POSP scope

[marks655 0]

I have a Saiga 'woody' that seems to shoot better with iron sights than with a 4x POSP scope (imported from Belarus, Russia).

 

Groups appear to open-up to 4-6 inches with the scope. The mounting system seems OK and I have tried different amounts of 'pressure' on the clamp with no effect.

 

Does anyone have experience with these ?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[IndyArms 10,186]

Not with that optic on a Saiga 308... BUT... My S308 with a low mount and a bushnell or tasco scope does the EXACT SAME THING... I have tried several different mounts and scopes which I can get to zero PERFECTLY in my S12, or one of the 223's.... WILL NOT ZERO on my 308... however, with irons, I am getting excellent groups at 100!!!!!

 

I gave up trying to shoot it with a scope and have it set up for irons only, as I am confident out to 100 yards I can kill anything larger than a rabbit with it!

 

 

[chapperjoe 0]

I'm about to order my s308 optic - having a tough time choosing. posp pro on AK mount posp pro weaver on KVAR mount, po with 1 inch rings on weaver mount

[dasu 1]

im guess is that this is a cheekweld issue. i dont have anything but a red-dot (im actually waiting on a replacement from freedomoptics.com) but in the past when i cant get a semi to group well and everything is stable (no loose mounts etc) the problem has been with cheek weld. thats interesting, indy, i wonder if the difference is in recoil and how you are holding the rifle. whats the saying no weldy no hitty? well thats my guess.

 

i need some real experience with a scope on a saiga. my next money spent is gonna be on a 6x42 russian scope.

[marks655 0]

I generally use my left hand on the stock as a rest for my cheek with a high AK-type mount. Made no difference to me. The same afternoon I shot a 1/2 dozen sub-0.5 MOA groups with a scoped AR-15, no problem.

Edited September 1, 2006 by marks655

[dasu 1]

well i sure hope i dont have the same problem! i guess ill have to wait to see though.

[danny boy 0]

This seems to be hit or miss (pun intended). My .308 doesn't have a problem with the 6x POSP I have on it and groups well at 200m. Been a while so I can't remember exactly how great.

[Tokageko 8]

I'm inclined to agree with dasu. Move our eye even a few thousandths of an inch in realtion to the ocular, and your crosshairs will be in a substantially different place. That why I keep saying: Sight with your left eye, dammit! Either that, or get something to raise the comb. Beartooth makes a reasonably priced product that should do the trick for you.

 

You could also try glass bedding the contact points for the receiver cover so that when it's on it doesn't move at all, and then welding a piece of rail right to the top of it. That would give you the lowest possible mount, ever.

[ASSASSIN 1]

Hi

 

I have heard a lot of bad things about side rail clamps made in Belarus, many people claim that they are milled too large and will never retain a zero. after fitting the scope to your rifle and firing it, once the groups have opened up can you slide your scope forward any more once you open the clamp? many people report that these clamps shoot loose and drift along the rail causing the loss of accuracy. im not guaranteeing this is what is causing your problem but i am repeating what i have heard. that said i do own a 4x24 scope that i use on my 7.62x39 and it DOES hold its zero and yes it was made in Belarus. i guess there may have been problems that came to light and maybe they have tightened their manufacturing tolerances.

 

Just my 5c

 

assassin

[lsgs 0]

ok this may sound stupid, but we are shooting the psop scope wrong!! i had the luck of talking to some one from across the water in person and on the range on how to shoot that dam scope on the 308. 16 in. we dumb americans use our right eye like our conventional optic setups,, wrong.. shoulder the weapon use the sling put your right cheek down on buttstock with proper cheek weld,, use your left eye to look through psop optic this allows your right eye to veiw irons if need be for fast fire and positions your head correctly on the stock,, dam if it didnt take my group from 4 in to clover leaf at 200 yards. dont use eye extension it will give you a shiner,, da the comrad was right along with i can't drink vodka.

Edited September 13, 2006 by lsgs

[danny boy 0]

You know, I never thought of that. I'm a lefty and shoot left handed, and with the scope offset to the right, I get a much better and more consistant cheek weld. Maybe thats why my groups are better than average on all my POSP equipped rifles. It's definately not my skills.

