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Another *&$#ing compliance question


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Sorry to beat a dead horse guys, but I just want to make sure I'm clear on this, especially with the political climate right now.

 

I just got my 16" .308 a couple of weeks ago and just yesterday got my hi-cap mags I ordered back in June (I wasn't in any hurry to get the rifle until the 20 rounders were closer to my doorstep!) I want to keep this in the sporter configuration, but still use the hi-caps. I know there's another thread on this, but I couldn't tell what the final word was, especially since I think the number us US parts in the new mags changed at some point.

 

I sent BRG3 an email about getting a quasi-p-grip stock and foreend. Does that count as one US part, or two? On top of that, what I'm seeing a lot of in the other threads is that the gas piston is an easy part to change out and relatively inexpensive. With those two changes, how many parts would I still need to change in order to be complaint with an *unconverted* rifle using the 20 rounders? Keep in mind, I'm not super-mechanical, but I don't mind tinkering around a bit until I figure something out... I just don't want to go cutting and grinding on things unless I absolutely have to.

 

By the way, just let me say that you guys are some of the most informative, friendly, and helpful dudes on any gun board I've read regularly. I probably would never have bought a Saiga if it hadn't been for all the stuff I was able to learn here. Rock on...

 

-chris

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Let me start by saying i love your avatar!!!

 

So, heres the deal. With the new hi cap US mags you got, those count as 3 compliance parts (body, folower, floorplate). Now, you still need to replace one more part to make your rifle compliant with those hi caps. Could either be a handguard, gas piston, or stock.. like you said. If i were you, i would go for the stock and handguard from BRG3. He makes some awesome stuff. The stock and hand guard will could as 2 compliance parts...keeping the BATF from beating your door down

Edited by hoop762
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Let me start by saying i love your avatar!!!

 

So, heres the deal. With the new hi cap US mags you got, those count as 3 compliance parts (body, folower, floorplate). Now, you still need to replace one more part to make your rifle compliant with those hi caps. Could either be a handguard, gas piston, or stock.. like you said. If i were you, i would go for the stock and handguard from BRG3. He makes some awesome stuff. The stock and hand guard will could as 2 compliance parts...keeping the BATF from beating your door down

Correct me if I'm wrong, but think you need to replace 4 parts to keep you at 10 foreign ones on the Saiga rifle assuming no PG conversion. The FBMG mags only have 2 US parts (believe the followers are foreign). so you may need to juggle things a bit differently.

Edited by tritium
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Boy oh boy - once an idea takes seed, it sticks forever.

 

To stay good with 922r, you need to focus on the IMPORTED countable parts only - counting us-made parts can send you to the wrong place.

 

Stock Saiga 308 without mag has the following countable IMPORTED parts:

barrel

receiver

trunions

buttstock

handguards (one part)

bolt carrier

bolt

gas piston

3 fire control parts (hammer, disconnector, trigger)

 

So, 11 countable parts.

 

So, you need to REPLACE one of the IMPORTED parts with a us part to get into complience.

 

I suggest the gas piston unless you really want a new buttstock.

 

Or, what I really recommend is doing a pg conversion which eliminates the buttstock and 3 fcg parts (assuming you use us-made fcg parts).

 

 

Just remember to count the imported parts and you will be just fine.

 

Oh, and the buttstock and pistol grip are two countable parts - unless there is not free-standing pistol grip, then its one.

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Thanks OSOK--think we are saying the same thing now, just in a different way. You have to know how many countable parts your gun has so you can swap out the proper number for compliance.

Edited by tritium
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OSOK,

 

Is that list the same for all of the Saiga weapons (rifles and shotguns)?

 

Where can I find just the list of all counted parts? I found it at one time and now I can't seem to find it? I'm helping a friend convert his WASR-10 w/ the nasty thumbhole stock.

 

Thanks,

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Stock Saiga 308 without mag has the following countable IMPORTED parts:

barrel

receiver

trunions

buttstock

handguards (one part)

bolt carrier

bolt

gas piston

3 fire control parts (hammer, disconnector, trigger)

 

So, 11 countable parts.

