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16" vs 22" barrel?


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#1 brian33x51

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Posted 13 June 2004 - 11:44 PM

Just curious. I'm looking at buying a saiga 308 and converting it, was just wondering if there's any advantage between the two. I'm leaning towards the longer barrelled version.

#2 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 03:10 AM

The difference between 16" and 18" on a 308 is significant. You'll notice a differenxce in flash and ballistics. The 22" is more efficient.
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#3 Macx

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 08:28 AM

Yes, the 22" will get slightly higher terminal velocity . . ..

However, as I am fond of saying to my friend's 9 year old when he asks "what is the best gun?" . . . . it depends on what you intend to do with it. I think when we are honest with ourselves about the advantages and limitations of the Kalashnikov design, the 16" wins out. Kalashnikovs aren't "sniper" rifles by any means. Heck of a great all-rounder, but just not tops in the super long distance precision game. The design just doesn't have the accuracy to take full advantage of a longer barrel, that is, the difference between the 16" and 22" is so minute that I (with stress on personal preference) prefer the easier handling 16". The 22" just (while it has the advantage) doesn't offer enough of an advantage to justify the 6" more difficulty moving around in tight places & the added weight. I will concede that the 16" REALLY needs some flash suppression for “real combat” type use. . . . but then, deer and stuff we really are likely to shoot don’t tend to return fire.


But this is all just my humble opinion, operating under the premise that if the mission parameters did include super long range precision shooting, there would be a bolt gun which the Saiga .308 would be supporting & sharing ammo interchangeability with.
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#4 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 12:38 PM

I go for accuracy in a rifle. unless its a gun that was originally made short, like an AK47. .308? i would definately go over 20"
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#5 tomme boy

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Posted 14 June 2004 - 03:30 PM

One of these days I will get a pic of one of my buds 308 sagia. It has a 26" Adams & Bennett barrel on it. I have seen him shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yds with Nato surplus ammo. I am not talking about how how everyone measures their groups by shooting 20 rounds and you find one group of the 20 that measures 3/4". This is a real 10 shot group, all 10 shots.

He made it to look just like a RPK. He took all of the diamensions from an actual RPK barrel, Then turned the barrel to match it. Carved all of the wood out of Burled Walnut.

We have to start on some handloads. I know we will be able to get it to at least 3/8-1/2" groups.

All it takes to make one of these things shoot is to get a good barrel on it. I plan on doing one like this soon. Just have to get some more $

#6 brian33x51

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 09:29 AM

Well, at this moment I own a 308 cetme.
I should have inspected the barrel more when I bought it, I see some pitting and such in there.

I thought I might get an AK style 308 weapon, especially considering how much easier it is to clean my WASR-10 compared to the inside of the receiver on the cetme (the flutes especially are a major pain).

I wouldn't want to make the saiga be a SVD clone or anything, but possibly convert the 22" saiga 308 and use a G2 trigger group and find a druganov style stock.

The barrel conversion sounds pretty interesting.
Does anyone know how practical and effective it would be to put a new heavy duty barrel on the cetme?
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#7 Siagalova

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Posted 15 June 2004 - 11:27 AM

I don't know if this means anything, but when I shoot my 7.62 with a 20" (or whatever its is, the longer one) BBL, against any of the AK european variants with the standard BBL (16.5?) - my saiga out shoots them hands down!! Even when someone was lucky enought to find one new from the factory!
I'm not sure if this applies to the .308. There was a thread on this site where someone explained that a 16" barrel is more rigid and the 22" flexes more - which kinda makes sense, but what do I know?
longer barrel means more accuracy is what I was always led to beleive. I can't wait to get mine.
I'm going to have to TOTALLY agree about the simplicity of cleaning! I made a guy at the gun show break down a CETME to show me that I needed one, hands down I'd rather have the Saiga!

#8 AKdaddy

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Posted 16 June 2004 - 12:07 PM

Longer barrels are more accurate. If your shooting open sights. With two equal barrels one being shorter than the other, the shorter barrel is stiffer and thus more accurate. If longer barrels are more accurate then match grade rifles would be showing up with 40" barrels. They don't. They are thicker instead which also helps with heat distortion.

Mike

#9 Macx

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Posted 16 June 2004 - 02:00 PM

Well said. The longer sight radius of the longer barrel makes the 22" more accurate than the 16" with open sights . . . with optics the advantage goes to the 16" for the reasons you point out. That makes alot of sense.

