Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 We are currently speaking with a company about building a gas tube optic rail for the Saiga 12 , this would be similar to the Ultimak set up , they would probably sell for approx $95 bucks or so, we are trying to guage the intrest in this product before we pursue it any further. You constructive comments would be appreciated. Thank You Atlantic Firearms,llc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 We really need a top-mount rail that holds zero, imo, and I'd be very interested. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shooter2 5 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 (edited) We are currently speaking with a company about building a gas tube optic rail for the Saiga 12 , this would be similar to the Ultimak set up Interested, x2. Would this replace the gas tube, ala Ultimak? Would it be low enough to allow an Aimpoint to cowitness with the iron sights? I had an idea for a pic rail that attached via the rear sight dovetail and the front sight hole, and featured an integral ghost ring rear sight. It would be designed for use with the Russian or Krebs clamp-on front towers... something like that would be cool too. Edited October 8, 2006 by shooter2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DaGroaner 2 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'd be interested, especially if it can be worked out to sit at the same height as a K-Var KV-04 mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted October 8, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 (edited) We are looking at a duplicate of the ULTIMAK set up to work on the Saiga 12 , the Ultimak 's have been great, what has been your experience with them ? Pro's Con's ?? Edited October 8, 2006 by Atlantic Firearms.com Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 No experience at all. Sight system is a major weakness on the S12, IMO, so I'd definitely be interested. In fact, I'd say the only way I don't get one is me getting something else to replace the Kobra before your rail comes out. Kobra's ok, but it gets in the way as it sits now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I'd like to see a full length (17") picatinny rail. Possibly something that uses the side scope mount and hole in the top of the gas block as attachment points. Keeps things solid, easy to remove, and provides enough length to mount red dot and buis. I'm thinking that I saw a post from Krebs that they're working on something that's easily removable too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
surfmaster 5 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 I would absolutely be interested if it was secure and held an optic's zero. Many of us currently use the side mount but I think most people would rather have it centered and secured over a a firearm's receiver or the barrel/gas tube, like an AR-15. Since the receiver cover isn't a stable platform on a Saiga 12, looks like the gas tube would be a great option. Look forward to seeing prototypes of such a setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 Me too, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shooter2 5 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 the Ultimak 's have been great, what has been your experience with them ? Pro's Con's ?? I've run them on and off over the last several years; currently have two installed. The main advantage of the Ultimak is that it allows an optic to be mounted lower than any other system. This allows a more natural cheekweld on the stock, and with some systems (primarily tube-style red dots, Aimpoint and similar) is low enough to allow cowitnessing of the iron sights. It also doesn't need to be removed to allow use of left-folding stocks. The downsides are that it has to be removed if you want to clean through it and/or remove the lower HG for any reason, and once the Ultimak is reinstalled, the optic has to be re-zeroed. A secondary issue is heat conduction. Although this has no effect on most optics (even the cheap ones, IME), it can be quite uncomfortable if you grab the gun in the wrong spot after firing a couple mags back to back. Looking at the Saiga-12, I see several challenges to the development of an Ultimak-type rail system: 1) the gas tube is not easily removed, which would complicate installation by the end user. 2) the std handguard will not accommodate the barrel clamps used to retain the gas tube/rail and would require modification, again complicating the installation. 3) any gas-tube mounted system would not be usable on Saigas with the rib-type sights. 4) the iron sights sit much lower relative to the gas tube on a Saiga than on an AK rifle; I doubt a rail could be situated low enough to allow cowitnessing. My $.02. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted October 8, 2006 Report Share Posted October 8, 2006 To you Co witness guys. Its a damn shotgun. If the optic fails, use its glass alone as a frame for your target and it will work unless you are shooting slugs. Also, as stated above, the sights are low, and cowitnessing will never be an option. If you can't co Witness on a standard AK with an ultimak setup, there is no way you can ever do it with the S12. As far as the product. Great idea. I was asking Ultimak about this when the S12 first got here. Glad some one is finally going to do it, as it is a great setup. Personally, I do not need one, as I have the Predator rail on mine, and the guys with the Halo forends will obviously not need it either. Something to take into consideration when building these things. Pricing is right on the unit itself, and if there wasn't competition by Halo for a complete forend, that isn't that much more money, I think it would do really well. Thing is though, I think a lot of the people that this targets, will just save up the extra cash and buy the Halo unit. This could be really cool though for guys that are staying with the unconverted Saigas, and make a great little hunting setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
glock_forty5 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 I am interested in at least one. G45 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Genocide 0 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Very interested. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
