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It is easy to see where everyone's mind is today and yesterday. Can't say as I blame you since it is beginning to look a lot like Christmas in the magazine category. Hat's off to Kevin and all involved. Which brings me to my question.

 

We all have to feed our Saiga's something. What do you feed yours for practice, target and defense. All the same? Different? Why? Do you choose #1 buckshot since it has the greatest wound potential? Or do you choose #00 Buckshot because it is the traditional round? Or have you filled your magazine with slugs? Again, what is your reasoning?

 

Where is the most inexpensive place to purchase reliable ammunition in 12 gauge? Is Sellier & Bellot as reliable as others? Does price matter on your defense loads? Just a few questions I wanted to run by you before I start loading up my new magazines. :unsure: Thanks for your time.

 

Jeff

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I only use OO buck or slugs.I dont hunt or shoot trap so i practice with what i would use it for.I have used Wolf,Federal,Remington,S&B all with good resaults.I been lucky lately and have found very good prices on slugs and buckshot from local retail stores discontinuing ammo.I just got 250rds of Remington 1oz slugs for $1.50 for a box of 5 :lolol: S&B is good stuff.I just recieved a shitload of Nobel Sport Law Enforcement 00buckshot from Aim surplus for a good price,,i think Sportsman Guide has it also.Its 12 pellets instead of the normal 9 for around $4.00 box of ten,$87.50 for 250rds.

Edited by Pointer
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Hmm, I'm prejudiced against S&B myself (even though I have a few hundred rounds of it), because the buckshot contained within it is not cushoned with a filler material (Grexd).

 

I can't believe uncushioned buckshot balls banging & mashing into each other at the moment of ignition being too good for terminal performance. :unsure:

 

I go for the Remington Magnum "00" buckshot myself, or the Federal "00" as long as they say it's buffered. :up:

 

I can't imagine having 14 grains of buffering material blown into the wound along with the original load of buckshot having a good, NON-infection inducing survival rate. :eek:

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most of the time i just use whetever is cheapest. I stick to 2.75" most of the time. I dont see much need for 3"...for what i do anyways. The federal and winchester stuff from walmart, in the 15 round value packs is great, and not too terribly expensive. Ive had really good success with SPEER lawman buckshot. I did a post a while back with pics of what this stuff can do. Its pretty much fantastic....all that being said...

 

shoot safe and shoot often

 

HOOP

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This is a quote from the following link. Do you suppose that the difference between #1 & #00 would be negligible in a real life scenario? I know I wouldn't want an ass full of either one, but all the same would one perform better?

"Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances. A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma."

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

 

I appreciate the replys and especially the notes on where to find the best prices on ammo. Our Walmart isn't closing anything out so I continue the search for best performance and price. Thank you again for your responses.

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This is a quote from the following link. Do you suppose that the difference between #1 & #00 would be negligible in a real life scenario? I know I wouldn't want an ass full of either one, but all the same would one perform better?

 

I prefer 8- or 9-pellet reduced recoil (see also "Law Enforcement" or "Tactical") 00 buck loads. They pattern tighter and kick less than about anything else out there, and I like the lower pellet count; remember that every projectile that leaves the barrel has a little tiny lawyer attached... fewer is better from that standpoint, especially if there are innocents downrange.

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This is a quote from the following link. Do you suppose that the difference between #1 & #00 would be negligible in a real life scenario? I know I wouldn't want an ass full of either one, but all the same would one perform better?

 

I prefer 8- or 9-pellet reduced recoil (see also "Law Enforcement" or "Tactical") 00 buck loads. They pattern tighter and kick less than about anything else out there, and I like the lower pellet count; remember that every projectile that leaves the barrel has a little tiny lawyer attached... fewer is better from that standpoint, especially if there are innocents downrange.

Interesting link...

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot20.htm

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I avoid "reduced recoil" loads for cycling sake. I try to keep it 2 3/4" only as I feel that a 3" is just overkill for two legged predators. Plus I like the faster follow up shots. I go with mainly 00 buck, but they gel tests of #1 I have seen show that it is pretty nasty when it hits (enterance looks like hamburger with wound channels coming out of it, where as the 00, just looks like it got shot 9 times). I cannot find very many #1 loads, so I stick with 00. I just got some Wolf 2 3/4" slugs to try out, but I got a shotgun for a reason, for buckshot.

 

I did try some Hornady TAP I have had in my gun for over a year. It works really well. Only problem is they priced it rediculously high now (about a dollar a shot). It was only about $3 per 5 when I bought it at a gun show. They changed the box to black and added the letters "FPD" (for personal defense) and now they want a crapload for it. Screw that. I bought several boxes of full power Federal 9 pellet 00 buck for about $2 per 5 at the last gun show. I will use that instead.

Edited by epsylum
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for casual or whatever shooting, I load whatever. my s12 eats it all up, even rusted up mixed rounds when it is 4F outside (I have an old post about that one).