#10 brian33x51

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Posted 03 July 2004 - 11:25 PM

A co worker of mine decided to jump and get the 22" version.

Another co worker bought a vepr 308 22" also about a month ago.

It actually looks like the barrel is heavier on the saiga than on the vepr.

The finish on the saiga is actually not bad either. I was expecting MUCH worse (I have a WASR-10)

I think I'll end up with the 22" one...

#11 Salmonaxe

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 09:32 AM

Well, at this moment I own a 308 cetme.
I should have inspected the barrel more when I bought it, I see some pitting and such in there.

I thought I might get an AK style 308 weapon, especially considering how much easier it is to clean my WASR-10 compared to the inside of the receiver on the cetme (the flutes especially are a major pain).

I wouldn't want to make the saiga be a SVD clone or anything, but possibly convert the 22" saiga 308 and use a G2 trigger group and find a druganov style stock.

The barrel conversion sounds pretty interesting.
Does anyone know how practical and effective it would be to put a new heavy duty barrel on the cetme?

I fell for the Cetme too... I didn't do my research, and I didn't even think that it was a parts gun! It looked new, so I didn't bother the check the bore. The lands and grooves are barely visible and there's a lot of pitting! It doesn't shoot for crap past 50yrds!!!! I dunno if this is because of the barrel though, it could be the muzzle break, or the crappy optics I put on it (with a Tapco claw mount). No matter what, I was disappointed in it, and didn't want to feed it anymore expensive .308 ammo to try and troubleshoot it.

I wished I'd saved my money and bought a saiga instead. Who cares about the low capacity mags? It's not like it be an assault rifle to me. The only thing I would like is a Dragunov style stock on it, like a Romak-3. I already have a ANVS 8X42 scope, do the Saiga's in .308 have the AK style scope mount rail?

My Mosin Nagant 91/30 has a long ass barrel (26" I think) and that shoots really straight even though it has some pitting.

Besides, if you get a longer barrel, and shoot the crap out of it, you could always chop a bit off the end and have it recrowned, to defeat the muzzle end erosion that destroys the accuracy of many rifles.
*M4 A3 w/ARMS SIR,Comp ML2-----------------------*Sig226 w/trigicon
*.308 Rem 700 5R-BBL w/VX-III 4.5-14x40mm-----*RRA A3 20"HBAR w/Elcan
*BulgarianSLR w/PK-A----------------------------------*Saiga 12 Conv.
*SAR-1--------------------------------------------------*Saiga 308 Conv. w/PSOP
*Ruger 10-22-------------------------------------------*Mosin Nagant 91/30
*USP45F-------------------------------------------------*SL8
*Cetme

#12 ABNAK

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 07:39 PM

I honestly have no use for a 16" .308 rifle. That's why I've never purchased one of SA's SOCOM's. I've done some research and a 16" barrel almost neuters a .308 round velocity-wise. Basically you'll have a 150gr FMJ at about 2400+fps. Hell, an AK will give you a 122gr slug at or slightly below that velocity.

Now 18"? Perhaps.....

Edited by ABNAK, 02 April 2008 - 07:39 PM.

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#13 cscharlie

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 08:25 PM

It's nice to have options.

With that in mind, if you wanted to recrown the barrel later and had a 16" barrel to start with, and the limit is 16", how long do you suppose the barrel will be after removing the old crown, squaring it up, and cutting a new crown....?

It's prob easier to shorten a longer barrel then to add to a shorter barrel.

In a way, even a 22" barrel is short for a .308. I decided I like 18" of barrel on the S-.308 when using a Vortex hider.

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#14 Bender

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Posted 02 April 2008 - 09:01 PM

solution:

Posted Image

one of each!
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#15 mr. fudd

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 12:33 AM

Bender,

Who did the furniture on that top rifle and how did you mount the buttstock? That thing looks fantastic. I've always wanted a wood stocked AK without the dip in it. The pistol grip looks great too.

#16 SN13

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 07:29 AM

It looks like BG3's Wood Work.
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#17 Bender

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 09:11 AM

It looks like BG3's Wood Work.

ding ding! Correct, that's a brg3 set I got second hand. The handguard is still short a couple coats, I'm just waiting for it to warm up a little more outside so my garage isn't below the recommended temperature to stain.
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#18 jakemccoy

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 03:00 PM

Voting is closed I guess.
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#19 Otto

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 10:32 PM

Bender, a quick question if I may? My Saiga looks virtually identical to your bottom one. Is there any way to install a recoil pad similar to the one on your wood stocked rifle to the polymer butt stock? I really want the additional length and the protection would be a good thing too!!

