Want to convert my S-12 to a SBS,what do I need to do to start the pro

[TEXASAK73 13]

What are the first steps in getting this done?I'd like to send mine off to have Tony do the conversion.

[MadMax 0]

If you are actually having Tony (or any other licensed gunsmith) do the conversion I believe he does the paperwork to convert it and then you have to do the paperwork to get it transfered to you - through an FFL dealer in your state who is licensed to deal in NFA firearms.

 

To me this sounds like Tony would have to pay the $200 making tax (which I assume he would charge to you) and you would then have to pay another $200 transfer tax.

 

If I were doing this I would send the gun to Tony to do whatever upgrades I wanted - leaving the barrel at least 18" long. Then after he sent the gun back to me I would do the paperwork (ATF Form 1), paying the $200 making tax myself, and once the BATFE sent me back the approved form I would cut the barrel myself.

[beerslurpy 1]

Form 1 plus saw seems the best way unless you want a super shorty which requires special tony work to do the krink style gas tube. Do this after tony has done all the mods you want.

[MadMax 0]

Found it!

 

Here's the ATF site where you can get the forms :

 

 

http://www.atf.gov/dcof/index.htm

[TonyRumore 1,332]

You can either do a Form 1 and pay $200 or I can register it tax free and send it to your Class 3 dealer tax free, and then you pay $200 to transfer it from your dealer to you.

 

Either way, it costs you $200. Not $400.

 

Tony

[hkusp45 8]

The previous post is a little off if your planning getting an NFA firearm. I have one of Tony's conversions along with other NFA weapons and also live in Texas so here is the easiest way to get it done. Contact a Class 3 dealer in your area. If your near Dallas then I would suggest Steave Wayman from DFW Gun Range. Explain what you want to do and then call Tony. Tony will charge you approximately $400 for the host gun which is about what they cost at the gun show anyway. Once he has payment for the host gun he'll start building and he will tell you build time is anywhere between 60 and 90 days. He had mine done in 1 month but he is good about not promising something to early in case issues come up. Once the gun is built and you pay the balance give him the Class 3 dealers information and he will then ship it to him. Once the dealer recieves the gun he will send YOU the appropriate paperwork. It is neccessary to do it in this order because the dealer must sign the paperwork before you proceed. Once you recieve the paperwork you will need to get the supplied fingerprint cards completed and two passport photos. The final stage may be the hard part because the paperwork then must be signed by the chief law enforcement officer in the county you live in. If you would happen to live in Denton county its no problem because the sherriff will sign after the background check is complete. If you can't get the signature then your other option is to go through the state comptroller and incorporate yourself. If you do this then you don't need a signature or fingerprints but it will cost about $400. Once you have the signature or have incorporated then you send the paperwork, photos, fingerprint cards, and a check or money order for $200 to the ATF for the NFA tax stamp for the gun. I suggest a personal check so that you know when its been cashed! Anywhere between 30-90 days your approved paperwork will be sent back to the dealer and he will call you to come pickup the weapon and paperwork. If you have any other questions just email.

[TEXASAK73 13]

I'll start looking into this,and checking my county for NFA.Thanks for the info.

[banshee 69]

"How do I legally build a SBS?" It is not as hard as a lot of people think it is. The part that is the most aggravating is the CLEO signature and the finger printing.

 

So, here we go..

 

First and foremost, you must ensure that SBS's are lawful in your state of residence. After that, and assuming SBS's are lawful in your state, you must:

 

- Complete and sign 2 copies of ATF Form 5320.1 (Form 1 - Application to Make and Register a Firearm)

- Attach 1 passport-style photos to each Form 1 (2 photos total)

- Obtain the original signature (certification) of the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your area on each Form 1. The CLEO may be the Chief of Police of your town, the Sheriff of your county or a District Attorney, among others. Depending on where you live and who you know this may be easy to obtain, or it may be virtually impossible.

- Complete and sign 1 copy of ATF Form 5330.20 "Certificate of Compliance"

- Include 2 sets of your fingerprints on ATF FD-258 fingerprint cards.

- Send all forms (with attached photos) and fingerprint cards, along with a $200 check (or money order) for payment of the Making Tax, to the address on the form. I recommend Registered Mail for this.

- Wait

- Wait

- Wait some more (Actually it's not forever ... it just feels that way when it's your first time)

- In approximately 30-180 days, ATF will return 1 original approved Form to you.

 

After ATF returns the approved form you may lawfully assemble or "make" your SBS. Please note that you cannot lawfully make the SBS until after ATF has approved your application, neither should you possess the parts to complete the SBS until you have received the approved form. AS soon as you get the form back, make several GOOD copies of it, and put the original one up in a safe place like a fire safe, lock box or even better, a safe deposit box. The ATF WILL NOT replace it if you lose it, they will send you a crappy photo copy. REMEMBER, This form keeps your butt out of jail.

