Tromix Insider Info thread....

[BobAsh 582]

So tonight Tony (and I) got a little buzzed and he spilled details of his new project to me. It's not shotgun-related, but since this is the busiest forum, I figured to post it here. It sounds crazy, but hear me out.

 

SUB-MOA KALISHNIKOV. Tony and I have been working out the details on the fabrication of a Tromix "Saiga" receiver for some time...but this is a pet project of his that our work has made possible.

 

This thing will be built around a Tromix AK receiver...all top-drawer shit, I assure you. Bull barrel w/ free-floating handguard, etc. But the kicker is this: AR-style gas system. Sounds crazy, but he explained it to me in detail and it's amazing. The reliability of an AK with the accuracy of an AR.

 

This thing is big..and it's coming in the new year.

 

That is all,

 

Bob

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I've long thought a bull barrel Kalashnikov would be excellent. Is 6.5 Grendel under consideration?

[pedal2alloy 206]

The 12 gauge version won't be that far behind....

[strawman 2]

Last thing in the world I would want is an AR gas system.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

Do you think Tony would be upset for your releasing this information prematurely for all to see, or was he going to spill the beans soon enough? I wouldn't want someone else taking his ideas before he has done what he wanted to do with them.

[Lagomorph 0]

Dito, Strawman. Thru constant, proper cleaning and good ammunition, i would say the ar comes really close it terms of reliability. And tho the ar gas system increases accuracy, and the tight tollerances also help a great deal, these are the reasons for failure in a harsh environment. The ak family's reliability is derived from the long stroke piston method and loose tollerances. But because the ar's gas system is static while firing, barrel "wobble" (harmonics) is not interfered with; while the ak has moving parts which bump into the barrel during "wobble" accuracy suffers, also stamped sheet metal recievers are the worst platform for a target rifle. You want an accuate ak look at a galil. the military channel did a series called "great military clashes" and one episode is ak vs. ar; there is great slo-motion video of an ak and ar being fired and what the camera captures is pretty eye opening. To sum up, the ar flexes a little, but the ak gets torqed out of proportion and the barrel flexes and the upper handguard is shaking and the cleaning rod on the underside of the barrel is bobbing up and down, looks kinda scary, but thats an ak. In terms of rifle, i have neither an ar or ak, tho i have owned both. my ar m-4 clone could easily hit a one foot square target at 200 yrds with iron sights, it was no where near the reliability of my romak ak tho. That ak ate everything without hickup or failure, didnt have to clean it, only put oil on it so it wouldnt rust, but it couldnt hit shit. I sold both, saved up, and sorta got the best of both worlds with an h&k sl8-1(which i have done (took me over 4 years and about $3500(and climbing)) a full g36 conversion). its damn reliable, only have trouble with shitty magazines, but i got that squared away. I dont have to clean it very much, i mainly just swab the bore once in a blue moon, the only problem is its not quite as accurate as my ar was. Accuracy is becoming more and more critical for me. Im not saying that we cant have both accuracy and reliablity, but there's always gonna be some trade off somewhere, its a fact of life. An ar does what it was made to do and an ak does what it was made to do, and it will probably always be like that. I hope the idea works and I want to see it work, and if it does work I'll be all over it in a heart beat. If i were building an ak i would look at short stroke gas pistons like the hk g36/sl8, hk-416, ar-18, and dragonov. Battle Rifle G3, I applaud your thinking. I love the 6.5 Grendel, only wish ammo wasnt so expensive or scarce (too lazy to form my own brass and experiment with loads, got enough reloading going on already). It is a great cartrige and out performs the .308 on several levels. It extracts the ut-most performance from an ar platform and since its made from a 7.62x39 case i cant see why its not the obvious choice . TO THE ACCURATE AK PROJECT!!! HERE HERE!!! (now im just being silly)

Edited September 15, 2006 by Lagomorph

[strawman 2]

There already is a very accurate AK, its called a PSL. Not trying to bash Tony, experimentation is the only way to achieve better products. However the one AR I had was accurate but finiky. It wouldnt shoot Wolf, and at first wouldnt fire more than one round at a time (extractor spring installed upside down). I sold it and bought an Arsenal SAM-5, it will eat anything and is capable of better accuracy than I am. BTW I was at Inter-Ordnance the other day (bought a Mosin PU sniper) and they showed me a sample of a rifle they should be importing in November. It was a .308 PSL with a new polymer foregrip that was super nice, also a German AK that was uber sweet. I am already saving up for the PSL, and would love to get the AK as well, it will be offered in 7.62 and .223.