Thanks!

Otto

#20 Shaneman153D

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Posted 03 April 2008 - 11:44 PM

Bender, a quick question if I may? My Saiga looks virtually identical to your bottom one. Is there any way to install a recoil pad similar to the one on your wood stocked rifle to the polymer butt stock? I really want the additional length and the protection would be a good thing too!!

Thanks!

Otto


God this thread is old............

Posted Image

Kinda hard to see Otto, but I added a Limbsaver "grind to fit" recoil pad (Size small) to my K-var stock. This is the second gun I've done this way (S-12). If you go this route, ensure you have a Warsaw-length stock. My S-12 has a NATO length stock, and the LOP is just a tad bit too long (I'm 5'10")

One note, this is purely function over form. The "purists" will turn their nose up at you if you do this, as it doesn't look original. That being said it is the single greatest recoil-reducer of any other mods I've done to both guns. I S*** you not, my S-308, with the '74 brake and recoil pad has less recoil and muzzle jump than my Romy-G AK (x39). So if this gun is a "shooter", I say go for it.

How:

1. Take the stock off, remove buttplate & TRAPDOOR (metal + saw = bad).

2. Wrap the backside of the stock with painter's tape (Any masking tape will do)

3. Cut off the end of the buttstock, on a tablesaw (to square the butt up). Only take off enough material to square it up. If you take too much off, the screwholes won't be long enough to hold
the screws. When you make the cut, lay the buttstock on it's side, prop up the front of the stock so the stock is parallel to the surface, and hold the butt up against the fence when cutting (this
will ensure the angle on your butt is perpendicular to the long axis of the rifle).
GO SLOW AND BE CAFEFUL! It cuts through the polymer very easily, but it is not made for this, so use common table saw sense!!!

4. Freeze the recoil pad prior to grinding it down, this makes it come out a LITTLE cleaner. Put the pad in place and trace the outline of the stock onto the backing of the recoil pad. When you line the
pad up, ensure that one of the screw holes is lined up. The limbsaver has pre-drilled holes in it that don't match up, but you can use one of them and drill for the other.

5. Use a Fixed Disk sander to grind the pad. You can't see your traced outline as you sand, so you have to do a little at a time. Just go slow, and follow the instructions. Make sure and use the grit
they suggest, and use the WD-40 as suggested. I used a finer grain paper on the second one I did, and it pinched chunks out of the side of the pad. Looks kinda crappy up close, but nothing people
really notice.

Edited by shaneman153a, 03 April 2008 - 11:44 PM.

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#21 Otto

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 01:11 AM

Shaneman, you are braver than I! But I can see how this works very well. What you've done is exactly what I'm wishing to do, a decent recoil pad on my K-var and a muzzle brake. (this, too is a challenge with the 16.5' barrel). Since I have more $ than talent hopefully I can find someone here in Las Vegas to do the work.

Otto

#22 Shaneman153D

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Posted 04 April 2008 - 09:32 AM

If you don't mind pin-on, I got Dinzag's brake. I mic'd the O.D., sent him the measurements, and he reamed it to fit, sent it out.

The stock really isn't that tough, you just have to have the saw and sander to do it.
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#23 -Indy-

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 04:53 PM

It always amazes me how a thread almost 4 years old can be re-constituted and actually be helpful to someone with new input...


even though the original thread topic was laid to rest long ago! LOL


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#24 macbeau

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 06:50 PM

It always amazes me how a thread almost 4 years old can be re-constituted and actually be helpful to someone with new input...


even though the original thread topic was laid to rest long ago! LOL


:smoke:

