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16" vs 22" barrel?


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#151 t165

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Posted 06 January 2012 - 06:03 PM

I've read several posts on this thread many times over the years and I apoligize in advance if this has already been discussed here, BUT.....I recently read a discussion on another forum about cutting down barrels with chrome lined bores. Some people complained about the chrome lining flaking after cutting down their barrels and re-crowning. Is this a legitimate concern or not?

#152 Nailbomb

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Posted 14 February 2012 - 08:38 PM

Poll Closed
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#153 ElGato

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 07:14 PM

Great thread....even if it is old

#154 cbr

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Posted 16 February 2012 - 09:59 PM

I'd wager that the chrome could start chipping off seeing as the barrel will be cut then recrowned, I have been on the fence about cutting mine down and just cant decide. It will cost about $150-$200 to cut and crown my problem is not the money it is I just don't trust anyone to work on my guns. Just like my vehicles I have never taken any of my vehicles to a mechanic id rather do the work myself and know it was done right. As I dont have the tools to cut and crown my barrel I think im honestly going to just buy another short barrel 308 for $499.

#155 cbr

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Posted 19 February 2012 - 03:01 PM

Im wondering if the long barrel 308 has a thicker barrel than the short one. If it does then you would get far more accuracy from a cut down long barrel as it will be stiffer and have far less flex.

#156 EZTundra77

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 06:37 AM

Yes, the 22" will get slightly higher terminal velocity . . ..

However, as I am fond of saying to my friend's 9 year old when he asks "what is the best gun?" . . . . it depends on what you intend to do with it. I think when we are honest with ourselves about the advantages and limitations of the Kalashnikov design, the 16" wins out. Kalashnikovs aren't "sniper" rifles by any means. Heck of a great all-rounder, but just not tops in the super long distance precision game. The design just doesn't have the accuracy to take full advantage of a longer barrel, that is, the difference between the 16" and 22" is so minute that I (with stress on personal preference) prefer the easier handling 16". The 22" just (while it has the advantage) doesn't offer enough of an advantage to justify the 6" more difficulty moving around in tight places & the added weight. I will concede that the 16" REALLY needs some flash suppression for "real combat" type use. . . . but then, deer and stuff we really are likely to shoot don't tend to return fire.


But this is all just my humble opinion, operating under the premise that if the mission parameters did include super long range precision shooting, there would be a bolt gun which the Saiga .308 would be supporting & sharing ammo interchangeability with.


I agree on all points. I chose the 22" barrel because I was dead set on a Saiga .308 but I want to be able to hunt with it until I can afford a bolt action. My buddy hunts with a .308 Saiga 22" occasionally-just for fun- and he says it's good to about 250 yards with a decent scope. And by bolt gun will, as you said, be a .308 too so i can share ammo. As far as deer shooting back, up in Northern Michigan, I think some deer have joined Militias. Anything is possible up here.

#157 Jaba1017

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Posted 16 June 2012 - 10:26 PM

Hey Ive had quotes as high as 250 to cut it down, thread, and crown. Most of these guys just dont need the work it seems.


That seems to be the case. None of the qualified gunsmiths around me have the time or the desire to fool with small jobs. And the shade tree guys aren't going to do any better than I can do. So I end up doing most everything myself.

#158 Rhodes1968

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:24 AM

I've read several posts on this thread many times over the years and I apoligize in advance if this has already been discussed here, BUT.....I recently read a discussion on another forum about cutting down barrels with chrome lined bores. Some people complained about the chrome lining flaking after cutting down their barrels and re-crowning. Is this a legitimate concern or not?


Never read of it being an issue on Saigas. Russian chrome is the best in the world and if the process is done correctly it really cant chip.
Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#159 EZTundra77

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Posted 20 June 2012 - 12:47 PM

One consideration, specifically here in Michigan, is overall length IF you put a folding stock on it. Not quite the same as a collapsible stock. Michigan has this rule that it must be 30" overall length to be a rifle, else it is a short barreled rifle... OR a pistol. Guess you have to see what side of the fence you want to climb over to be right. This thread: http://www.perfectun.......1346&page=2 happened to mention the legalities of an AK with a FACTORY folding stock getting confiscated. Looks like if you were to get the 22" barrel, you have a better chance of making that magical number if you put a side folder on it. I think it' BS though!!!

This is the primary reason I went with the 22". I put a Bonesteel hinge and an Ace Skeleton on it (very strong setup-puts the cheap Crapco-type stuff to shame) Anyways, my overall length with the stock folded in is just over 30", meaning the Sheriff dont need to know i got an AK (til he reads this). Supposedly the extra length doesn't add too much in velocity. I think you gain an extra 25 fps per inch. But that's 150 fps comparing the 16 to the 22. And I ain't too great a shot yet, so the extra accuracy helps. The long barrel doesn't ever feel cumbersome to me, but I'm 6'3". It probably differs from person to person. Carrying it in the woods is fine, and in close quarters, I would use a different gun (my Glock or my 12 gauge)

#160 cbr

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Posted 13 November 2013 - 08:39 PM

Damn wish Id actually bought a 16" when they were only $499 now they are asking insane prices still havent cut mine down as there seems to be no  definite answer either way as to which is better. All I know is from the 16" 308s I have seen at night they toss a pretty good fireball which implies wasted powder. 