 

as for defense, I load 3 rounds of 3" winchester super X 15 pellet 00 buck, followed by two remington 3" sluggers. normally, I would load a handload sabot I make, but I dont have any at the moment, so the two slugs replace them in the mag. I also keep the gun with the bolt closed, and the mag on the rack next to the gun, not clipped to it.

 

I will tell you why I use these rounds, too. one, its common, and fairly consistant for my needs. two, I have a thing where I shoot snowmen every winter, and these rounds perform the best. and three, 9 pellet and 12 pellet, SB WOLF whatever, isnt loaded to the max, from what I can tell. the winchester 3" 15 pellet loads go off like a cannon round, and Im not interested in spending more on something that gives me 100 fps more, when its already up there. 9 pellet would probably work and all, but I just feel that 15 pellet, well, why screw around? if i need to kill some shithead crook, why not go for the gold? sheer trauma. the slugs/sabots are only there to crack someone's skull or sternum if they try to rob my ass with a jacket on.

 

note: my saiga12 appears to be an EAA 22" that has been cut down to 19" either by the importer or at the factory. it is marked for full choke, but instaed is 18.5" and has what resembles an imp. cylinder muzzle. I also have been shooting almost my entire life, and have fired a great many rounds/guns, and I know that in my particular case, a sabot will not hurt my particular gun, if I dont go and shoot 500 of them down the barrel. Because I have done so much shooting, I can also stitch you up real nice, with whatever chambering, or round, I see fit to use. a "n00b" really should practice with them. the recoil is about to the max on a shotgun, unless you go with the old 3 1/2" 12 load or a ten gauge, you wont find something that recoils stiffer, in my book, unless it is a handload, which I usually have several on hand anyhow. I will say that my HD mag loading will kill your shoulder, whatever your s12 setup is. most people think Im shooting off fireworks when I practice a mag, and have bought another box to "cycle" my ammo, which I do once or twice a year, just to play it safe. not like you should have to.

 

I hope my plain hands on experience might help you make your choice. good luck. make sure you test anything you think you may need to kill your fellow man with, first. make sure it isnt too much round for you.

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For defense I use 2.75" Federal Power-Shok #4 Buck. It's 27 pellets I believe and the heaviest I want to go. Anything larger than that, specifically slugs, I run the risk of cutting through a wall and into someone else's condo.

 

For everyday goodtimes, I'll use Winchester "Nitro 27" bird-shot, it's like 5$ a box of 25. Other than that, it's Winchester Super-X slug's or 00 buckshot.

 

When I have extra money for ammunition or something special to demolish, it's Hornady SST Slug's or TAP 00 buckshot.

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For defense I use 2.75" Federal Power-Shok #4 Buck. It's 27 pellets I believe and the heaviest I want to go. Anything larger than that, specifically slugs, I run the risk of cutting through a wall and into someone else's condo.

 

For everyday goodtimes, I'll use Winchester "Nitro 27" bird-shot, it's like 5$ a box of 25. Other than that, it's Winchester Super-X slug's or 00 buckshot.

 

When I have extra money for ammunition or something special to demolish, it's Hornady SST Slug's or TAP 00 buckshot.

 

My prefered HD firearm is a M4gery.

 

For shotguns, my advice is #4 buck if overpenetration is an issue, 00 if it is not. Research I'd read was that #4 was the minimum size that got the magical 12 inch penetration into ballistic gel, but it's been awhile. Don't see the need for 3 inch cannon shells for HD situations. I see those for hunting where you would be taking longer shots and shotgun hunting is mandated which is common populated areas. For HD/SD, if you are talking long shots you should be talking rifle anyways, and that scenario should be rare.

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I don't have any experience shooting people sized animals with a shotgun, but I have shot a shit load of racoon size animals. I can tell you, without any doubt in my mind, #1 buck does a much better job then 00 or 000 buck. They seem to be able to take a a couple of hits from the larger shot and keep going, but when they get hit by a pile of the smaller shot, it does them in immediately.

 

Personally, shooting someone with a few 32ACP soft lead round balls does seem like a great idea either. Maybe if you hit them with 10ea or so. I'd rather go with a slug. Just my gut feeling.

 

Tony

Edited by TonyRumore
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Unfortunately my HD weapon is'nt the Saiga-12. I have a Remington 870 to fill that roll. I use Federal reduced recoil 00 buck.

 

Don't feel bad, I'm in the same boat as you (with the exception that mine is a Mossberg 590a1)

 

Mostly #1 buck, 00 on the sidesaddle

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My prefered HD firearm is a M4gery.

 

For shotguns, my advice is #4 buck if overpenetration is an issue, 00 if it is not. Research I'd read was that #4 was the minimum size that got the magical 12 inch penetration into ballistic gel, but it's been awhile. Don't see the need for 3 inch cannon shells for HD situations. I see those for hunting where you would be taking longer shots and shotgun hunting is mandated which is common populated areas. For HD/SD, if you are talking long shots you should be talking rifle anyways, and that scenario should be rare.