Edited September 15, 2006 by strawman

[osprey21 5]

[BobAsh 582]

Tony OK'd the release of this info.

 

There is talk of other calibers.

 

I can't really give specifics, but the gas system sounds like a solid idea. It's more like a cross between the two guns than a straight AR gas system.

 

Strawman, Tromix AR's don't have those kind of problems. So many guys are making them these days, there is a lot of crap out there

 

I know there are many excellent quality AK's. What I'm talking about, however, is a 1/2" group match-grade quality rifle.

[NoAim 0]

Strawman, Tromix AR's don't have those kind of problems. So many guys are making them these days, there is a lot of crap out there

 

I know there are many excellent quality AK's. What I'm talking about, however, is a 1/2" group match-grade quality rifle.

 

Yep. The Wolf issue, well, it's basically way way underpowered ammo. Some rifles shoot it, others do not. And, let's just say that the polymer STILL sticks in the chamber making extraction of regular brass cases difficult in an AR.

 

But, aside from the "stay away from Wolf poly .223", a 3 of my gas-powered ARs are 100%. These are 20", 14.5", 10.5". The 20" and 10.5" do run supressed without fanfare.

 

My Arsenal SAM-7 and Romanian WASR-10 (don't get me started on that) were extremely picky about magazines used. Essentially I would get jams apprx. twice per competition. I did not attempt to fix.

 

Now this is just bulk info. But, Tromix ARs are VERY sweet. They are some of the nicest ARs I've ever seen. As always, I'm confident that Tony will do excellent work. And in the event that something was not completely dialled in, Tony will stand by his product and make it right.

[AegisDei 2]

I trust Tony. If he says he can create an AR/AK hybrid I believe him and will start saving now. All I need is his word and I'll put my faith in it. His reputation is such that he wouldn't produce a product that didn't perform to HIS standards, which are far higher than mine. I can't wait!

[BobAsh 582]

Well, I'm a mechanical engineer by profession. I've seen his design, and it solves the AR's carbon problem.

 

Tony is very reliable; if he says the gun will run, then it will run.

 

Pretty sweet...a TK-47 in .17 cal, or maybe .458 SoCom...

[beerslurpy 1]

Already been done. Its called the Sig 550.

 

Not that it would be a bad thing to have on the market. The real question is what price it is available at and how quickly he can churn them out.

 

There are already plenty of high end solutions that solve the reliability problems of the AR or the accuracy problems of the gas piston guns. The real question is whether someone can compete with the mid-end AKs on price, produce MOA accuracy and still be reliable.

 

I dont doubt Tony's abilities, but this will probably be something fairly revolutionary for it to not have been attempted before.

Edited September 15, 2006 by beerslurpy

[BobAsh 582]

Neither Tony or I have seen this approach before, so it probably hasn't been done "exactly like this".

Edited September 15, 2006 by BobAsh

[strawman 2]

If as you say its going to be sub MOA I would like to see it in 7.62X54R, or maybe .308. Plenty of cheap surplus ammo for both, in a caliber that is good for defense/hunting. There are enough poodle shooter chambered rifles around, I would do it in something with some nuts that is readily available. So for me no .17 , .223, or exotics like the .458, just my two cents.

[TacticalResponse 0]

"Some" Vepr's II's in .223 with the 20.5 inch barrels are capable of shooting 1/2 inch MOA with Match grade ammo. Try to find one! no mine is not for sale and yes it does shoot 1/2 MOA . Impossible to find ? almost. Rare yes. Tony's Idea of using the AR gas system helps solve the harmonic's problem between the piston and the barrel on an AK although he's also going to need a very good match barrel. Yes, I used to shoot competition benchrest so accuracy is very important to me in anytype of rifle including military. All of my militry rifles have been reworked to shoot under 1 inch MOA some much less. My sniper rifles well that's a whole other story.

[Integratedj 1]

Personally, we all buy AKs because of the issues involved with the AR gas system. As much as I want a Sub Moa AK, I also want it to be just as reliable as the original, Can't do that if it shits where it eats.

 

I would strongly recommend using a gas system similar to an SVD, or FAL instead. Even the new POF piston uppers for ARs are just as accurate as the standard ar system.

 

 

Shit, even the standard AK gas system will be fine, especially if there is a heavier barrel under it.

[GTwannabe 1]

Umm... why? There's already an accurate AK-esque gun (SVD). Why re-invet the wheel? Now if you wanted to make a super-accurized SVD, that would be sweet.

[BobAsh 582]

"Can't do that if it shits where it eats." ...as I said, he has solved that problem.