 

Once you get the forms back you will need a short barrel. You can buy one or cut one down yourself. I have done both. If you want to buy one, you can sometimes find them on e-bay believe it or not, or other firearm sites. They will run you about $100 to $200 depending on what you are looking for. You can also get one from most "Class 3" dealers. The easiest thing to do is just cut it off yourself or take your barrel AND a COPY of your approved ATF form to your gunsmith of choice. He should be able to cut it down, touch up the finish, drill and tap and install a sight

 

You will also need to mark the frame, receiver, or barrel with the following info by engraving or stamping. (This information

must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. and plainly visible, not hidden under the fore-end)

- your name

- City, state

 

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422/05...7cfr479.102.htm

 

I do the barrel, that way you can return to a standard 18in barrel if you ever decide you don't want a SBS any longer without destroying the value of the shotgun by having your name on the receiver.

 

"But were do I get these forms?" you ask.

 

very simple grasshopper. you can down load all of them but the fingerprint cards. The Police dept can furnish the finger print cards or you can order them from the ATF here http://www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm

 

The form 1 and "Certificate of Compliance" can be down loaded from these sites.

 

http://www.nfatoys.com/tsmg/web/forms.htm

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5300instructions.htm#5320

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f533020.pdf

 

If you don't want to down load the forms, you can go to this ATF site and order as many of the forms you want. Same site as the Finger print cards. http://www.atf.treas.gov/dcof/index.htm

 

ALWAYS keep a copy of the approved form with the gun. You can travel anywhere with in your state without notifying anyone, (the same has a normal firearm) If you want to take it to another state, you MUST FIRST, notify the ATF with a form 5320.20 Application to Transport Interstate or to Temporarily Export Certain National Firearms Act (NFA) Firearms. This is tax free, and you can do it by FAX.. you can download from the same website as the others or use this direct link.

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/pdfs/f532020.pdf

 

Is it worth all of this just to have a shotgun with a short barrel? To me it is, but you will have to make that decision

 

- So now grass hopper,go forth and shoot your new toy!!

[Conju 2]

So Lets say you form 1 the shotgun yourself, and then you send it off to tony. When you get the approved form back, can you just fax a copy to tony and once hes done sbsing it, he can send it directly back to your address without another transfer? Or am I incorrect?

[hkusp45 8]

Tony has to sign the paperwork before you send anything! Email with a phone number if you arent' sure and need clarification. I would not attempt to do the barrel or anything like it unless your extremely experienced and here's why. My understanding is tony has to make a custom gas system to make the weapon cycle due to its shorter barrel. It is not as simple as cutting a barrel when dealing with an automatic. Your cost to get the weapon built by tony is for a reason because there is much more done than meets the eye. If you were truly making the weapon yourself and just cutting a barrel like a double barrel shotgun then you could bypass Tony and do it yourself.

 

jcmfirearms2003@yahoo.com

Edited December 14, 2006 by jcmfirearms

[Conju 2]

I just want to know if I paid the tax on it and went through all of the formalities myself, if tony could just ship it directly back to me or if i had to get it retransfered to myself through a FFL.

[hkusp45 8]

It has to get transferred through your Class 3 dealer if Tony builds it. IT CANNOT GO DIRECTLY TO YOU!

Let me know what county your in and I can find out about the signoff. I know the poster suggested a longer wait time which used to be correct. The NFA branch has moved and has subsequently speeded up the process. NFA did mine in 28 days on my Tromix shotgun.

[Conju 2]

Well then why did Tony tell me differently, I heard the same from a guy on akfiles.

[hkusp45 8]

If you read Tonys post carefully you will see that it gets transferred from him to your dealer to you, thats how it works. The form 1 is what you will do to build your own firearm. You don't have to bother if you have Tony do the whole project. I've got a dozen different Class 3 weapons and I have done this a few times but feel free to do it however you wish. I was just trying to help.

[MadDog 3]

If you read Tonys post carefully you will see that it gets transferred from him to your dealer to you, thats how it works. The form 1 is what you will do to build your own firearm. You don't have to bother if you have Tony do the whole project. I've got a dozen different Class 3 weapons and I have done this a few times but feel free to do it however you wish. I was just trying to help.

 

You could do a form 1 then after it's approved cut the barrel and mark the gun. Then send it to Tony for a little tune up. This would allow you to actually shoot the gun while you are waiting on forms to be approved. You will still have to get in line for Mr. Saiga (Tony)..MadDog

Edited December 14, 2006 by MadDog

[banshee 69]

yes, my post was for making a SBS from pump, sxs, o/u or single shots. Cutting down an auto loader is quiet a bit more involved in getting it to function correctly.