You forgot the "Magazine Body", "Floorplate", and "Follower" . . . so the total is 14 countable parts.

 

FBMG mags would replace the magazine body and floorplate. Down to 12, so he needs to swap two more parts. Replacing both the existing buttstock and handguard with a US-made stock and handguard, lowers the imported parts count to 10 . . .

 

Note that if the buttstock has a distinct pistol grip (such as on a drag stock , etc.), than it counts as two parts (search for the ATF letter I posted on this matter sever months ago). However, as O.S.O.K. correctly points out, this doesn't help except to give you an extra and uncounted US-made part.

 

BATF letter: http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html

 

Parts count different on AK rifle and Saiga shotgun.

I do not believe this particular letter from ATF is correct. It looks like they forgot the trunion.

 

Larry

Edited by LESchwartz
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Stock Saiga 308 without mag has the following countable IMPORTED parts:

barrel

receiver

trunions

buttstock

handguards (one part)

bolt carrier

bolt

gas piston

3 fire control parts (hammer, disconnector, trigger)

 

So, 11 countable parts.

You forgot the "Magazine Body", "Floorplate", and "Follower" . . . so the total is 14 countable parts.

 

FBMG mags would replace the magazine body and floorplate. Down to 12, so he needs to swap two more parts. Replacing both the existing buttstock and handguard with a US-made stock and handguard, lowers the imported parts count to 10 . . .

 

Note that if the buttstock has a distinct pistol grip (such as on a drag stock , etc.), than it counts as two parts (search for the ATF letter I posted on this matter sever months ago). However, as O.S.O.K. correctly points out, this doesn't help except to give you an extra and uncounted US-made part.

 

BATF letter: http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/page12.html

 

Parts count different on AK rifle and Saiga shotgun.

I do not believe this particular letter from ATF is correct. It looks like they forgot the trunion.

 

Larry

 

Well - if you look at my reply - I stated "with out mag" - but you are right in that it was confusing to a newbie - the mag follower does need to be taken into consideration if it's imported. I thought they decided to use a us-made follower? That's why I didn't mention it...

 

I think we just confused the shit out of him again :D

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Well - if you look at my reply - I stated "with out mag" - but you are right in that it was confusing to a newbie - the mag follower does need to be taken into consideration if it's imported. I thought they decided to use a us-made follower? That's why I didn't mention it...

 

I think we just confused the shit out of him again :D

Your right, I didn't see the "with out mag" at first. But two points: First, it seems to be "traditional" to include the mag with when enumerating the parts count. Second, since the FBMG mags are only 2/3 US-made, it also seemed prudent to start with the full 14 parts.

 

But, I think we are both just trying to say the same thing in different ways . . .

 

Larry

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From the discussion are you saying that someone may have comitted an ATF violation by having the FBMG hicap mags in his/her posession if they own a non modified stock SAIGA also? The scenario as I understand it is if you bought and received the new FBMG hicap mags unless you have installed the parts on the rifle required to meet the US parts count you are in technical violation ??

Edited by 24kshooter
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From the discussion are you saying that someone may have comitted an ATF violation by having the FBMG hicap mags in his/her posession if they own a non modified stock SAIGA also? The scenario as I understand it is if you bought and received the new FBMG hicap mags unless you have installed the parts on the rifle required to meet the US parts count you are in technical violation ??

Since there has never been an actual 922® conviction, there is no way to know for sure. However, that doesn't mean there never will be, nor does it mean that 922® will never be enforced against individuals . . .

 

However, folks who purchase FBMG mags should keep these as far from any of non-compliant Saigas as possible, since ATF uses the term "possessed with" to describe how close is too close in the case of mags and a rifle (see: http://www.soupbowl.kalashnikov.guns.ru/Page10.html, 2nd letter, 2nd page). Most of the "AK kit builder discussion boards" recommend that builders exercise caution in this area.

 

IMHO and YMMV . . .

 

Larry

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Thanks for all the replies, guys. I think it makes sense to me now. I guess it's helpful to remember that the countable imported parts is what matters, not the number of US parts.