 

So was that a summary of what I just said? I use #4 because it won't cut through walls. Or did you not even read what I said? I didn't say I used slugs or 00 for HD, those are for the field. Never even brought up taking long shots..

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The first crack/meth-head that breaks into my house (threatening my life), will be eating a 3in Steel BB Shot first (out of an 18in straight cylinder) followed up by as many as eight more 3in 00 buck.... I personally like the 3in for my HD needs but do understand why a 2.75 would be more practical. I live up in the moutains though and can't even see my neighbors from my house..... so over penetration is of no concern. Also, I find it tough to find anything stocked around here but 00 buck, slugs, and all the varieties of other small shot. No mix of other Buck shot sizes....

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My prefered HD firearm is a M4gery.

 

For shotguns, my advice is #4 buck if overpenetration is an issue, 00 if it is not. Research I'd read was that #4 was the minimum size that got the magical 12 inch penetration into ballistic gel, but it's been awhile. Don't see the need for 3 inch cannon shells for HD situations. I see those for hunting where you would be taking longer shots and shotgun hunting is mandated which is common populated areas. For HD/SD, if you are talking long shots you should be talking rifle anyways, and that scenario should be rare.

 

So was that a summary of what I just said? I use #4 because it won't cut through walls. Or did you not even read what I said? I didn't say I used slugs or 00 for HD, those are for the field. Never even brought up taking long shots..

 

I'm sorry you thought I was talking to you Kyle. My entry was directed to 1911, you know, the author of the thread and the guy with the question.

 

However, if you feel I plagerized your post, or I hurt your feelings, or confused you, I can see if a moderator will remove my post and I'll send it via IM ...... :haha:

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I ruined a white tail with the same 15 pellet loads I use in my HD mag. the shot was from about the same distance as indoors, under 8 yards, 3/4 head on, in the woods in deep cover, and it absolutely ruined half the meat on the deer. the deer also did not take the rest of its step, but kind of jerked away from me, and plopped to the ground and died. a few pellets went completely through, and if I recall, we found about ten of them in the meat. the main area of shot placement looked like it went through a half-assed meat grinder, really. a slug would defintately be better in a lot of cases, but you have to aim that sucker dead-on. 9 pellet and 12 pellet buck, well, I dunno bout that. 15 should work, I know that much.

 

I agree with tony in the respect that you should DEFIANTELY load slugs behind ANYTIHNG you choose for HD in a shotgun, if not exclusively.

 

I guess it all depnds on things like if you have children in the other room, neighbors in close proximity, etc etc.

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My prefered HD firearm is a M4gery.

 

For shotguns, my advice is #4 buck if overpenetration is an issue, 00 if it is not. Research I'd read was that #4 was the minimum size that got the magical 12 inch penetration into ballistic gel, but it's been awhile. Don't see the need for 3 inch cannon shells for HD situations. I see those for hunting where you would be taking longer shots and shotgun hunting is mandated which is common populated areas. For HD/SD, if you are talking long shots you should be talking rifle anyways, and that scenario should be rare.

 

So was that a summary of what I just said? I use #4 because it won't cut through walls. Or did you not even read what I said? I didn't say I used slugs or 00 for HD, those are for the field. Never even brought up taking long shots..

 

I'm sorry you thought I was talking to you Kyle. My entry was directed to 1911, you know, the author of the thread and the guy with the question.

 

However, if you feel I plagerized your post, or I hurt your feelings, or confused you, I can see if a moderator will remove my post and I'll send it via IM ...... :haha:

 

 

Alright, I was just confused because you quoted me and said the same thing.

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My info may be a bit out of date, but there was an FBI study some years back that concluded #4 buck was the best compromise between pellet size, pellet count, downrange perfomance (velocity and power), penetration on flesh, chance of ricochet or overpenetration, pattern spread, % hit potential, and stopping power. IF you had to limit yourself to one shell. As with all compromises, it is not optimal in any area, but pretty good in all. My Department switched to #4 buck in a 2 /34" shell based on this. We haven't had cause to use it on a human yet, but in our informal tests, qualification shoots, and putting down animals ranging from oppossum size to deer (often) it seems to perform really well.

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Ive fired heated and carbonised brad points down mine a few times. seems to not hurt the barrel, but I dont have much of a choke on mine. it probably would hurt a choked saiga.

 

flechettes were experimental, and outside 40mm and artillery, it seems like it isnt worthwhile to me. but Ive only fired a handful of them out of mine.

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Well, since everyone is bragging, my HD gun at the moment is a Mossberg 500 Persuader loaded with Winchester 00 Magnums.

 

I went with the 00 for in home because I figured that 1) if I have to use it in the house, the guy would probably be right on the end of the barrel when I shot and he would get the full load in the chest, and 2) I would still have range if I had to move outside to an open space.

 

If I swith over to the Saiga for my HD gun, I will probably have two different types of loads in seperate mags. for in house and outside.

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