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Let's design a Practical/Tactical tourney shotgun


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I've been thinking that this might be a fun thing to get board members involved in. We've built a lot of cool stuff in general, but other than the Finnish team I don't think anyone has gone all out in designing and building a gun designed for tournements. I'm talking from the ground up. Best choices for specific items, mods, and

specialty designed items like working mag wells and muzzle brakes. Ways to reduce weight. I'm talking Saiga 12 race gun stuff.

Thought as a basic platform I'd choose a Saiga 12, 19"w/ threaded barrel and add, or subtract what you want.

In the end if this thread go's any place it would be cool if we could compile info and vote on which mods would be best to support the goal and possibly do a photo shop design.

 

What style stock-should it fold, be fixed, telescope, should it remain stock? What Type?

Do we need to look at cheek weld?

What style pistol grip if used?

What style foregrip?

LRBHO?

Magwell, Mag, Mag Catch?

Muzzle Brake?

Choke?

Iron, electronic sights, or both?

What FCG and how to tweek?

What can we do to reduce weight?

What can we do to the barrel-port-profile-flute-etc?

What to do with the gas system to improve function/reliability?

 

I have some ideas I'll be adding when I have more time but I was just curious about what was on your mind, anything can be made-REALLY :rolleyes: Besides, it's been too quiet on the board lately and we need to liven things up and there's a growing number of people using Saiga 12's at shoots so why be average.

Do It With Style............

 

Bottom line is in 2007 I'm going to try to get involved with some local shoots if I can find any near St Louis, this is going to be my winter project. My S12 is a tank of a gun and fits the fun to shoot/SHTF catagory, this next one is going to be designed for a specific purpose and all you shooters and builders need to jump on this if these are going to truely be the comp guns of the future.

Edited by 6500rpm
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O.K., let see if I can get anyone to play along. As far as stock options go I'm thinking pistol grip set up using either a plastic AK style, AR multi position, Tromix Lage, or ACE Skeleton. I wish I had weights of each. As far as fixed or folding, I vote fixed since I don't have any practical experience (Yet), but can't think of a reason for a folder for tactical shoots. I also vote for a Tromix welded back mounting plate as it's simple, light weight, and gives you the ability to get the angle you want, if any, by cutting the back of the receiver.

Stock choice would be either a Tromix, or ACE for me-leaning toward the Tromix due to the shape and size of the back but once again, I wish I had weights of the two.

On the ACE side, my builds use Galil stocks and I'm comfortable with them and the ACE is a very close clone. The ACE has a available cheek rest that might aid in getting on center Quicker?

Questions on my mind....should the stock be parallel to the barrel or slightly tipped? In line with, or slightly below the barrel line? Will a cheek rest have any benefit? All this plays into effect with how the gun shoulders, deals with recoil, and sets the gun up for the sight choice

you make.

Time to pipe up with your opinions and why's so I can get this rolling and we can all learn something.

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Both the Tromix generation 3 stock and the ACE stock (w/ 1/2" recoil pad) weigh exactly the same. 10.56 oz.

 

The Tromix G3 stock with Limbsaver recoil pad weighs slightly more at 11.68 oz.

 

Tony

Edited by TonyRumore
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The San Angelo crowd has been using Saigas in IPSC (actually USPSA, to be pedantic) for years. We have found bolt hold open devices to be a waste of time (just properly undercut your bolt and practice reloading), prefer Doctor sights ("bulletproofed") on mounts fitting the factory dovetail, like mid-barrel compensators and Polychokes, and are split between factory stocks and pistol grips.

 

Reliable 10-round magazines and lots of reload practice are the keys. The shotgun weight and balance point are individual preference.

 

 

 

 

IMO :)

 

 

Alex

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USPSA, since the Saiga has to go in the "OPEN" class ....... I've done the following: several "red dots" mounted, probably will use the "C-More" as I have them on the open pistols I shoot. I left the barrel at 22 "s but did extensive porting to the barrel. drilled gas ports to .093, AR style adjustible stock, polished the "Tapco" trigger group, under cut the bolt, polished the feed prongs, notched the selector lever. The only thing I've been waiting for are the 10 round mags, I'm now living in Arizona and just went to AGP Turbos/ARMS yesterday to pick up my mags but no one was there, so I guess I'll wait for the "Brown truck". I've also got the 20 guage set-up(no porting), this could be the "sleeper" for USPSA??, but I've only modified/made one "Frankinstein" mag for it. Got the 7.62 x 39 gun done BUT doubt it can keep up with the AR's on the long shots? (for 3 gun).

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Ok I'll play.

I haven't shot in competition yet but I've been to some matches, seen some different stages, met some of our members and checked out their setups.