 

I've sent BRG3 a couple of emails about doing the stock but I haven't heard back from him yet. I know he's backed up, but I'm not sure my emails are even going through. Has anyone else talked to him lately?

 

-chris

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Thanks for all the replies, guys. I think it makes sense to me now. I guess it's helpful to remember that the countable imported parts is what matters, not the number of US parts.

 

I've sent BRG3 a couple of emails about doing the stock but I haven't heard back from him yet. I know he's backed up, but I'm not sure my emails are even going through. Has anyone else talked to him lately?

 

-chris

 

holy crap im more confused than ever!so to install my saiga folding stock that counts as ? i dont know how many parts now,i got to replace with U.S. complyent parts in gun and keep my FMBG mags some where else ?damn i need a drink! :ded:

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holy crap im more confused than ever!so to install my saiga folding stock that counts as ? i dont know how many parts now,i got to replace with U.S. complyent parts in gun and keep my FMBG mags some where else ?damn i need a drink! :ded:

 

Best to try sell that Russian folding stock. Because it is counted as 2 Russian parts, when you install it, it adds and additional foreign part rather that subtracting one.

 

Did you ever complain to gunbroker about that jerk. I see he is now offering 7.62x39s with the folding stock and 3 high cap mags, all of which are against the law to put on a Saiga without converting it.

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holy crap im more confused than ever!so to install my saiga folding stock that counts as ? i dont know how many parts now,i got to replace with U.S. complyent parts in gun and keep my FMBG mags some where else ?damn i need a drink! :ded:

It counts as two parts -- the stock and pistol grip. If the folder is imported, you will start with 15 imported parts and should need to swap out 5 parts. If the folder is US-made, then installing it should leave you with 3 more parts to swap. It really is pretty easy once you get your head around the fact that you're concerned with the number of imported parts which remain.

 

Larry

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holy crap im more confused than ever!so to install my saiga folding stock that counts as ? i dont know how many parts now,i got to replace with U.S. complyent parts in gun and keep my FMBG mags some where else ?damn i need a drink! :ded:

 

Best to try sell that Russian folding stock. Because it is counted as 2 Russian parts, when you install it, it adds and additional foreign part rather that subtracting one.

 

Did you ever complain to gunbroker about that jerk. I see he is now offering 7.62x39s with the folding stock and 3 high cap mags, all of which are against the law to put on a Saiga without converting it.

 

 

nope! let her ride!im not gonna complain to him,why? i look at it this way,the longer he pull,s this crap, the harder its gonna be on him when they drop the hammer.im just gonna get,em coverted.and write it up as a learning experince

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holy crap im more confused than ever!so to install my saiga folding stock that counts as ? i dont know how many parts now,i got to replace with U.S. complyent parts in gun and keep my FMBG mags some where else ?damn i need a drink! :ded:

It counts as two parts -- the stock and pistol grip. If the folder is imported, you will start with 15 imported parts and should need to swap out 5 parts. If the folder is US-made, then installing it should leave you with 3 more parts to swap. It really is pretty easy once you get your head around the fact that you're concerned with the number of imported parts which remain.

I should note that a folder on an AK derivative is "not importable" -- "not importable" is the phrase used by ATF to identify configurations which require 10-or-less parts . . . so installing the folder is just as much of a violation as the FBMG mags.

 

So if it's an imported folder, you will need to swap 5 parts -- 14 imported parts in the OEM S-308, plus the imported pistol grip build into the folder (14 + 1 = 15, and 15 - 10 = 5). My choice would be the gas piston, hammer & disconnector and mag floorplate and mag follower (Tromix) on your imported mags. Note that FBMG mags also have two US-made parts, so you are also legal using these. Just make sure that all your S-308 mags contain two US-made parts or you will be in violation.

 

If its a US-made folder, you will need to swap 4 (14 - 10 = 4). Since the folder swaps out the buttstock, that leaves you with 3 more parts. Since using a US-made folder will likely require moving the trigger, my choice here would the FCG (trigger, hammer & disconnector). Then you could use any mag at any time without being concerned about the parts content. This choice is cheaper and results in better ergonomics (IMHO) -- so if you're up for the trigger conversion, you might even consider selling a imported folder to and use the proceeds for a US-made folder and FCG.