 

"...I would like to see it in 7.62X54R, or maybe .308"...I'm not sure what caliber the initial build will be, but I imagine it will be one of these.

 

"Why re-invet the wheel..?" This is a new system, with a ton of promise, from a very creative and prolific gunsmith. That makes me excited. If that's not interesting to you, well, to each his own.

 

"There is nothing new under the sun" (Ecclesiastes 1:1-3), however, creative people continue to reconfigure the weapons we use into new forms with new attributes. It's fun to be involved in the process, and I enjoy sharing it with my forum brethren. Scoff at your own peril, gentlemen- the smart money is on Tony.

[strawman 2]

It does have me intrigued to see the operating system, would be nice if its in .308 and you can use M-14 mags or PSL mags if in 54R. Thats usually the downfall of new designs, not being able to get mags easily, or at a decent price.

[BobAsh 582]

Tony hates mag problems as much as you and I do. I assure you it will take readily available mags.

 

So what's the consensus...we're considering the receiver materials: stainless steel or 4140? The 4140 HT is harder, but SS is sexier. As we all know, marketing is a huge part of manufacturing. Opinions?

[joelrod47 373]

Tony hates mag problems as much as you and I do. I assure you it will take readily available mags.

 

So what's the consensus...we're considering the receiver materials: stainless steel or 4140? The 4140 HT is harder, but SS is sexier. As we all know, marketing is a huge part of manufacturing. Opinions?

 

 

Stainless......... .308, .17, .223.......If Tony intends to build this best-of-both-worlds rifle-of-my-dreams, then I intend to buy it (or them)............. No scoffing from me.......Just put me on the list right now.

[twinhairdryers 2]

There already is a very accurate AK, its called a PSL. Not trying to bash Tony, experimentation is the only way to achieve better products. However the one AR I had was accurate but finiky. It wouldnt shoot Wolf, and at first wouldnt fire more than one round at a time (extractor spring installed upside down). I sold it and bought an Arsenal SAM-5, it will eat anything and is capable of better accuracy than I am. BTW I was at Inter-Ordnance the other day (bought a Mosin PU sniper) and they showed me a sample of a rifle they should be importing in November. It was a .308 PSL with a new polymer foregrip that was super nice, also a German AK that was uber sweet. I am already saving up for the PSL, and would love to get the AK as well, it will be offered in 7.62 and .223.

You must have had one abused dog of an AR. I put my 6750th round of Wolf through my Bushmaster today and have had 3 failures due to ammo. I replaced my firing pin at 4000 rounds with the titanium DPMS, just because it seemed like a good idea. My 16" 22 can shoot 3inch circles with iron sights at 50 yards shooting a round a second. My AK shoots 6" circles at 50 yards no matter what I do or what ammo I use. The AR needs to be cleaned every few hundred rounds, but breaking it open and running a patch through the barrel is about a minute ordeal. My AK I can shoot 600 rounds through it and clean it when I have nothing better to do. Never heard of an AR that didn't eat most of the 5.56 or 223 out there. lemmon law!!!!!!!!11

 

Tony hates mag problems as much as you and I do. I assure you it will take readily available mags.

 

So what's the consensus...we're considering the receiver materials: stainless steel or 4140? The 4140 HT is harder, but SS is sexier. As we all know, marketing is a huge part of manufacturing. Opinions?

 

4140 would take the abuse of an AK, and is easier to machine/drill/punch/etc. Anneal it and dip it and it looks as sexy as the SS. My 1cent. I love this idea, and if anyone can pulloff magic it would be Tony and you crazy ME's with AR and AK background that could support all the moves.

 

Tony hates mag problems as much as you and I do. I assure you it will take readily available mags.

 

So what's the consensus...we're considering the receiver materials: stainless steel or 4140? The 4140 HT is harder, but SS is sexier. As we all know, marketing is a huge part of manufacturing. Opinions?

 

4140 would take the abuse of an AK, and is easier to machine/drill/punch/etc. Anneal it and dip it and it looks as sexy as the SS. My 1cent. I love this idea, and if anyone can pulloff magic it would be Tony and you crazy ME's with AR and AK background that could support all the moves.

[glock_forty5 0]

Tony hates mag problems as much as you and I do. I assure you it will take readily available mags.

 

So what's the consensus...we're considering the receiver materials: stainless steel or 4140? The 4140 HT is harder, but SS is sexier. As we all know, marketing is a huge part of manufacturing. Opinions?

 

 

SS or 4140 is fine with me. Just make sure it takes HK G3 mags, they are solid and very cheap!

