SaltPeter 6 Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 I can't seem to find the post, but Makc listed how to change mags with and without his hold open button. This is my procedure: I modified the safety so it would hold the bolt open. So you're shooting and the hammer snaps on an empty chamber (it's hard to count ammo under high stress). With the right hand's fore and middle fingers, grab the charging handle and yank it back till it stops. With the thumb of the same hand, engage the safety. The bolt is now locked back. With the left hand, pull out the empty mag and drop it. Then put in a full mag. Put your left hand back on the forearm and drop the safety with the right hand. put your right hand back on the pistol grip and your ready to rock. I looked at the photos on this site of the hold-open button but it appears that it will only fit the civilian models. On the LEO version, the pistol grip and the trigger guard are right where the button would go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted May 28, 2003 Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 SaltPeter With the right hand's fore and middle fingers, grab the charging handle and yank it back till it stops With the thumb of the same hand, engage the safety. The bolt is now locked back. With the left hand, pull out the empty mag and drop it. Then put in a full mag. Why are you changing hands? I thought that when you modified the safety so it would hold the bolt open - you would not have to change hands... At least I do not with BHO... You only need to change hands if you do not have either one of the 2 mods... I lose too much time if I change hands... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted May 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 28, 2003 I see your point. But I don't know how else to do it. Lock the bolt back then change mag all with the right hand? Or try to lock the bolt back with the left hand? Either way seems awkward. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jackhammer 0 Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 it WOULD be nice if the damm bolt stayed back when the mag was empty! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted May 29, 2003 Author Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 OK, so you're changing magazines with your right hand. I just can't get used to that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 jackhammer it WOULD be nice if the damm bolt stayed back when the mag was empty!Totally agree!!! May be IZMASH will do it one day.... SaltPeter OK, so you're changing magazines with your right hand. I just can't get used to that. Yep! And I got very used to it! I actually got very used to even loading the mag with the bolt closed! I found out at the match that i can do it as fast... just took practice.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jackhammer 0 Posted May 29, 2003 Report Share Posted May 29, 2003 Loading the mags in isnt hard if there's only 4 in it(BOLT CLOSED) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 it is the same with 5 - if you look at it - there is almost enough spase for the 6-th shell... enough room for all 5 to go down... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
asintaderoche 0 Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 the way i reload or change mag: combat shooting competition 1. i always count my shot to target, chamber loaded and 8 round mag inserted was consumed in shooting position, i removed empty mag 2. lower weapon to belly or belt level (the butt should be pressed on my belly to help hold the weapon) 3. rack the bolt open with my right hand as my left hand grab a fresh 8 round mag 4. turn the weapon sideway horizontal 5. insert fresh mag with the front mag hook portion first then the rear will follow 6. release the bolt by racking it first before quick releasing ( sometimes the spring is not fully compressed) 7. new round will chamber and the weapon is again hot 8. naturally aim the weapon to continue shooting i always practiced this, it's awkward i have to keep holding the bolt until i inserted the magazine and i really had to look at what i'm doing. i have tried it blind folded just to master my movements.....practice with dummy rounds Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jackhammer 0 Posted May 30, 2003 Report Share Posted May 30, 2003 Can you do that on the move??? prob not. how are you holding the gun in the? air by the bolt handle? sounds a bit hard to do moving!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
PvtPyle 0 Posted May 31, 2003 Report Share Posted May 31, 2003 Just about any tactical school will tell you, YOU RELOAD FROM BEHIND COVER. Thats because people tend to stop and focus on the fine motor skills they need to do a reload, ANY RELOAD. It also gives you a chance to pick up anything that you may drop during the process. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
asintaderoche 0 Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 sorry jackhammer, but i just do it in sport shooting where the target don't shoot back. to rack the bolt one handedly i have to place the butt stock to my belly, thigh or the center of stomach. i'm using my thumb hooking the thing while my other fingers hold the receiver, kinda have a big hands.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ak01q 0 Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 SaltPeter, I am interested, do you use the Saiga12 while OTJ? I got the impression you do because you have mentioned several times about being "under high stress" AK01Q Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CheeseHead 0 Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Well I got my Saiga 12 this weekend. I will get to shoot it for the first time tonight after work. As far as installing a clip with 5 shells in it, I have no problem now. It took me 5 min to do it the frist time but once I figured it out I can install the clip just as fast and easily as an empty. I hold the forearm in my left hand, put the clip in wth my right. I guess I put the clip in almost straight up and down and rock it back just a 1/4 inch at the end of the movment. 