decided to buy it anyways, as the price was right, and i think with some practice you could still cycle the action at a decent rate with the bolt, if you didnt have a large problem with partial ejection or stovepiping. I havent tried it out myself. If anyone has more information about this saiga, or how it is setup, or built, where one can find one, or how one might make the selector lever, i hope they chime in, im interested. To clarify, i am talking about a semi auto shotgun that also has the ability to cycle the action manualy, without changing your hands from firing position, in my oppinion, such a design, either this saiga (that i had never heard of) or the SPAS, is the perfect shotgun setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fullchoke 0 Posted August 31, 2006 Report Share Posted August 31, 2006 "Why? Because in case something happens, and it won't fire semi auto (could be ammo or gun related) then you ALWAYS have pump for a backup. THAT'S WHY PEOPLE WOULD WANT TO DO IT! No matter what can be said, it is an undisputed FACT that pumps are more reliable than semis." But Dude, If the auto option failed what makes you think that the gun would work as a Pump? Think about that for a minute. If the semi auto Ak design won't work what makes you think that you can manually pump the gun? Personllay I think a pump S-12 is about the stupidest thing i have ever seen, The only resion I could think for owning that would be for the unfortunate souls that live in the Lib. States. If it won't work on auto there is nearly no chance that it would work as a pump. The only thing the pump does is manually jack the bolt back, it would be no more reliable than a auto, in fact there is a chance that it would be less reliable (short stoking the pump). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 I love my Benelli M3 because if it gets too dirty (from firing and sand), or the ammo I grab is too weak, I can switch to pump as an immediate action drill. I've done this on the clock before, and it saved my ass. Being able to stay in the game, or the fight working in pump mode is a great option. A magazine fed shotgun that is semi-auto with a pump back up, would be the best of all worlds. If the saiga had a built in pump option I wouldn't feel the need to have another shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veen 0 Posted September 1, 2006 Report Share Posted September 1, 2006 I've thought about this before, and you'd need to do 3 things: 1) Shut off the gas flow with a switch 2) Lock the bolt in place with said switch so recoil doesn't short stroke it 3) Set up linkage from a custom slide assembly replacing the handguard, to the bolt carrier in the reciever, while being disconnectible with a switch, and routing through/around all the shit in the way. Honestly, the only thing I can't figure out how you'd do without redesigning a whole portion of the gun was how to get the bolt carrier to lock in place at the flick of a switch for pump mode. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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