The 30-180 days I posted is generally shorter now, but I find it best to plan on it taking longer.That way you are not disappointed if runs longer. When I cut my 870P down I got the form 1 back in less than one month.

I agree with jcmfirearms on the transfer going through a dealer in your state of residence.

 

*EDIT* after thinking some more about this. He may be to send it back to you IF you have already have the gun reregistered to you. I sent my Shorty 870 to have it Parkerized and have the barrel engraved ,and it was shipped back to me when it was done.

Edited December 14, 2006 by Banshee

[Conju 2]

If you read Tonys post carefully you will see that it gets transferred from him to your dealer to you, thats how it works. The form 1 is what you will do to build your own firearm. You don't have to bother if you have Tony do the whole project. I've got a dozen different Class 3 weapons and I have done this a few times but feel free to do it however you wish. I was just trying to help.

 

Well then why when I asked tony on the phone, "If I form 1 it myself, and send it to you, can you send it back to my home address after you're done" did he say yes?

[hkusp45 8]

I'll explain a Form 1 briefly. Once the form is sent to the ATF and APPROVED, then and only then can you go about shortening the barrel. The problem sending it the Tony then is the fact that on a Form 1, YOU are listed as the manufacturer. Once your approved then yes he should be able to do the work and send it back but it takes more time and more work. My suggestion is since you seem hell bent on doing things the hard way, then consult the NFA experts at subguns.com. They should be able to explain things about a Form 1 to resolve your issue. The Form 1 is more complicated because you have to do all the work, overall length, measurements, etc. because you are now the builder. Your approval time will also take longer based on my experience. For example, I had a colt ar-15 hbar that I turned into an SBR. I had to do the paperwork myself, measure myself, had to have my name and address engraved on the rifle, (part of the requirement when doing it yourself, and put it all together myself when assembling the upper. Also my approval took four months instead of the one month. I had to do this myself because there was not a licensed Class 2 person to assemble it for me because the local gun dealers cannot and will not work on class 3 firearms. My original suggestion of paying Tony from the start and finding a local Class 3 dealer will make your life easier by you not having to do the paperwork and your approval time will be much faster. However, if you think I am giving you bad information then please consult subguns.com. You will find many helpful people there that are experts in strictly class 3 procedures rather than this site which caters to fans of all types of weapons not just Class 3. I think if you ask Tony which process is easier on YOU he will tell you the same thing I did. Since you didn't appear to have any experience in NFA firearms I offered you what I thought to be the easiest process based on the numerous NFA purchases I have made.

[Genocide 0]

I think this needs to be a sticky, tons of great information here.

[MadMax 0]

You could do a form 1 then after it's approved cut the barrel and mark the gun. Then send it to Tony for a little tune up.

 

I don't think this would be an easy route because once you have the approved form 1 back from the ATF it is an NFA firearm. Once that has happened you cannot send it anywhere without approved paperwork from the ATF. Not only do you have to get a form approved from the ATF to send it to Tony (or any licensed gunsmith) but - IIRC - he cannot send it directly to you but it has to go through a licensed dealer.

 

- I could be wrong on this. It has been years since I have had to do any paperwork with my Class 3 weapons and I know a lot has changed.

 

The posts from jcmfirearms seem to be the most informed and informative - read these and think through what he has experienced and said about this process.

[banshee 69]

You could do a form 1 then after it's approved cut the barrel and mark the gun. Then send it to Tony for a little tune up.

 

I don't think this would be an easy route because once you have the approved form 1 back from the ATF it is an NFA firearm. Once that has happened you cannot send it anywhere without approved paperwork from the ATF. Not only do you have to get a form approved from the ATF to send it to Tony (or any licensed gunsmith) but - IIRC - he cannot send it directly to you but it has to go through a licensed dealer.

 

- I could be wrong on this. It has been years since I have had to do any paperwork with my Class 3 weapons and I know a lot has changed.

 

The posts from jcmfirearms seem to be the most informed and informative - read these and think through what he has experienced and said about this process.

 

 

this is from the ATF website.

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/press/breakingnew...00nfarepair.htm

 

 

Repair of NFA Firearms

 

The National Firearms Act (NFA) Branch has received numerous questions concerning the repair of NFA firearms.

 

The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) does not consider the temporary conveyance of an NFA firearm to a gunsmith for repair to be a "transfer" under the terms of the NFA. Thus, an ATF Form 5 application is not required.

