Suggestions for a .223 handgun?

[Verson 0]

Any suggestions of a way to mod a rifle, or build a .223 handgun?

 

Its a bit wild, but after seeiing and having one in the game "Fallout" I've always wanted one.

 

In the game, the gun was a orginal weapon modified with tender loving care by a former owner. I could always get a pic and post it, if you want to see it.

[chips 0]

im not sure if you could make one the way it is in the game, although it would be pretty cool.

 

i think the best way to go about building a .223 pistol, would be to buy a regular AR-15 lower, but get one of the shorty pistol uppers for it.

 

[chips 0]

here's a nice one for sale...

 

 

http://www.gunbroker.com/auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=19773965

[Verson 0]

wow, holy crap, and I though AP 9's looked good.

 

Wish I won the Lotto, then all the awesome guns would be mine. mawhahahaha

[KySoldier 2]

I don't think you can convert a rifle down to a pistol. There are rules about what can constitute a pistol too...

 

You can't have a forward grip on it (thanks to the '94 ban) and it can't weigh more than 50oz either (also the '94 ban). This is why the preban AR pistols have little handles or forends on them and the postban ones don't.

 

Check out bushmaster's website for their pistols. You can get the model with the fluted barrel (like chips posted) and attach a light to it via an adapter they sale....then you can hold onto the flashlight like a forend...but it could still be construed as illegal if you get into trouble with it.

 

My friend wants to get one and have the parts around to make it into a rifle (a stock and 16" UPPER). I'm not sure if there is a law against that (it might be interpretted as a pistol still in which case they could weigh it and say it's more than 50oz, but I don't know if a stock is a part of the gun or just an accessory)

[emclean 0]

i don't beleve that you can convert a rifle to a handgun, but you can build one from a striped recever. a stock on a AR recever would make it a rifle (as i understand it), but if there is buffer tube made for pistles. i will post a site that shows a pistle build later from home.

[KySoldier 2]

Exactly, you can build a pistol using a receiver as long as it is not registerd as a rifle already. Adding a stock later would make it a rifle and therefore require a 16in barrel...just like if you take a Glock pistol and add a stock to it (yes, they make stocks) then you must also add a 16in barrel or register it as a short barreled rifle.

 

But I think the advantage of buying the pistol is that you can put a stock and barrel on it, shoot it all day as a rifle, and then put it back to its original (small) condition as a pistol....where as a rifle is a rifle and must remain so, unable to be reduced shorter than 26" without registering it.

 

You would definitely be swimming neck deep in the "grey area" of interpretation on that one.

[Bvamp 604]

actually, there was a special law stating that you cannot take an AR rifle and remake it into an AR pistol. buried of course, so im not searing for it. I read it though, just have to trust me on that one. its the same law banning the make or remake of krink short barrels LEO or mil only, and only a federal armorer can do that to those i believe. the dude from indyarms would know the law in question.

[G O B 3,516]

Alse buried in BS regulations it says that a pistol cannot have a magazine that is not contained in the pistol grip. I think this is just to stop pistol kits for AK or ar15 or ar7. I ran across that some time ago while researching pistol kits for my ar-7.

Should have bought it 20 years ago when i first saw it.

 

G O B

[G O B 3,516]

Was re reading BS regulations. Prohibition on pistols with magazines not in the handgrip is only if pistol is a semiauto version of an automatic weapon. My AR-7 is ok, but no AK or ar15 versions.

 

G O B

[Bvamp 604]

see also, tec-9, tec-22, mp5 mp45, etc etc etc....BUT there IS a specific law that says specifically that AR receivers cannot be modified or cut or whatever,anything, to become AR pistols, and this law is written past a krinkov law. i did see it, im tellin you......

[emclean 0]

this is from a web sigth i found a while ago.

Following is a discussion of how a person can build and own a compact AR-15 in the form of an AR-15 pistol, Short Barreled Rifle (SBR), or Any Other Weapon (AOW) and some of the advantages and disadvantages of each.  A good reference to review before reading any further is  Pre OR Post Ban:  More than a serial number on AR15.com.

In review of the material at the link above, weapons built before the Clinton Ban came into effect had characteristics that are now prohibited by the Crime bill by the definitions listed.  These definitions have created challenges for AR-15 owners that need to be addressed in order to make a post Crime Bill legal AR-15 pistol.