It amazes me too - but that's what you get with a "search" function on this forum... :rolleyes:
That said...,
In my experience - out the 300M - there really isn't much of a difference in accuracy or terminal performance between the two, but the 16.3" seems to have a slight edge due to the (theorized) ridgity of the barrel - inside 300M. Beyond that, it's apples vs. oranges and shooter ability vs. ammo quality. While the 22" give a slight edge on velocity (less than 100 fps in my chrono tests using "same-lot" SA ammo), the 16.3" is handier (subjective) and "cooler" looking (again - subjective) than the longer barrel.
If I could only own one of the two - having never owned one before - I'd go with the 22" just in case I wanted to cut it back later; but I love my 16.1" (since I trimmed it) more than any other .308 I have ever owned (and that includes a Rem 700 PSS and VS, a IZZY FAL, an M1A, an M14 and several Mil-Surp .308's). PUNTO!
Not hamstringed by that (yet), shoot both (if you can) and decide for yourself. Some may disagree, but I prefer the 16.3" for all around "usefulness" and utility. I have a (and have owned several) .308 "tactical / precission" bolt rifle, but it is in a diffrerent class; the S-308 (as a 16.3") is a light-weight, super-handy, utilitarian "Battle rifle".
The AK family are "fighting guns" and well suited for everyone (with minimal training), but also great for the true "rifleman" (notice - I didn't say "marksman" or "sniper" or "sharpshooter"). These are fighting (hunting) rifles that are very good at what they do - especially for the price...

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#25 T30

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Posted 09 April 2008 - 11:05 PM

If you’re looking for portability the 16.5 is definitely handier. My 16.5 flame thrower shoots M80 Ball at about 2550 on the chrono. It’s capable of good accuracy out to 300 yards even with the sub-par AK iron sights. I added a folder to make it more portable.

Attached Files


Edited by T30, 09 April 2008 - 11:06 PM.


#26 macbeau

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 06:39 PM

My 16" er is about as handy and utiltarian as it gets (an included an M-60 FH on it... ) Flash / Flame-ball is not a problem... It only weighs about .5lbs more than my Norico fully loaded... and about 1" longer (with the M-60 FH). Inside 300m, it will do everything I want from a rifle (sub 1 MOA)...
It fits in nicely with my Galil ARM and Norinco .223 (BWK-92). :super:
[BTW - I am getting about 2650 (+/- 50fps) out of mine using S.A. ball, 173gn Lake City Match and 147gn Lithuanian.... -- 1.25" to 3/4" groups at 100, 200 and 300 Meters... FWIW] :ph34r:

Attached Files

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  • Attached File  076.JPG   133.64KB   64 downloads

Edited by macbeau, 17 April 2008 - 06:51 PM.

"Inside every liberal is an American trying to get out." -- Macbeau (2004)

"Don't talk to me about naval tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash." -- Sir Winston Churchill (1943)

"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country," --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington, DC. (1991)

"Statistics in the hands of an liberal are like a lamp-post to a drunk - they're used more for support than illumination." -- Bill Sangster (1989)

"We have four boxes used to guarantee our liberty: The soap box, the ballot box, the jury box and the cartridge box". -- Ambrose Bierce (1887)

Good judgement comes from experience.
Experience comes from bad judgement.
- Unknown...

 


#27 aka108

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Posted 23 April 2008 - 09:03 AM

I have the 308 with 22 in bbl with wood furniture. Added a 3X9 optical scope. Wish I had purchased the 16 in with synthetic furniture as the wood and the extra bbl length and optics make it a heavy and unwieldy firearm. Fixing to trade it off shortly.

#28 Dancing Bear

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Posted 11 June 2008 - 09:59 AM

Let's ressurect this again.
I'm starting to research a Saiga .308 and will be doing all the work myself on this one.
I'm leaning towards a 22' bbl.

Of course, it all depends on what is available I guess.
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#29 engbob

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Posted 17 June 2008 - 03:44 PM

Depends on what you're planning on doing with it

1. Make it a Saiga-Nov (Dragunov style) then get the 22"
2. A CQB Rifle, then of course go with the 16"
3. Or....get one of each and do both

#30 mechsterbator

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Posted 23 June 2008 - 09:44 PM

One of these days I will get a pic of one of my buds 308 sagia. It has a 26" Adams & Bennett barrel on it. I have seen him shoot 3/4" groups at 100 yds with Nato surplus ammo. I am not talking about how how everyone measures their groups by shooting 20 rounds and you find one group of the 20 that measures 3/4". This is a real 10 shot group, all 10 shots.

He made it to look just like a RPK. He took all of the diamensions from an actual RPK barrel, Then turned the barrel to match it. Carved all of the wood out of Burled Walnut.

We have to start on some handloads. I know we will be able to get it to at least 3/8-1/2" groups.

All it takes to make one of these things shoot is to get a good barrel on it. I plan on doing one like this soon. Just have to get some more $


where would one find this 26" Adams and Bennett barrel?




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