[dasu 1]

interesting! when i finally get my replacement sight back (UPS messed up the delivery) i will try using the left eye. the difficult thing about using my non-dominant eye is that i will have to unlearn shooting with both eyes open.

and thats the downside i guess of the russian system

[chapperjoe 0]

Hi

 

I have heard a lot of bad things about side rail clamps made in Belarus, many people claim that they are milled too large and will never retain a zero. after fitting the scope to your rifle and firing it, once the groups have opened up can you slide your scope forward any more once you open the clamp? many people report that these clamps shoot loose and drift along the rail causing the loss of accuracy. im not guaranteeing this is what is causing your problem but i am repeating what i have heard. that said i do own a 4x24 scope that i use on my 7.62x39 and it DOES hold its zero and yes it was made in Belarus. i guess there may have been problems that came to light and maybe they have tightened their manufacturing tolerances.

 

Just my 5c

 

assassin

 

IIRC thats the shooting position for the PSL and dragunov, but would not be for a std AK. AK mounts are diferent and slightly higher than weaver or SVD mounts, the posp for AK series is intended for staning moving fire with low magnification, heads up and cerainly right eye.

 

the PSL and dragunov hold is made for left eye shooting. and yes it works VERY well.

[lsgs 0]

jsut use your dam left eye,, interesting though keep both eyse open while using left and swich your dominant to your left it makes an interesting quick aquisition picture. just dont get brain freeze. now if this is going to get more and more complicated, just say screw it and get and stick witha red dot,or.... punt everything buy a natinal match m1a practice and become a rifleman.

[texlurch 0]

Dunno, my 6X seems to hold tight groups just fine. Any fliers are due to the crappy trigger. I'll let you know how it does with the new RSA.

[lsgs 0]

Dunno, my 6X seems to hold tight groups just fine. Any fliers are due to the crappy trigger. I'll let you know how it does with the new RSA.

does yours like light 150 or heavy 168 gr bullets better? mine seems very good with israeli ball but it really likes my handloads,,168 bthp over 43 gr of aa 2520 , which is sort of strange for 16 in bbl.

[texlurch 0]

Dunno, my 6X seems to hold tight groups just fine. Any fliers are due to the crappy trigger. I'll let you know how it does with the new RSA.

does yours like light 150 or heavy 168 gr bullets better? mine seems very good with israeli ball but it really likes my handloads,,168 bthp over 43 gr of aa 2520 , which is sort of strange for 16 in bbl.

 

 

All I shoot is SA surplus, and it does real consistent. 147 gr ball I think? Mine is the 21" version. My G3 likes the SA as well.

[dasu 1]

lsgs what kind of groups are you turning in with 168s over aa2520. yeah ive got to try some handloads. when i get the time...

 

SA turns in about 5-shot 3 moa with irons at my very best. i want to see if i can do any better with a scope. my computer geek eyes need help.

[lsgs 0]

wwe developed this load to shot in a variety of rifles my 16 in saiga shoots moa at 200 yards with irons, and sub moa 1 in with 8 x posp at 200 yards.. now this load was started for me and my buddy for cmp with m14s,, both of our m14s are shooting 1 in groups at 200 with irons..now for heavy guns my savage tactical puts this load into a.34 in group at 100 and my buddys remington police 700 shoots a .37 at 100.. thisis with 168 bthp, 43 gr of aa2520 with win or cci primers, and once fired military brass. it is an accurate s.o.b. i have used this on prarie dogs in newmexico at 600 yards in high wind, and have tested it on 600 meter range around here and kept under 2 in groups consistantly with both the savage and the remington. try it out .. we consider ourselves lucky we found a load that several rifles will shoot...

[Tokageko 8]

Um.... HELLO?

 

Haven't I been saying exactly that for the last year?

 

"put your right cheek down on buttstock with proper cheek weld,, use your left eye to look through psop optic ... and positions your head correctly on the stock"

 

I give up! <exasperation>

 

Oh, and Assassin: That's probably because the aforementioned people overtightened the STEEL screws into the ALUMINUM mount, stripping the threads.