#161 Ak Monty

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Posted 15 November 2013 - 01:21 AM

16" then put a vortex flash hider or aac blackout. IMO the extra FPS wont make any difference Unless you are shooting at limits of the platform. I have no plans to shoot 600 yards with an ak. I think if I'm worried about long range a 1-11.75 twist 308 isnt what I would shoot. I think if you want to build an SVD look alike then the longer tube is good or if your going to cut to say 18" or so but with the 16" it just looks just like an ak only with a bigger magazine and I love that.

#162 Unknown Poster

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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:49 PM

Brand new right out of the box after a good cleaning and lubing the action and trigger sear with only we took my saiga in 308 w/16" barrel to the range so we could benchrest it with some south African 308 ball ammo. Untouched right out of the box she's shooting 1 1/2" groups at 100yds.  For a brand new Russian ak/akm rifle having this kind of accuracy is unheard of. But my son changed out the target and he matched my 1 1/2" groups perfectly.

 

I just received the scopemount for my 22" barreled saiga from kalinka. I purchased the Bushnell banner scope for it with the BDC option. It's bullet drop compisation from 100 to 450yds with no hold over or error. You just dope the distance using the adjustable vertical turret. I have yet to sight it in yet. I have the same scope on all my hunting rifles too besides my m14.

 

For my saiga in 223 with the 16" barrel it's the BSA scope with the BDC option that's designed for the 223 round. Every family member has one.

 

Why play with scopes we can't dope?


Damn wish Id actually bought a 16" when they were only $499 now they are asking insane prices still havent cut mine down as there seems to be no  definite answer either way as to which is better. All I know is from the 16" 308s I have seen at night they toss a pretty good fireball which implies wasted powder. 

When I purchased my new saigas the 223/16" with two mags was $259 & the 308 / 16"&22" with two mags was just $289. I bought a half dozen. After shooting the first one remembering what happened to the import of the norinco sks with slick Willy.


Edited by Unknown Poster, 19 November 2013 - 01:50 PM.


#163 diggo

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Posted 19 February 2014 - 03:26 PM

I just traded one of those sks I had and a old 12g bird gun for a 22' s308 :) I think I am going to cut mine to 18" myself and crown the barrel after I convert it.



#164 Jaba1017

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Posted 20 February 2014 - 08:05 PM

In all the boards and forums this debate has hashed out the general consensus has been that the 16" is par or better than the 22" in accuracy, better than the 22" in weight and balance, and lagging the 22" in the cool factor. The "best " Saiga 308 is probably a 22" cut and crowned at 18". Mileage varies on the 308. Some are dead on and 1000m capable. Most are 300m hunting rifles.

#165 JaredC

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 12:29 AM

In all the boards and forums this debate has hashed out the general consensus has been that the 16" is par or better than the 22" in accuracy, better than the 22" in weight and balance, and lagging the 22" in the cool factor. The "best " Saiga 308 is probably a 22" cut and crowned at 18". Mileage varies on the 308. Some are dead on and 1000m capable. Most are 300m hunting rifles.

I happen to have a 22" waiting to be converted. So lets say Im one of the unlucky ones, what are some mods that I can do to improve the accuracy? I know its not what the AK was designed for, but Id like to get as much accuracy I can out of it.



#166 Jaba1017

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 09:11 AM

In all the boards and forums this debate has hashed out the general consensus has been that the 16" is par or better than the 22" in accuracy, better than the 22" in weight and balance, and lagging the 22" in the cool factor. The "best " Saiga 308 is probably a 22" cut and crowned at 18". Mileage varies on the 308. Some are dead on and 1000m capable. Most are 300m hunting rifles.

I happen to have a 22" waiting to be converted. So lets say Im one of the unlucky ones, what are some mods that I can do to improve the accuracy? I know its not what the AK was designed for, but Id like to get as much accuracy I can out of it.

there
There are some articles online discussing the Saiga as a DMR ora "guerrilla sniper." For me the biggest factors were ergonomics, balance and weight. Getting a consistent solid cheek weld and good sight picture help a lot. I'm running a Warsaw length stock with a 1-4x optic ina MI mount right now. If I could find a descent SVD style stock with a riser I think I could get a little more consistency out of it.

#167 csspecs

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Posted 21 February 2014 - 11:00 AM

Keeping pressure off the barrel can help.

 

I'm running AK hand guards which move the barrel contact points back a few inches. That seemed to help groupings tighten from 6" to 5"

 

One of these days I'm going to build a Free float hand guard and gas tube and post the designs for it. I hope that gets me to 3" or 4" with decent ammo.