2 quick questions: 1) The site http://www.izhmash.ru/eng/product/saiga12.shtml lists a 2 shot clip. Anyone have a source on these? I would need them for duck hunting. 2) Any way to make the saftey easier to slide? Mine takes a bit of force and is not good if I want to get a quick shot from a safe carry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 dont they teach you guys to reload when you can while theres still one in the chamber? tactical reload? or is that considered unsafe now because of some idiot that didnt know his gun's trigger pull was too light? i just cant see taking that big boy out to actually shoot back with and not have the cool enough to know you didnt shoot more than 5 or 6 outta that 8 clip. to hell with that last one or two...id much rather change my mag with one in the chamber and not have to put the damn thing down or even unshoulder it to cock it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jackhammer 0 Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Well Its hard to get a full mag in when the bolts closed, you have a good point tho either way is a bit hard (I just wish they still came with a bolt catch factory)I think Im gunna save for a usas12 (Who said it was a dumbell? They prob never held one!!!!I got too yesterday,I saw a friend's YA they are a bit heavy(10-12lbs)but it wasnt that bad!!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted June 2, 2003 Report Share Posted June 2, 2003 Cheesehead, as far as the safetly lever goes, you can bend it out a bit, and it will be much easier to "flick" on or off. I have had to do this on both my AK and my Saiga. It's very nice now, not too loose, still makes a click, but much easier to slide down the reciever to off. Hope that helps you. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted June 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) AK01q, Yes I did buy my Saiga 12C for on duty use. I just recently started carrying it and haven't had a chance to deploy it on a call. I do go to a local gun range and do "action shotgun" matches, which are basically informal drills. The drills consist of shooting at pepper poppers while on the move or from behind cover, and every course has enough targets that a reload is inevitable. And of course, the drills are timed. So when you're trying to beat your friends score, and you're missing targets, you get frustrated and your stress level gets high. That's when you start fumbling. Whether using a Saiga or a tube fed shotgun, it's common to drop ammo or have trouble getting the damn clip in! But even that doesn't compare to the adrenilin rush of pointing a gun at a person-- that's high stress. Edited June 3, 2003 by SaltPeter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted June 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 (edited) Bvamp, A tactical reload sounds great, and with pistols and rifles, it's not a bad idea. But with the Saiga 12, it's just easier (for me, so far) to run it dry and reload with the bolt locked open. Using the method I described above, I don't take the weapon off my shoulder. If worse comes to worse during a gunfight, I'd throw the thing to my feet and draw my pistol. When it comes to training, I know of none available to the American police officer for the Saiga 12, so I'm pretty much training myself. Edited June 3, 2003 by SaltPeter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
asintaderoche 0 Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 i find it easier to load with an open bolt, the 8 round mag can take 9 i have tried it. the prob i get is when releasing the bolt its sometimes go halfway home. so i have to help it chamber a round by push.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted June 3, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 I have had that problem too but I've noticed that it happens less often when you load the mag with 9 rounds. But what happens is the top round catches on the top of the chamber and won't go in without a little help. You have to push it back down with your thumb so it will chamber. Note: I've only had this happen with Remington ammo and not with Winchester.' Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 Saltpeter, congrats on a great purchase, and I'm sure it will hold up well during your job. As far as reloads go, a lot of people complain about loading a full mag into the shotgun with the bolt closed. With some practice, it is not that difficult. You just have to find the proper angle to compress the rounds down a bit, and it will go in the shotgun just fine, using the rock and lock technique. Then, all you have to do is pull the bolt back and you are ready to rock and roll. I've tried it this way, and it seems a lot faster than actually locking the bolt back and then doing the reload. Try it, I think after some practice you will get the hang of it. Again, great purchase, and glad to see some LEO's finally carrying a superior weapon. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 SaltPeter one small piece of advice for your competition shooting- i find for myself to knock everything else out of my head and just focus on what i am doing. you are probably losing seconds thinking about the other guy i would bet. ive been shooting since i was 5, and i have found that the more i focus on putting my rounds on target and just keeping the situation at hand in the back of my mind, i fly. controlling the recoil enough to stay on multiple targets is really the one thing you should be thinking about. and as for real life situations, if you dont secure the situation with one magazine out of the saiga, you are probably dead and wont need to draw your sidearm anyway...8 3" 12ers is a lot of firepower. asintaderoche NEVER OVERLOAD YOUR MAGS! you will overstress the spring and cause malfunctions. if ANYthing load one less, like the 30 round M16 mags will jam sometimes if you load them to full cap. in a fight, that means you are dead. ask the marines from vietnam about that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigpond73 0 Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 As an edited note to my post above, I am speaking of course, only of my five round mags. There is that extra space in the mag for just such compression for reloading with the bolt closed. I can almost get six rounds in, but again, it wouldn't facilitate me being able to reload with a closed bolt. I would assume that is the same problem you may be running into with your 8 round mags. Sure, you can get the ninth round in there, but again, with a closed bolt, it would probably be next to impossible to reload with the bolt closed. I would suggest just loading it with 8 rounds, and again, practicing reloading with the bolt closed. Also, I am sure you are aware of this, and I know, under stress, you may not count how many rounds you have fired, but it would make it much faster, if on the last round, you reloaded, having the need to not rack the bolt. Just my .02, and hope it helps. Mike Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted June 3, 2003 Report Share Posted June 3, 2003 SaltPeter one other thing: ever been told to imagine your left index finger points to your target? you dont actually point your finger, but you replace your index finger in your mind with the barrel and point to your targets. try it for a few mags if you find yourself missing once in a while. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaltPeter 6 Posted June 6, 2003 Author Report Share Posted June 6, 2003 (edited) and as for real life situations, if you dont secure the situation with one magazine out of the saiga, you are probably dead and wont need to draw your sidearm anyway...8 3" 12ers is a lot of firepower. You may be right, Bvamp, but listen to this. I live and work in Gulfport, Florida, and across the east border of the city (49 street) is St. Petersburg. As you may or may not remember a few years ago (I think it was 1996--it made national news), there was a riot in South St. Pete as a result of an officer killing a young black drug dealer. I wasn't even living in this part of the country at that time, but I have talked to several officers that were involved in quelling the riot. I've also been shown videos of the riot, one that very few, if any, officers were prepared for. I remember seeing buildings burning, police cruisers and news vans on fire, and hordes of people trashing everything. Every agency in the county responded to help the St. Pete Police, who entered the riot with batons and shields. They soon had to retreat because they were met with bottles, rocks, molotov cocktails, pistol and rifle fire. There were actually two riots within a week of each other. The first when the black male got killed, and the second when it was announced that the officer who killed him would not be diciplined. To the officers responding to the civil unrest, the second riot was the worst. The bad guys were actually setting up ambushes for the cops. I remember the words of one officer when he told me about lying as flat as he could behind a curb because he was under fire. He said that the whole experience was just like war. In fact, as a Gulf War veteran, he said that the resistance that day was more violent than any he experienced in Kuwait. He said that reloading your pistol, rifle, or shotgun was common for the officers, who often had to lay down cover fire so they could move around and rescue innocent people caught up in the mayhem. Due to the couragous efforts of several hundred officers working for several agencies in Pinellas County, no officers died in the events, although some were wounded. Since then the tension is still high in South St. Petersburg. The police seem to be at odds with the black community there and everyone is wondering if another boiling point is coming. So in my situation, I want to be able to reload my Saiga quickly, because if the shit hits the fan in S. St. Pete, I know I gotta go there. Edited June 6, 2003 by SaltPeter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 Wow, I had no idea so much excitement was so nearby. I just moved from palm harbor to spring hill and Ive been to st pete a lot of times for automotive type stuff and I had no idea there had been a riot there. Why is the black community in St Pete so easy inflame? I am not a sociologist or anything but I am curious about the dynamics of riot formation I guess. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ForGreatJustice 1 Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 I don't know why St. Pete in particular should have a police relations problem. I do know that the tensions probably stem from sources beyond simply the questionable shooting of a suspect. That kind of thing happens a lot in other communities, and riots as a result are rare. More often then not, there are preexisting social conditions involving relations between the police and the citizens that get brought to a boiling point by various catalysts. Riots are scary, and thankfully rare. IF anyone ever looks at you funny for owning a fighting rifle, just remember that you're not crazy. It could come in handy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beerslurpy 1 Posted September 26, 2004 Report Share Posted September 26, 2004 I'm not terribly worried about riots in spring hill, but always better to have a gun and not need it than need it and not have one. The time to go gun shopping is not when the riot has already started. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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