 

The POST BAN AR-15 Pistol

 

 

 

The key to building a post ban AR-15 pistol is to find a way around the crime bill, then buy yourself a new stripped AR-15 lower and build the pistol in a way that the crime bill does not apply to your pistol.  To do this, it is essential to understand the definition of a Semi Automatic Assault Pistol as the crime bill defines it:

 

A Semi-Auto pistol with an ability to accept a detachable magazine can not have two (2) or more of the following features:

 

an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip.

a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender,  flash suppressor, forward handgrip or silencer.

a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned.

a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded. a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm.

Over the years I have thought of three ways around these rules.

 

Make non-semi auto pistol 

 

The AR-15 and M-16 rifle system uses a gas tube to allow it's semi-auto or full-auto operation.  The easiest way to make a non-semiauto AR-15 pistol is to simply remove the gas tube.  After removing the gas tube I like to tap the opening inside the gas block where the gas tube was removed and thread in an allen headed set screw.  This in itself creates a charging handle operated bolt action.  This can be further improved through milling the upper receiver and adding a bolt handle that is mounted to the AR-15 bolt carrier.  In this design, you have about the fastest bolt action in the world as you pull the bolt back to eject the spent cartridge and let it fly forward to load the next cartridge.  If the bolt handle is added to the left side (for right handed shooters) this will also assist the shooter for the shooting hand can remain on the pistol grip for firing.

 

Another option which I have seen done is to build a pump action upper.  DPMS makes a pump action upper and I know that these were also built by some skilled do-it-yourselfers but I am going to postpone discussion on these uppers to a later time.  If you have information on these uppers or have built one, I welcome you to E-mail me and I will add the info here!

 

Make the magazine non-removable 

 

The way this has been accomplished by the major manufactures ihas been to either build a lower that was never designed to have a removable magazine, as with the FAB 10, or make a modified lower that had a magazine pinned and welded in place as in the case of the OA-96.  As with the OA-96, an individual could pin and/or weld a magazine to the lower. In either of these solutions, the weapon would be loaded by pivoting the upper open and loading from inside the action using stripper clips.  I am also working on some drawings of a modified flattop upper receiver that would incorporate a small back up iron sight as an ARMS #40 with the flattop in front of the rear sight would be milled out to allow for loading of the internal magazine with stripper clips.  This mechanism combined with some type of protective cover would create an appealing option in my humble opinion.

 

Another option that I have considered is a replacement of the Mag-Release button with a nut.  It WAS my understanding that the ATF considered a removable magazine as one that can be removed without tools.  I have read that the ATF may be interpreting the crime bill to indicate that the magazine must be something of a more permanent form so I encourage you to contact the ATF for clarification before you try that route!  I will write the ATF myself on this when I get a chance to try and have them clarify just what the ATF defines to be a DETACHABLE MAGAZINE!

 

Make a single shot AUTO UNLOADER! 

 

DPMS makes a single shot AR-15 lower.  If this lower was used in conjunction with a pistol upper, the single shot lower should be exempt from the crime bill as given there is no magazine it can not be a semi auto.  Where this configuration is interesting to me is in the aspect that the pistol would auto eject the spent cartridge after every round creating a very fast single shot pistol.  PLEASE NOTE, I am working to write the ATF to confirm that they consider a single shot lower to NOT be a semi-auto.  I assume this would be the case but I believe in writing to the ATF before proceeding.

 

Build a AR pistol if the weight was under 50 ozs. The limit is without sights or magazine. You could do this a couple of different ways. The shorter the barrel the lighter. Use plastic/carbon fiber upper and/or lower receivers. Or use a flat top upper, short barrel, no front sight, and drill/cut lightening holes in the lower like the Olympic OA-98 pistol. So, these are the ways that I know of to get a pistol AR-15 in these days. 

 

like most things in the '94 ASW there is some wigle room formed by the S.O.B.'s lack knolwage. there are limits on the "bad" featurs a pistol can have, just like the asalt rifle. the site quoated above showa step by step directions on how to make am AR pistol from a striped recever.

here is the sight.

http://www.quarterbore.com/nfa/sbr-aow-pistol.html

[Bvamp 604]

if you DO know AR's and find a good AR pistol for sale.....and know its good....buy it...there shouldnt be many in the public circulation now....