buckmeister 11 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 I like my UltiMak. As stated by others, it allows co-witnessing. As far as the heat problem, will the Galil style handguards fit around it? If so, burning oneself would be eliminated. I would be interested in one for the S-12. buckmeister Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shooter2 5 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 If you can't co Witness on a standard AK with an ultimak setup Ahh, but you CAN... and that's exactly what sets the Ultimak apart from other AK optic mounts. Granted, you have to choose your optic wisely and put it in as low a mount as possible. It won't work with an EOTech or Trijicon Reflex, but Aimpoints and clones, the BSA "beercan" style dot sights and most other standard tube-type red dots should all be good to go in that regard. I was asking Ultimak about this when the S12 first got here. Glad some one is finally going to do it, as it is a great setup.I, too, inquired about a Saiga-12 system and Ultimak said "maybe in a year or two" - they were busy developing their Mini-14 and M-1 Carbine systems at the time. That's been a few years ago now, so I'm guessing they either didn't perceive the demand, or decided the project wasn't feasible given the design challenges I stated in my earlier post. I have the Predator rail on mine, and the guys with the Halo forends will obviously not need it either. Something to take into consideration when building these things. Yep, and a gas tube design would cut out all the rib-sighted Saigas, too - that's a big chunk of the market. if there wasn't competition by Halo for a complete forend, that isn't that much more money, I think it would do really well. Thing is though, I think a lot of the people that this targets, will just save up the extra cash and buy the Halo unit. That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. I have no need for a quad rail system - it adds too much weight and bulk, and I have nothing to mount on the side or bottom rails. All I'm looking for is a decent mount that sits the optic as low as possible, and I bet I'm not alone in this regard. The market is there for the right solution. Further, the HALO costs two and a half times the projected cost of the Atlantic rail... that doesn't put 'em in the same price ballpark, IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 Hello How 'bout one for the .308? As far as I can tell, there is absolutely no competition in the marketplace for such an item. I just received my Halo for the 12, and although it is a bit bulky, it appears to be an excellent forward mount for a CQB optic such as Eotech. I would most definately be interested in a top rail for the .308, especially if it ran back over the receiver enough to mount optics. Guido2 in Houston Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted October 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 The whole idea of the rail was not to compete with the Halo product but offer a optic rail for less than $100 bucks, not all our clients want or need a $300 rail system. It will cost a chunk of money to bring this product out so at this time we are not making any promises or pre sale orders etc, we are only gauging intrest and asking for input. Atlantic Firearms,llc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 If you can't co Witness on a standard AK with an ultimak setup Ahh, but you CAN... and that's exactly what sets the Ultimak apart from other AK optic mounts. Granted, you have to choose your optic wisely and put it in as low a mount as possible. It won't work with an EOTech or Trijicon Reflex, but Aimpoints and clones, the BSA "beercan" style dot sights and most other standard tube-type red dots should all be good to go in that regard. I was asking Ultimak about this when the S12 first got here. Glad some one is finally going to do it, as it is a great setup.I, too, inquired about a Saiga-12 system and Ultimak said "maybe in a year or two" - they were busy developing their Mini-14 and M-1 Carbine systems at the time. That's been a few years ago now, so I'm guessing they either didn't perceive the demand, or decided the project wasn't feasible given the design challenges I stated in my earlier post. I have the Predator rail on mine, and the guys with the Halo forends will obviously not need it either. Something to take into consideration when building these things. Yep, and a gas tube design would cut out all the rib-sighted Saigas, too - that's a big chunk of the market. if there wasn't competition by Halo for a complete forend, that isn't that much more money, I think it would do really well. Thing is though, I think a lot of the people that this targets, will just save up the extra cash and buy the Halo unit.That's an apples-to-oranges comparison. I have no need for a quad rail system - it adds too much weight and bulk, and I have nothing to mount on the side or bottom rails. All I'm looking for is a decent mount that sits the optic as low as possible, and I bet I'm not alone in this regard. The market is there for the right solution. Further, the HALO costs two and a half times the projected cost of the Atlantic rail... that doesn't put 'em in the same price ballpark, IMO. Not all optics cowitness on an AK with the Ultimak. I have one, and out of everything I have tried on it, the Aimpoit, Trijicon reflex, and the Eotech did not co witness. The aimpoint could work in a very half assed way, but nothing that is fast to aquire. Non of them Cowitness anywhere close to what setup on an AR does. I still think its a good idea, but seriously, there are so many arm chair warriors on the internt that don't shoot comp or anything else, that will simply save up a little more for the uber tacticool Halo setup over the Ultimak style setup. trust me, of this type of person, the Halo is not that much more expensive to save up for. remember, for a lot of guys, it is all about looks over weight concern. I just thik it will be a smaller market than many think, especially if it requires the owner to have to press off the gas block in order to put on on. Lot of work that will make many reconsider, and again go with the Halo for their rail solution. They will see it as Halo = x amount. Ultimak style = x amount + gunsmithing fee+possible refinish to correct scratches from gunsmithing work= damn near the price of the halo, if not more depending on gunsmith used. Now if it is drop in on the other hand, it has a much better chance of taking off. I still say make the hell out of them though. The more Saiga people we can cater to, the better. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted October 9, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 One of the issues we are looking at is the ease of installation, if we can't make it fairly simple to install we will not pursure the build.The only way it would be successful would be a close to drop in style of installation. Adding gunsmithing fees onto the base $95 price would make it to expensive Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shooter2 5 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 (edited) The only way it would be successful would be a close to drop in style of installation. Adding gunsmithing fees onto the base $95 price would make it to expensive Exactly. And the design of the S-12 gas tube area doesn't seem to lend itself to an Ultimak-style "drop in" installation. Perhaps something that clamps rigidly to the gas block and receiver, but bridges the existing gas tube? Or as I previously suggested, a rail that mounts in place of the iron sights but includes integral replacements, sorta like the top half only of the HALO system? It will be interesting to see the results of your feasibility study. I think the market is there for a solution like this, at that price point; the only remaining question is "can it be done?" Edited October 9, 2006 by shooter2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted October 9, 2006 Report Share Posted October 9, 2006 I'm interested! I have decided not to spend any more on my S 12 until I see either ten round mags available, or the price of eight rounders come down some. If not I might just sell the thing cuz I can't carry it like this! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted October 10, 2006 Report Share Posted October 10, 2006 please bring the point of zero closer to the bore line. the ultimak is too high to promise true use of open sights with any but specific optics. I want to see my sights/bore if the optic is dead. this is the one thing I can recommend to be improved upon, that is needed with a tactical shotgun. you HAVE to see that front bead with the sights, if the optic doesnt work or have a charged battery... this type of sight/mount is supposed to deliver unimpeded sight picture, so why not make it so, instead of "if". the front sight could be a globe, a large cross, or even just a glowing dot. no matter. it should allow for a clear sight picture, if the optic is on or not. this is #1 in the book for this type of sight, on this chambering of firearm, if you ask me. which I know you have not. with that said, who cares if it needs gunsmith installation or not.....as long as it is solid and delivers the proper results. you HAVE to see your true front bead on anything that chambers buckshot......just my two or three cents.... thank you for participating in our little corner of the gun world...... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted October 11, 2006 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 I doubt you will be able to co witness unless you use the Krebs sights or somthing else like that , the Saiga 12 basic bead sight is to low . The tech dept is supposed to let us know details on mounting etc later on this week but they are shooting for a easy installation and not replacing the gas tube. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted October 11, 2006 Report Share Posted October 11, 2006 (edited) ^^^^I hate to beat a dead horse, but all the above could be done with a 17" rail cut to hug the top of the gun as low as possible with mounting points at the gas block and side rail. Easy to install, fairly light weight, and any red dot, buis set up that works on a picatinny rail mounted AR(m4) will work and co-witness on this set up. more or less a slightly lower version of whats pictured below with 17" rail that extends to the gas block. ' Edited October 11, 2006 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 The whole idea of the rail was not to compete with the Halo product but offer a optic rail for less than $100 bucks, not all our clients want or need a $300 rail system. It will cost a chunk of money to bring this product out so at this time we are not making any promises or pre sale orders etc, we are only gauging intrest and asking for input.Atlantic Firearms,llc Don't get me wrong I LOVE my HALO. The ULTImak style tube would be much lighter. more what i'm looking for to do to my 2nd S12 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
surfmaster 5 Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I would certainly be interested in a Picatinny rail mounted over the gas tube. I like most Saiga 12 owners have the side mount that positions the mounting rail over the receiver. What I don't like about this set up is that my red dot scope feels like it's too close to my face, even if the scope is mounted at the end of the rail, which reduces my peripheral vision. The gas tube mounted rail would allow my optic to be mounted father from my face, enhancing my peripheral vision for faster target acquisition. I wonder whether a no-gunsmithing version of the rail could be mounted securely enough versus a welded-on version. Any updates on this project? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zradix 0 Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!!I want! I want! I want!!! Oh yeah, I'd like to have one please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
twinhairdryers 2 Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 I'd buy one if it didn't take a smith to install it. I've tried 4 side mount rails and not one of them is actually close to the centerline of the bore. I thinks causes inaccuracy of the optic, no matter the quality of the optic itself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocketman320 0 Posted January 20, 2007 Report Share Posted January 20, 2007 (edited) Here is an alternatvie. Tony mounted a Command Arms LHV47 lower guard om my S12 - they did it could not be done but Tony proved everyone wrong. The LHV47 also comes with an top guard as well that will fit an S12 with an integrated solid top mount with ventilation. http://www.commandarms.com/categories.asp?cID=17 This system is lighter and less expensive than the HALO (Halo is a fine product) and offers a very AK look - Tantal sells them on his site. There is never an issue with the poly LHV47 - it is an excellent alternative. Here is an example of the lower guard: Edited January 20, 2007 by rocketman320 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Atlantic Firearms.com 170 Posted January 21, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2007 Guys the Ultimak rail has been built and is currently being tested at the factory, we expect to have a few prototypes late this month, at that point we will send a few out to Tromix for evaluation etc, these should sell for around $80 -$90 bucks . Once these are good to go we will be offering these to Saiga members at a discounted price . Atlantic Firearms, llc Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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