[TonyRumore 1,332]

Tactical Response - When you say your gun will do 1/2 MOA, is that an average for 10ea five shot groups at 100 yards all fired back to back, or an occasional 1/2 MOA 3 shot group? There is quite a bit of difference there.

 

One of my AR's was on the cover of Small Caliber News about a year ago and the gunwriter fired 300 rounds, ie 60ea five shot groups at 100 yards and he included all pulled shots, flyers, wind....every friggin shot down the tube and the average of all that was .4" Of course, a lot of groups were in the 1's and 2's to pull that off.

 

Tony

Edited September 16, 2006 by TonyRumore

[jman 0]

Tactical Response - When you say your gun will do 1/2 MOA, is that an average for 10ea five shot groups at 100 yards all fired back to back, or an occasional 1/2 MOA 3 shot group? There is quite a bit of difference there.

 

One of my AR's was on the cover of Small Caliber News about a year ago and the gunwriter fired 300 rounds, ie 60ea five shot groups at 100 yards and he included all pulled shots, flyers, wind....every friggin shot down the tube and the average of all that was .4" Of course, a lot of groups were in the 1's and 2's to pull that off.

 

Tony

 

Agreed!

 

The only AK I've seen which pulled a fairly reliable 1/2 MOA was the Galil Sniper.

Not to say that there are not some out there, but I've owned somewhere around 30 AK's and none could do 1/2 MOA.

Even though it's not really an AK, my SVD does come pretty close though.

[strawman 2]

You must have had one abused dog of an AR. I put my 6750th round of Wolf through my Bushmaster today and have had 3 failures due to ammo

 

It was a DPMS brand new from factory, because thats where I sent it to be fixed. I am sure the problems I had arent representative of all ARs, or all DPMS rifles for that matter, but I have heard other various complaints. To me thats the sign of a flawed design, and at the price they charge I am not rolling the dice again to hope I get a good one. For my money Ill stick with the proven design, even if my groups do open up a little, a chest shot is a chest shot, your still just as dead.

[6500rpm 670]

I say, don't knock it till you've seen it. I'd invision something like a Galil milled receiver with a screw on barrel mated to a varriation of the AR gas trap system. The only thing that throws that off in my mind is the possible choice of machining stainless and the equipment involved with mass producing, unless you have a good vendor? Only a hand full of members should even get involved with the whole AR's jamming conversation. Unless you use this in combat in shit conditions or shit enviroments, or your the type that's too lazy to clean a $1000 gun, I don't see AR's as being problematic. I have three AK based rifles and a 9mm and .223 AR, with a little TLC none have been bad guns (even my cheap ass WASR 10).

If Tony's willing to invest his time and money into this, hey it's his deal, no problem, I'm curious to see what he comes up with. My guess is that he's probably well enough connected with the shooting world to get feedback on what the market wants without relying on us, but being a guys guy that like mechanical things, I'd like to see the progress on this one. Pretty cool shit. If no one ever reinvented the wheel we'd still all be driving carbureted cars with chokes and manual transmissions-talk about performance problems.........

[strawman 2]

Only a hand full of members should even get involved with the whole AR's jamming conversation. Unless you use this in combat in shit conditions or shit enviroments, or your the type that's too lazy to clean a $1000 gun, I don't see AR's as being problematic.

 

Excuse me, do you know me? Do you know what kind of maintaince I perform on my weapons? If the answer is no, then dont tell me Im too lazy to clean my rifle properly. I think most people here clean thier rifles to a greater degree than the average soldier because we have better tools and more time to do it (sad fact).

 

As far as being in a SHTF situation or combat environment, no I havent been. I also would not want a rifle that cant perform at the range, let alone such a situation. I have alot of respect for Tony, but I also dont roll over and show my belly just because someone says something is going to work without my seeing it. Im not "knocking" it, but I am voiceing questions and thoughts in a forum, (novel idea huh) devoted to such weapons. Hopefully its a fine weapon, and works as advertised. I for one will wait and see, if an AR gas system is involved.

Edited September 16, 2006 by strawman

[BobAsh 582]

This project isn't really about filling a market niche...when Tony has a good idea, he goes with it.

 

6500, it's going to be a heavy-gage stamped receiver; we talked about a milled one, but the way we are doing it there would be no functional advantage. As far as vendors go, my shop has full CNC mill, CNC lathe, and CNC sheet metal capabilities. Also, you are correct about the AR "controversy".

 

Strawman, I wouldn't blame anyone for being sceptical. Hell, I'm the most sceptical fucker I know. As I said in the first post, it sounds crazy.

 

But I'm telling you it will work.