 

My best grouping was around 3" however it was not something I could repeat with any certainty.



#168 Netpackrat

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Posted 24 February 2014 - 02:37 AM

A simple barrel recrown (done by the 'smith who threaded it for me) seemed to have helped my 16" rifle quite a bit.



#169 EZTundra77

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Posted 08 March 2014 - 12:33 AM

 

Well, at this moment I own a 308 cetme.
I should have inspected the barrel more when I bought it, I see some pitting and such in there.

I thought I might get an AK style 308 weapon, especially considering how much easier it is to clean my WASR-10 compared to the inside of the receiver on the cetme (the flutes especially are a major pain).

I wouldn't want to make the saiga be a SVD clone or anything, but possibly convert the 22" saiga 308 and use a G2 trigger group and find a druganov style stock.

The barrel conversion sounds pretty interesting.
Does anyone know how practical and effective it would be to put a new heavy duty barrel on the cetme?

I fell for the Cetme too... I didn't do my research, and I didn't even think that it was a parts gun! It looked new, so I didn't bother the check the bore. The lands and grooves are barely visible and there's a lot of pitting! It doesn't shoot for crap past 50yrds!!!! I dunno if this is because of the barrel though, it could be the muzzle break, or the crappy optics I put on it (with a Tapco claw mount). No matter what, I was disappointed in it, and didn't want to feed it anymore expensive .308 ammo to try and troubleshoot it.

I wished I'd saved my money and bought a saiga instead. Who cares about the low capacity mags? It's not like it be an assault rifle to me. The only thing I would like is a Dragunov style stock on it, like a Romak-3. I already have a ANVS 8X42 scope, do the Saiga's in .308 have the AK style scope mount rail?

My Mosin Nagant 91/30 has a long ass barrel (26" I think) and that shoots really straight even though it has some pitting.

Besides, if you get a longer barrel, and shoot the crap out of it, you could always chop a bit off the end and have it recrowned, to defeat the muzzle end erosion that destroys the accuracy of many rifles.

 

Yes.  My s308 has the same ak-syle optics mount.  Mine is the 22" barrel and I love it.  Weight has never bothered me.  And I have an Ace/bonesteel stock.   Folded up, it comes in at 30.5"



#170 gus7

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Posted 19 March 2014 - 11:54 PM

well 16'' vs. 20 some ...its all over range use ..over all use is 18'' a sweet spot short but good burn of powder ...http://www.thetrutha...y-and-accuracy/      http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/    i know of a few who think the longer is better ...yes/no with iron sights yes sight plane ...the longer the barrel the weight and balance of the weapons goes to the front .....slower to handle plus to carry weight goes up too ..... 



#171 Unknown Poster

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Posted 22 June 2014 - 08:58 PM

My CETME was accurate and I liked the rifle but I hated the charging handle so I sold it when it was on the ban list.

I registered my saigas.



#172 Jim Digriz

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:59 AM

every time i look at this post i go a pull out my .308 then sit there debating on if i should cut the barrel or not. i have read through all the post and i didnt find any references to any hard numbers such as someone who has used a chronograph. it just seems to me that you cant get a full burn on a 16" barrel. does anyone know what length barrel standard .308 is loaded to?

 

I've read in numerous places that 18 inches is sufficient for a full burn. But even if not, why should getting a full burn be the most important question in the decision? And why do you keep wanting to cut your barrel? For me, it was to obtain a lighter, more wieldy rifle. I haven't regretted it.



#173 Rhodes1968

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Posted 23 June 2014 - 07:15 PM

It also gives one an excuse to cut a new target crown and move a new FSB to the gas block so not only does it reduce weight but weight is moved rearward.

 

The barrel is also made more rigid, being shorter.

 

Makes sense but isnt a panacea, just another thing people do.


Had the Japanese got as far as India, Gandhi's theories of "passive resistance" would have floated down the Ganges River with his bayoneted, beheaded carcass. -- Mike Vanderboegh.

#174 brian33x51

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Posted 03 August 2017 - 04:49 PM

Well I'm resurrecting my own dead thread.  Can't believe I never replied to it.  I bought the 16" version for 289usd (found the original price tag a few weeks ago).  My friend at that time got the longer barreled version, probably the same price.  I haven't asked him about it since I frankly forgot he bought one too until I reread this thread.  We've both seen a couple of job changes in the interum.

 

I did a conversion using a tapco g2 trigger and a tapco saw pistol grip.  Originally I had put a tapco folder on it but pretty quickly replaced that with a traditional poly nato length stock, (maybe kvar?).

 

I have 4 mags total for it, original.  I bet I put less than 100rds through it, most likely crap indian 308 stuff that.  I would *love* to get some higher cap mags but since I live in Commierado I'll have to figure out how to wing it.


Edited by brian33x51, 03 August 2017 - 05:05 PM.





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