 

YMMV.

 

Larry

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holy crap im more confused than ever!so to install my saiga folding stock that counts as ? i dont know how many parts now,i got to replace with U.S. complyent parts in gun and keep my FMBG mags some where else ?damn i need a drink! :ded:

It counts as two parts -- the stock and pistol grip. If the folder is imported, you will start with 15 imported parts and should need to swap out 5 parts. If the folder is US-made, then installing it should leave you with 3 more parts to swap. It really is pretty easy once you get your head around the fact that you're concerned with the number of imported parts which remain.

I should note that a folder on an AK derivative is "not importable" -- "not importable" is the phrase used by ATF to identify configurations which require 10-or-less parts . . . so installing the folder is just as much of a violation as the FBMG mags.

 

So if it's an imported folder, you will need to swap 5 parts -- 14 imported parts in the OEM S-308, plus the imported pistol grip build into the folder (14 + 1 = 15, and 15 - 10 = 5). My choice would be the gas piston, hammer & disconnector and mag floorplate and mag follower (Tromix) on your imported mags. Note that FBMG mags also have two US-made parts, so you are also legal using these. Just make sure that all your S-308 mags contain two US-made parts or you will be in violation.

 

If its a US-made folder, you will need to swap 4 (14 - 10 = 4). Since the folder swaps out the buttstock, that leaves you with 3 more parts. Since using a US-made folder will likely require moving the trigger, my choice here would the FCG (trigger, hammer & disconnector). Then you could use any mag at any time without being concerned about the parts content. This choice is cheaper and results in better ergonomics (IMHO) -- so if you're up for the trigger conversion, you might even consider selling a imported folder to and use the proceeds for a US-made folder and FCG.

 

YMMV.

 

Larry

 

 

or just send them toTROMIX AND LET THEM DO A CONVERTION ON BOTH!

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  • 3 weeks later...

Is the gas piston a universal AK part? Same size for all variants?

308,7.62x39 ect,ect.

 

It would be senseless to order a part and just cause problems if it doesn't work.

 

And does midway carry them? I have a large wish list going and I may as well finish it up if possible.

 

I got my S 308 from CDNN way back when they were selling for $230.00 and was sure my factory mags would be my only choice and never concerned myself with the 922R crap before............

I ordered one of the T6 SHotgun conversion kits that has multiple choices ,,,i should be able to modify one of the adaptors to the S-308 and try not to try moving the FCG....you see I have this issue with taking things apart but not getting them back together..... :unsure:

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Is the gas piston a universal AK part? Same size for all variants?

308,7.62x39 ect,ect.

No, the gas piston is not universal between all AK variants. However, the "typical" gas piston sold by most vendors will fit about 80% of the AK variants, including your S-308.

 

Larry

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Just so you know, I had BRG3 make a quasi-p-grip stock for my S-20 (white oak), and it is fantastic! I love it so much I am not going to convert myS-20,.but keep it as a sporter, save my pennies and get a S-12 to make into nasty full-strength zombie repellant!

 

Dangerman

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Is "trigger housing" the same as trigger guard ? That shold be moderatly easy to fabricate, It seems it is different thanreciever ,which would be the folded steel plate also housing the trigger.

No. ATF's parts list for the AK's does not have a "trigger housing". If you're familiar with SKS rifles, these do have a "trigger housing".

 

Larry

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Ok from a replacement part, the gas piston can be replaced. In a .308 Saiga: that needs to be a 7.62 or a 5.45 piston?

 

Also if I am wanting to install a traditional handguard setup what gas tube would I need to get (understand that it is not a compliance part): 7.62 or 5.45?

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Is the gas piston a universal AK part? Same size for all variants?

308,7.62x39 ect,ect.

No, the gas piston is not universal between all AK variants. However, the "typical" gas piston sold by most vendors will fit about 80% of the AK variants, including your S-308.

Let me try this again . . . if it's listed as an "AK gas piston", it will fit. If it's listed for "AMD-65 gas piston", "Kinkov gas piston", etc. then it will be too short. The same is true of gas tubes.

 

Larry

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