Edited September 17, 2006 by Tokageko

[Tokageko 8]

I'd like to formally request that a post, with pictures, be made up regarding this issue. It should be a sticky. I lack the necessary equipment to provide adequte pictures; so I'd like to step back from the running of this race right now.... assumming it happens.

 

Anyone up for the challenge of writing the next big 308 Sticky?

[phoglund 0]

Tokageko, I'm pleased somebody has finally recognized the truth of the left eye sighting with these scopes. I suggested as much on another forum over a year ago. When I posted my positive experience using the left eye I was totally ignored. I get perfect cheek weld using the left eye and as a bonus can still use the right eye for the iron sights.

 

If there are issues thought to be related to the mounting of a scope I suggest shooting using the iron sights with the scope mounted to see if the problem is related to the scope modifying the point of aim or something else.

 

If you have good bandwidth follow the link below for pictures of my Saiga as well as a target I shot @ 100 yard which shows a nice 1.5" group. Please note I'm not actually much of a shot and the rifle is probably capable of better accuracy. It was shot using the left eye technique.

 

16" 7.62 X 51 Saiga

 

 

Perhaps if enough people simply try the technique and are successful we few who already know how to use these excellent scope/carbine combinations will not have to be so strident in our attempts to get the masses to listen!

 

P.S. The ammo used was Australian ADI Surplus Ball ammo.

Edited September 21, 2006 by phoglund

[danlps1 0]

wwe developed this load to shot in a variety of rifles my 16 in saiga shoots moa at 200 yards with irons, and sub moa 1 in with 8 x posp at 200 yards.. now this load was started for me and my buddy for cmp with m14s,, both of our m14s are shooting 1 in groups at 200 with irons..now for heavy guns my savage tactical puts this load into a.34 in group at 100 and my buddys remington police 700 shoots a .37 at 100.. thisis with 168 bthp, 43 gr of aa2520 with win or cci primers, and once fired military brass. it is an accurate s.o.b. i have used this on prarie dogs in newmexico at 600 yards in high wind, and have tested it on 600 meter range around here and kept under 2 in groups consistantly with both the savage and the remington. try it out .. we consider ourselves lucky we found a load that several rifles will shoot...

[dasu 1]

16" 7.62 X 51 Saiga

 

Forget the rifle, you live in a gorgeous area! Now thats a shootin' range. Anyways thats a nice setup you have. I would like to get a 6x POSP.

[GonzoX 0]

Hi

 

I have heard a lot of bad things about side rail clamps made in Belarus, many people claim that they are milled too large and will never retain a zero. after fitting the scope to your rifle and firing it, once the groups have opened up can you slide your scope forward any more once you open the clamp? many people report that these clamps shoot loose and drift along the rail causing the loss of accuracy. im not guaranteeing this is what is causing your problem but i am repeating what i have heard. that said i do own a 4x24 scope that i use on my 7.62x39 and it DOES hold its zero and yes it was made in Belarus. i guess there may have been problems that came to light and maybe they have tightened their manufacturing tolerances.

 

Just my 5c

 

assassin

 

IIRC thats the shooting position for the PSL and dragunov, but would not be for a std AK. AK mounts are diferent and slightly higher than weaver or SVD mounts, the posp for AK series is intended for staning moving fire with low magnification, heads up and cerainly right eye.

 

the PSL and dragunov hold is made for left eye shooting. and yes it works VERY well.

 

OMG I did not know about the left eye thing.

 

Let me get your opinion on something please.

 

I have a Romanian 4x26 surplus PSL scope that I intend to use on my Saiga 223.

Should I use the left with this combination? And yes, I know this is a 308 thread.

 

My PSL scope has the drag type mount lock so I have to slide it on my Saiga from the front. It does however lock down tight as far as I can tell. And hell, it was on sale.

 

At 50yard pistol range my 223 bullets hit exactly where I adjusted the scope too and where my sighting laser and iron sights point too. Problem is that once I go over to the 100yard range I do not even think Im hitting my target.