 

First I would go with an Ace folder with 1" "maxipad"...lol Tony

Reason for folder, sometimes in 3 gun you have to shoot from inside a vehicle or other close quarters.

Set it up to fold left so it doesn't interfere with the charging handle or cinched mags. Parallel with the barrel plane. Ace cheek rest ready to slap on when the optics are mounted...

 

The stock irons are ok but I would go with an elevated front sight from rusmilitary (lightweight, fully adjustable, works with rear sight) I hate the Saiga rear sights so I would modify a rear rib support with inset glock pistol sight just like my current setup. Paint the front pin glo white and you have great low light visability and pinpoint accuracy. I love my setup, cheap and very effective.

Have a Kobra sighted in at 50 yds and ready to slap on if needed. It will hold zero after R&R.

 

For PG it's hard to beat the Izzy Ortho grip, lightweight and very comfortable, fills the hand but not too fat like the Saw grip.

 

Forward grip (if any), A Russian or TDI folding grip mounted on Russian tactical rail forearm (vented for better cooling and added grip). (Do they let you use a light, if you have one mounted, for those dark room stages? If so the rail gives you a place to quickly mount one)

 

LRBHO DEFINATELY! If you undercut the bolt and practice that's all good but until you have tried the LRBHO you don't know what you're missing. Do both. Set it up with a modified RSA notched and tabbed selector and you have a speed combo from hell. I've got my own technique for that one.

 

No need for a magwell or guide IMO.

 

I already mentioned cinched mags, 10s preferred.

 

Jeric's extended mag release definately.

 

Tapco G2 trigger, polished

 

Recoil isn't an issue for me with the loads used in competition so I wouldn't bother with the added weight of the ported tank brake.

 

For quick adjustable choke I would go with a ported poly modified and threaded onto factory threads. Tony's the man.

 

On the 19" guns the gas system is sufficient as is.

 

Unless you go SBS there's not much more you can do about the weight. You could use one of those Crapco folding stocks but it might not last thru a whole stage...lol.

 

My .02 for what it's worth...basically that's my tactical S-12

 

Mark here's the bolt mod...Thanx Stimpy!

post-1293-1167499546.jpg

post-1293-1167499577.jpg

Edited by Cobra 76 two
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I'm digging yer sight idea, would like to see some tech on it, I'll search, I bet it's already on here. What about the Krebs elevated?

 

Have a Kobra sighted in at 50 yds and ready to slap on if needed. It will hold zero after R&R.

 

I have my ACE set up to fold left just as you say but its hinge interferes with the side mount quick releasing. I hafta remove the buttstock to slide off the sidemount. Ya might wanna check on that with yer set-up.

Edited by Crow
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I havent bothered putting any glass on the saiga. I just alternate between irons and the korsak. I tried my PKAS on it and didnt really like it that much. Can't see the laser outdoors in daytime. Can see it indoors no matter how bright and outside in evenings/overcast. I personally have no gripe about the irons, at least not for 0-50m duty.

 

Anyone know how much the BHO mod is going for, price-wise? Being able to do mag changes one handed would be a huge benefit in competition. Anyone know if there is any 3 gun in tallahassee area?

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I havent bothered putting any glass on the saiga. I just alternate between irons and the korsak. I tried my PKAS on it and didnt really like it that much. Can't see the laser outdoors in daytime. Can see it indoors no matter how bright and outside in evenings/overcast. I personally have no gripe about the irons, at least not for 0-50m duty.

 

Anyone know how much the BHO mod is going for, price-wise? Being able to do mag changes one handed would be a huge benefit in competition. Anyone know if there is any 3 gun in tallahassee area?

If you mean Jeric's LRBHO it's $79, link is http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...65&hl=lrbho

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I'm digging yer sight idea, would like to see some tech on it, I'll search, I bet it's already on here. What about the Krebs elevated?

 

Have a Kobra sighted in at 50 yds and ready to slap on if needed. It will hold zero after R&R.

 

I have my ACE set up to fold left just as you say but its hinge interferes with the side mount quick releasing. I hafta remove the buttstock to slide off the sidemount. Ya might wanna check on that with yer set-up.

 

With the Ace external block there is more room. Here's a few pics that show my sights. Of course the last one is my preference but that's a lot of work...

post-1293-1167581702_thumb.jpg

post-1293-1167581785_thumb.jpg

post-1293-1167582017_thumb.jpg

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What about chokes? mikeNM hit on something I was curious about, I would think that a full choke would fit the bill for any match situation, is this considered true? On the barrel porting (not gas block ports), what size are the port holes and are they drilled at an angle? Picture would be good.

I had read somewhere that as an added benefit, the porting helps keep the shot tighter as it exits. In the back of my mind I was thinking about a .50 cal style brake,and if a full choke is prefered, then porting out a fixed full choke 22" model and adding a custom brake to dirrect gasses back ond from the top seems to be a good idea.