[Bvamp 604]

back to the topic....Verson...look at savage arms. they make a GREAT .223 bolt action pistol. if you want to spend a little more, ther eis an out of production remington bolt action pistol with the long throw on it that is very nice. also look at the T/C contender barrels. you buy a T/C, sure it is single shot, but you can buy any chambered barrel for it for like 150-250 bucks.....17 rimfire to anything you call them for....or do you want to put 80000 rounds into a deer at 20 feet? now how do you have a reason for that? I mean, I can run with a flock in the woods, but im not you. you are telling me that you can fire on a herd of deer, without seeing a single house for an hour, and legally take all shot deer legally? come on now....self defense, correct? well, an AR pistol would be all and good for that, but you cam just take the stock off of a PREBAN AR....14" barrel with no stock? thats not small enough huh? what do you do anyway verson? in no way is this type of weapon practical to anyone, hence the laws they put in place.....at least they got that one right....theres a GOOD ban. give me a break on the rest of them........

Edited June 25, 2004 by Bvamp

[Bvamp 604]

you guys with the preban post ban shit amaze me....POST ban alloys are DIFFERENT than PREBAN alloys....noone seems to know this in here....it makes a HUGE difference

[Bvamp 604]

The POST BAN AR-15 Pistol

 

 

 

The key to building a post ban AR-15 pistol is to find a way around the crime bill, then buy yourself a new stripped AR-15 lower and build the pistol in a way that the crime bill does not apply to your pistol. To do this,

 

first make your buffer enclosed, second, make sure your barrel is taxed. if you can do both, you are in there. noone will tax a 223 AR barrel for you that is less than 12". even the cops dont have them, and if they DO its the swat team....the ATF makes these now. that is all who can. i dont think you can even make a AR pistol thats been converted to a carbine BACK to a pistol now.....

 

and if you DO find a AR lower and convert it illegally, let me shoot out of it first. I dont want it to come apart in MY face. the new AR's are made of that yellow'ish b.s. alloy that is more aluminum than steel/titanium. it will malfunction/crack. you are asking to kill yourself or the person standing next to you when you shoot it. dont do it with a post ban. the waepon just cant take it. they wont let you cut a preban reciever btw.........not for one of those. ive looked into it, and there is NO paperwork to do it. so dont. even if its cool and you can hide it. you are playing with your life, as well as the one next to you when you shoot it. sorry guys....

Edited June 25, 2004 by Bvamp

[emclean 0]

[Bvamp 604]

there is a SPECIALLY WRITTEN LAW against AR and AK pistols....find that one and you have the bull...........thats not it

[emclean 0]

ok where is it?

[Bvamp 604]

ah man.........im not collecting the 125 an hour i should get for that.....someone here KNOWS the law, YOU post it, will ya? Indyarms, where are you???????

[emclean 0]

are you refering to the colt AR-15 being banned by name?

[Verson 0]

well it took a while, but I found the pic of the gun I was talking about. While some of the AR pistols are cool as heck, this is more of what I was thinking about.

 

while this is not a real gun, I think it would be fun to make one to look like it. Any suggestions on how to go about that? And I know there are tons of laws, I am just talking about the subject in a hyp. manner so dont worry I'm not gonna run out to Home Depot and make some wako pipegun.

[Bigfoot Wallace 0]

If there is a law against ar pistols then how can bushmaster sell the carbon 15 pistol?

 

http://www.bushmaster.com/shopping/carbon15/az-c15p21.asp

Edited August 19, 2004 by Bigfoot Wallace

[PM2790 0]

Professional Ordnance was purchased by Bushmaster. Bushmaster standardized the internal parts of the Pro-Ord lineup and are now selling both pistols and rifles. Olympic Arms still sells their pistol, the OA-93, with the unique gas system. The frame and grip are 'lightened' to be less than 50 oz. Neither the Bushy or Oly have threaded muzzles and they are sold with 10 rd mags. Of course, with the proper paperwork, LEO letterhead, one can purchase new pistols with all the 'evil' features.

I have one of the pre'Bushmaster, Professional Ordinance pistols. Put a 120 rd. drum in it and it looks absolutely stupid and cool at the same time. It is not what I would call a practical firearm but I notice I always have a grin when shooting.

When you purchase an AR lower, make sure that it is listed in the FFL's books as a pistol. You can then build it as a rifle or an appropriate pistol according to your whim. If I were in the market for one, I would lean to the Olympic because of the pigtail gas system that eliminates the buffer stub sticking out the back. For more help with build questions, check out AR15.COM.

[Bigfoot Wallace 0]

thanks

[cscharlie 107]

Verson, now that the ban has died, there are a bunch of them being built. Email me if you want more info.