 

Any clue as to what may cause this? Would using the left eye move the hit chevron in my sight picture?

 

I have a replacement AK type mount on order to screw on the PSL scope's base so I hope this will solve my dilema.

 

FWIW Im not looking for a sniper rifle or anything, I just have to use a scope at 100yrds or beyond because I am old and blind LOL. I can't even use Iron sights at 100yards even with my correctional glasses on, sad but true.

[lsgs 0]

if your gun and mount system is the offset to the left,, not the scope directly over the top of the receiver then YES use your left eye,,, thats what the system was designed for on any caliber.. , now if you have the belaris mount with the weaver rail that positions an add on scope or dot sight perfectly center then use traditional sighting ...

[GonzoX 0]

Holly Molly, I will have to call your bluff on that one.

 

I did a search and even went to dragunov.net and could not find any info on this. looked for archive photos of snipers and found nada.

Did a Yahoo photo search and found literally dozens of photos of Russian and Warsaw Pact soldiers using their Drags and PSLs and guess what. Every single one of them is using his right eye "American Style".

 

Just for giggles I tried this with my offset PSL scope and Saiga 223 and although I could get my eye up too it, it felt really strange. I had to cock my head to the right at what felt like a 45deg angle and smash my cheek into the butt until the plastic surgically fused with my jawbone and skin.

 

I know it's not April 1st, but I think your messing with us right? I may be new to this forum but I wasn't born yesterday LOL.

Next you will ask me to find a left handed monkey wrench.

 

While on the subject, would you guys recommend a 4x24 or 6x42 PSOP for a 223? If I buy a new one I might go with the 6x but it appears to be wider towards the muzzle end so it may not clear my iron sights.

 

Sorry for all the questions, I might have to rerout my questions to the 223 forum I guess.

Edited October 10, 2006 by GonzoX

[Birrdog 0]

I to have a 8x and there is now way your going to shoot at a deer with your head way on the other side of the stock. Sorry But mine sits low and yes i can see through it with the left eyebut it is soo strange and uncomfortable theres now your going to shoo tit right. I have a question, took my Saiga 308 out to sit it in and forgot how to adjust the height and right to left. Anyone care to show me or tell me where I can find the info to adjust it? Thank you. the first 2 shoots where way high, if I was shooting a deer at 100 yards I'd have to am at his knees lol

[Tokageko 8]

Well, I guess it's much like the dynamic entry position for a pistol: some people can and some people can't. It takes a slightly different stance if you're standing or sitting, different placement of the buttstock on the shoulder, and above all PRACTICE.

 

Most of your people in those pictures are probably right eye dominant.

[O.S.O.K. 0]

I to have a 8x and there is now way your going to shoot at a deer with your head way on the other side of the stock. Sorry But mine sits low and yes i can see through it with the left eyebut it is soo strange and uncomfortable theres now your going to shoo tit right. I have a question, took my Saiga 308 out to sit it in and forgot how to adjust the height and right to left. Anyone care to show me or tell me where I can find the info to adjust it? Thank you. the first 2 shoots where way high, if I was shooting a deer at 100 yards I'd have to am at his knees lol

 

Top knob is elevation and right knob is windage. Just look through the scope and watch the reticle while you adjust and that will tell you which way causes the group to rise and which way to fall, move left, right. Remember, if the reticle drops, that moves the group up (you raise the rifle to compensate - see?).

 

Once you have it zero'ed, carefully loosen the two little screws on the top of the knobs and rotate the top to the "1" position for the top (assuming a 100 meter zero) and to the "0" postition on windage and then tighten the screws back down.

 

That's it.

 

As to the inability of some AK's to zero with side mount rail optics and/or losing accuracy, I think this is due to the very nature of the mount system. Either the side rail isn't completely stable or the side of the receiver is flexing under recoil - differently from shot to shot. Either could cause the phenomona.

 

I'm betting that this is more prevalanet with heavy optics, as they have more inertial pull under recoil. I'd try a low mount rail and a lightweight red dot or low, fixed power scope like a Burris short mag 4x. That might do the trick - or not...

Edited October 16, 2006 by O.S.O.K.