BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Due to the incredible interest in hi-cap mags for Saiga 308s, and a good do-it-yourself market, I plan to offer a kit for you to convert your Saiga 308s to take mildly modified (will work in original) extremely inexpensive G3 mags. This will include an adaptor, mounting hardware, instructions, and one converted mag to use as a guide for future ones, and will require about as much skill as a Saiga 223 Conversion to P-grip and hi-cap, though a bit more work on that level of skill. The adaptors will be machined out of solid barstock and will also strengthen the receiver. Unlike every other hi-cap Saiga 308 conversion I have seen, my system does not remove any material from the trunion, the part of the rifle that locks the bolt and sustains the extremely high chamber pressure forces. While others have modified the trunion and not met catastrophe, I believe it is better to retain the full strength of the trunion and modify other parts of the rifle. This is aimed to promote innovation, initiative, and skill among gun owners. Many a time I have found myself facing high costs for custom work where I could have done most of the work myself, save for a small part. My purpose here is to offer a product that utilizes my tooling and training inasmuch as I can offer something previously unavailable, but also makes the most use of the buyer's skill and ideas to minimize costs and provide the customer with a rewarding project experience. I am also able to offer such products without the customer having to send their rifle away for work. That way you can decide when to start and finish your conversion. More details will become available when I get digital imaging technology working, and when the products are closer to availability. I also plan to offer other accessories, particularly aimed at converted Saiga rifles, so stay tuned and definitely tell me what you'd like to be produced. My process is manual milling, so while high production runs will be no less expensive than short ones, it'll be much easier to offer new ideas and to make the ideas of a small number of people possible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HPJeep 0 Posted July 14, 2004 Report Share Posted July 14, 2004 Sounds great. I am eager to see pics and what pricing you end up asking for the kit. I am a do-it-yourselfer but what mods are required on the mags? Any soldering or brazing? Only other thing I'd want for my 16" .308 Saiga is something like the Ultimak rail for red dot type sights. I also plan on a pistol grip conversion soon. Good luck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrapathy2000 0 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 my system does not remove any material from the trunion music to my ears. will have to pickup a 308 next and that hicap mag adapter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Only mod on the G3 mags is to Dremel a small recess to clear the trunion rivets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrapathy2000 0 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 dremel the mags or the trunion rivets hope the mag. would pickup a cetme rifle if the magazines were easy to find cheap again. suprised how fast those dissapeared. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hartzpad 0 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 If you end up offering the kit, I'll probably sell my Hesse HK91 and get a Saiga to use with the mags. It just hasn't been the best rifle in terms of reliablity or accuracy. Plus, the Saiga is half the price and I already own 2 other Saigas. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siagalova 0 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 Hey Hartzpad, you really don't like that Hesse hk91? There's a century Arms Cetme(or hk91 clone however you want ot call it) at my local dealer, and it looks pretty cool. You're the second person out there that's not happy with them (on this site). they look so cool! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrapathy2000 0 Posted July 15, 2004 Report Share Posted July 15, 2004 cetme's are a crap shoot with HK magazines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted July 16, 2004 Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 BattleRifleG3 .308 SAIGA is on my GOTTA HAVE list. Put me down for one! G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 16, 2004 Dremel work would just be a touch on each side of the mag. Nothing on the trunion. My goal from the beginning was not to touch the trunion, as others have done with M14 mag conversions. I'll update as the production progresses and I have more to show. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IffenWhen 0 Posted July 18, 2004 Report Share Posted July 18, 2004 I am sooooo interested in this!!!! I am addicted to my .308 and have been looking for hi cap mags since I got her. Was contemplating getting a cetme because of the higher cap mags and not wanting to mill out the trunion to do a M14 mag conversion, so this is a great alternative. BRG3..put me down for a kit! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RooK 0 Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 With the AWB sunseting and myself getting ready to buy a new rifle, I've been looking at .308 battle rifles. The Saiga would be perfect, if it wasn't for the 10 rounds magazines (after mod), and Galil mags are too expensive. This would be perfect if it works, it would also be me rifle of choice since it's a lot cheaper than the FAL/G3 kit builds. Any idea if we need to install a feedramp? I know on the 7.62/5.56 coversions you do, would seem logical that this would require it as well. BattleRifleG3, thanks for the effort to get this product out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veprguy 0 Posted July 21, 2004 Report Share Posted July 21, 2004 You don't need it to convert to m14 mags, which is rather easy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 22, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 (edited) If that is a VEPR you have there, it is a whole different issue to convert. But kudos on the job, it looks awesome. Modification to the trunion is why I and many others won't do it to a Saiga. The Trunion is a high stress part. Not something you want to machine away. Concerning feed ramps, my adaptor includes one. If more of a ramp is required, I will include one designed for this conversion. Edited July 22, 2004 by BattleRifleG3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RooK 0 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Veprguy, for the price of a VEPR I could buy two Saiga .308s or buy a decent FAL. All without the need to use more expensive M14 mags. It's a lose-lose situation for the VEPR, they're just priced too high. BattleRifleG3, any idea when we'll be seeing pictures of the conversion and/or price estimates? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veprguy 0 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 (edited) Yea, but on the VEPR it's a pain in the ass to find furniture for or you have to modify AK furniture, and it's all about having as many little projects to do on your guns to keep you out of the bars, right? Yea it was a little more spendy,($400 with the scope and mount) but I was sold on the accuracy claims. I get about 1.5 MOA. If i had to do it again I'd go with the saiga because I've done the trigger job on one before and I want to try it again. Plus I'd sweat a little less hacking and drilling on a cheaper gun. It's a shame about the mags though. Hey G3 have you seen fourfourmag.com? they have m-14 mags that are the US ones fairly cheap. Parkerized for 17.99. Not as cheap as G3 mags but a decent option if the conversion would be easier..... Edited July 22, 2004 by Veprguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siagalova 0 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Hey Veprguy, you don't have to defend your gun! they're about the same price as a fal! If I wasn't such a poorass, I'd get one my self. they're fine guns!! It'd just be a little further down the list for me personally (the dream list). One of these days I'll grow up enough to start gettin toys, that'll be one of them! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veprguy 0 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 I actually think its about the best AK style rifle out there, and if you consider the easy conversion to M14 mags, the price is similar, plus if you get it with the wood stock it is a great looking gun that is easy to modify. My friend has a FAL and a G3 too and while they are nice, the fit and finish and smooth operation goes to the VEPR. Even he agrees. Now a $1k DSA may be nicer, but the most bang for buck as far as quality, I think goes to the russians. If I was going to drop a grand I'd be getting an M-14 anyway. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
duffman 1 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Mmmm, a Saiga 308 just might be on my list now, the reason I have not desired one was the mag issue. Now, with a realitively simple kit and all the G3 mags I have kicking around I'm starting to see one on the horizon. Keep us advised. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RooK 0 Posted July 22, 2004 Report Share Posted July 22, 2004 Yea, but on the VEPR it's a pain in the ass to find furniture for or you have to modify AK furniture, and it's all about having as many little projects to do on your guns to keep you out of the bars, right? Tinkering is one of the main reasons for me wanting a Saiga. Beyond the conversion, I think I'm going for a Galil clone. The hard part is going to be figuring out how to install a thumb safety. That's the one thing other battle rifles, imo, have on the AK design... ergonomics. The Galil comes close to perfect, but I'm not going to shell out $2000 for a preban .308 version so I'll make my own. I believe BattleRifleG3 went with the G3 mags on purpose. The M14 mags are deminsionally too large for the Saiga's mag opening, same with FAL mags. Besides, why not opt for the cheaper mags anyway? I've also heard that the Saiga has a third lug on the bolt that conflicts with the M14 conversion, but someone would have to verify this. Saigas also accept Galil .308 mags with a little modification, but seeing as the 25 round ones are currently $80+ range if you can even find them, it's a useless option. Now if new Galil mags get imported/made domestically after the AWB sunset... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 M14 mags work better if you're already machining the trunion, due to the mag catch. G3 mags have a lower step down from the feedlips if your goal is NOT to touch the trunion. FAL mags - forget about it, full length feed lips. VEPRs are larger in every dimension. Kreb's produced VEPR 308s converted to M14 mags. They only release Saiga 308s converted for Galil mags. There's a reason. My conversion cuts in the opposite direction - back. It replaces the structural role of the cross post with bi directional bracing by the adaptor. I also want to make the most of your skills, and promote learning and skill among gun owners. That's why I plan to release this as a do-it-yourself kit at a low price so that the end result shows as much of your own work as possible. Critical positioning dimensions are already on the rifle. You make room for the adaptor to do its job and you are in charge of what the end result looks like. Whether you like it as it is, or want to finish it yourself, or have it done by your favorite gunsmith, or by a reputable company, that's up to you, and my goal is to leave you with as much money left to do that as possible, because that's what I'd want for myself. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RooK 0 Posted July 23, 2004 Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 (edited) With last reply, I really want to see how this thing works. I can handle doing some cutting with a dremel/file, but since this thing is going backwards, how does it attach to the rifle? Any riveting or welding is out of the question in my position. As for finishing the metal, that's not a problem; OD Green Duracoat anyone? BTW, are Saiga 308 barrels chrome lined? If not, I think I'll purchase a 22" version and cut it down to 20 or 18 inches. If they are, is it a bad idea to cut them down; i.e. will the chrome flake? Edited July 23, 2004 by RooK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted July 23, 2004 Author Report Share Posted July 23, 2004 It attaches at the front by locking into the trunion the same way the original mag does. It attaches to the rear by screws in two of the mag catch holes. No welding involved I'm considering doing a 30-06 conversion some day using this same method but a drastically modified post AWB expiration legal BAR mag. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veprguy 0 Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 I've cut chrome barrels before and had no major problems with the chrome. I could just be lucky, but even in 308 i've noticed no change in accuracy either. My understanding was always that the chrome actually made them less accurate, but easier on maintainance. I'd like to know if anyone has had a problem with chrome flaking, because I've heard the same thing but never first hand. There is a good article in Shotgun news about a month ago about cutting barrels. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RooK 0 Posted July 26, 2004 Report Share Posted July 26, 2004 In the process of cutting, I'm planning on using a kit from Brownells. Just cut it square as possible with a hacksaw, then take the face cutter from the kit and give it a perfect 90 degree angle, then finish it with a 11 or 10 degree crown and lap to perfection. Shouldn't be a problem if the chrome doesn't flake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Veprguy 0 Posted July 27, 2004 Report Share Posted July 27, 2004 Yea, you should have no problem. Gust make sure it's square and crown it with a brass screw, valve compound and a hand drill. It is spelled out in the most recent Shotgun news treasury, and that is the method I've used with no problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 15, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 15, 2004 As an update, the first mag adaptor is finished and ready for testing. Once that is done and dimensions are finalized, it will be time to hit production. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Messiah Jones 2 Posted August 16, 2004 Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 BattleRifleG3, I'm ready to try one out. Where can I read more about your research and your kit? I'll definately buy one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 16, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2004 Threads on this forum probably tell the most. The rest I'm sort of keeping under tabs until I'm sure of all the final details. What I'm currently debating is whether to use the hole for the plate as a mounting point instead of the old mag catch holes, and if so what do do about the trigger guard. We'll see. Today I plan to take it to a friend's range for testing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted August 18, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2004 Took it to the range yesterday, and fired 15 shots without a hiccup. There seems to be a problem where the spring of the G3 mag doesn't provide the strong force needed by the AK action to point the last few rounds straight. I'll be trying other mags to see if this one's a dud, and will be looking into spring upgrades. Anyone know where to find stronger replacement or supplemental springs for a 20rd 308 mag? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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