 

PLEASE BE AWARE THAT OTHER DISPOSITIONS, SUCH AS DEMONSTRATION OR SALE, ARE TRANSFERS AS DEFINED IN THE NFA AND MUST BE COVERED BY AN APPROVED APPLICATION TO TRANSFER AND REGISTER. TRANSFERS WITHOUT APPROVAL ARE VIOLATIONS OF FEDERAL LAW. ANY FIREARM INVOLVED IS SUBJECT TO SEIZURE AND FORFEITURE AND THE PARTIES TO THE TRANSFER ARE SUBJECT TO CRIMINAL PENALTIES OF UP TO 10 YEARS IMPRISONMENT.

 

In order to avoid any appearance that a transfer has taken place, ATF strongly recommends that a Form 5 application be submitted for approval prior to conveying the firearm for repair. ATF believes this will provide protection to the parties involved as it will document the repair of the firearm and help ensure that a "transfer" did not take place. In addition, an approved Form 5 will assist Federal firearms licensees in establishing that their possession of the firearm is lawful. However, if no Form 5 application is used, ATF recommends that both parties document what type of repair is being performed. This may be done via work or repair order or other similar documentation.

 

Accordingly, Item I5 in the "Questions and Answers" section of ATF Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2005 (9/05), suggests that the owner obtain permission for the "transfer" of the NFA firearm by submitting a Form 5 application and that the gunsmith do the same for the return of the firearm.

 

Federal firearms licensees must record the acquisition and disposition of the firearm as required by Part 479, Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations.

Edited December 15, 2006 by Banshee

[hkusp45 8]

Good post. It just goes to show all the extra work you make for yourself by doing the form 1 on your own and then doing the form 5 when you can go through a local Class 3 dealer and Tony and achieve the same result in a shorter time and less of a headache for yourself. This is unrelated to the topic however in going thorugh my collection today I have to say I'd be hard pressed to decide which I like better, my machine gun or my tromix 8. Tony does some of the best custom work I've seen and his turn around time was the BEST that I've had.

[banshee 69]

I have to say I'd be hard pressed to decide which I like better, my machine gun or my tromix 8. Tony does some of the best custom work I've seen and his turn around time was the BEST that I've had.

 

 

I have one of his tromix 8 on order now. I ordered it a couple of weeks ago.

[TEXASAK73 13]

It has to get transferred through your Class 3 dealer if Tony builds it. IT CANNOT GO DIRECTLY TO YOU!

Let me know what county your in and I can find out about the signoff. I know the poster suggested a longer wait time which used to be correct. The NFA branch has moved and has subsequently speeded up the process. NFA did mine in 28 days on my Tromix shotgun.

 

I'm in Comal county New Braunfels Texas

[hkusp45 8]

I'll find out from the Sheriff tommorrow if he'll sign for anyone else other than law enforcement.

[hkusp45 8]

get me your zip code. The chief of police in your city is allowed to sign so I'll check with him also and find out if he will.

[TEXASAK73 13]

get me your zip code. The chief of police in your city is allowed to sign so I'll check with him also and find out if he will.

 

78130 New Braunfels Texas

[hkusp45 8]

The sheriff of that county no longer signs. Your option now would be to incorporate yourself. This can be done by contacting the state comptroller and will cost about $400. The plus side to this is that you don't need the signature anymore or fingerprints and you can buy whatever the hell you want! It's just gonna cost a little bit more up front to get started.

[banshee 69]

The sheriff of that county no longer signs. Your option now would be to incorporate yourself. This can be done by contacting the state comptroller and will cost about $400. The plus side to this is that you don't need the signature anymore or fingerprints and you can buy whatever the hell you want! It's just gonna cost a little bit more up front to get started.

 

 

I'm glad Tenneesee is a must sign state..

[MadDog 3]

You could do a form 1 then after it's approved cut the barrel and mark the gun. Then send it to Tony for a little tune up.

 

I don't think this would be an easy route because once you have the approved form 1 back from the ATF it is an NFA firearm. Once that has happened you cannot send it anywhere without approved paperwork from the ATF. Not only do you have to get a form approved from the ATF to send it to Tony (or any licensed gunsmith) but - IIRC - he cannot send it directly to you but it has to go through a licensed dealer.

 

- I could be wrong on this. It has been years since I have had to do any paperwork with my Class 3 weapons and I know a lot has changed.

 

The posts from jcmfirearms seem to be the most informed and informative - read these and think through what he has experienced and said about this process.

 

 

Nope! BATF requires no form 5 for repair. You still need to pre-approve it with the gunsmith; however, all you need is a copy of your form 4 then send the gun for REPAIR. Here is the offical answer from BATFE:

 

http://www.atf.treas.gov/press/breakingnew...00nfarepair.htm

 

NFA Repair FAQ

 

MadDog

Edited December 16, 2006 by MadDog