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1. Do we need to look at cheek weld? Yes cheek weld is critical,

 

2. What style pistol grip if used? I like the SAW pistol grip, I like the full size AK stock non folding solid plastic stock.

 

3. What style foregrip? Saiga with the bottom rail like Ron Swin has on his, with the front, handle,

 

4. LRBHO? Would be nice and can't hurt, but reload before the last round.

 

5. Magwell, Mag, Mag Catch? Rock and lock works for me

 

6. Muzzle Brake? Nope just bling bling,

 

7. Choke? a full set would be nice but I compete with FULL, Full gives you more range but you have to shoot more accuratly

 

8. Iron, electronic sights, or both? because your in the OPEN Division but you have to get a real good optic, for me it's a PK-01 mounted as low as possible perhaps a gas tube mounting system can be devoloped

 

9. What FCG and how to tweek? TAPCO single hook is fine with me, nothing to go wrong or come out of adjustment.

 

10. What can we do to reduce weight? No need,

 

11. What can we do to the barrel-port-profile-flute-etc? No need

 

12. What to do with the gas system to improve function/reliability? enlarge ports?

 

 

 

I agree with 6500 all I use is full choke, it is the best all around choke for 3 gun, I even squeeze slugs out of mine. In real battle with real ammunition, remember most competitions you will be using light dove loads most of the time. With Full choke you can take down stubbern poppers which every one else leaves up, you can engage targets from a greater distance, learn to use your full choke to your advantage. Hitting flying clays might be a little more difficult but you have to practice, practice, practice. Having a Saiga does not make you the Wyett Erp of planet USPSA

Edited by topmaul
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The San Angelo crowd has been using Saigas in IPSC (actually USPSA, to be pedantic) for years. We have found bolt hold open devices to be a waste of time (just properly undercut your bolt and practice reloading), prefer Doctor sights ("bulletproofed") on mounts fitting the factory dovetail, like mid-barrel compensators and Polychokes, and are split between factory stocks and pistol grips.

 

Reliable 10-round magazines and lots of reload practice are the keys. The shotgun weight and balance point are individual preference.

 

 

 

 

IMO :)

 

 

Alex

 

I don't know. . .The BHO raised on the last round, or the last round befor a ammo change IS the perfect last round, or round select aid. The high-cap factory mags don't load well under the pressure of a match. The BHO is my secret weapon, ground bolt or not. Just my $.02.

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Ok I'll play.

I haven't shot in competition yet but I've been to some matches, seen some different stages, met some of our members and checked out their setups.

 

First I would go with an Ace folder with 1" "maxipad"...lol Tony

Reason for folder, sometimes in 3 gun you have to shoot from inside a vehicle or other close quarters.

Set it up to fold left so it doesn't interfere with the charging handle or cinched mags. Parallel with the barrel plane. Ace cheek rest ready to slap on when the optics are mounted...

 

The stock irons are ok but I would go with an elevated front sight from rusmilitary (lightweight, fully adjustable, works with rear sight) I hate the Saiga rear sights so I would modify a rear rib support with inset glock pistol sight just like my current setup. Paint the front pin glo white and you have great low light visability and pinpoint accuracy. I love my setup, cheap and very effective.

Have a Kobra sighted in at 50 yds and ready to slap on if needed. It will hold zero after R&R.

 

For PG it's hard to beat the Izzy Ortho grip, lightweight and very comfortable, fills the hand but not too fat like the Saw grip.

 

Forward grip (if any), A Russian or TDI folding grip mounted on Russian tactical rail forearm (vented for better cooling and added grip). (Do they let you use a light, if you have one mounted, for those dark room stages? If so the rail gives you a place to quickly mount one)

 

LRBHO DEFINATELY! If you undercut the bolt and practice that's all good but until you have tried the LRBHO you don't know what you're missing. Do both. Set it up with a modified RSA notched and tabbed selector and you have a speed combo from hell. I've got my own technique for that one.

 

No need for a magwell or guide IMO.

 

I already mentioned cinched mags, 10s preferred.

 

Jeric's extended mag release definately.

 

Tapco G2 trigger, polished

 

Recoil isn't an issue for me with the loads used in competition so I wouldn't bother with the added weight of the ported tank brake.

 

For quick adjustable choke I would go with a ported poly modified and threaded onto factory threads. Tony's the man.

 

On the 19" guns the gas system is sufficient as is.

 

Unless you go SBS there's not much more you can do about the weight. You could use one of those Crapco folding stocks but it might not last thru a whole stage...lol.

 

My .02 for what it's worth...basically that's my tactical S-12

 

Mark here's the bolt mod...Thanx Stimpy!

 

 

Let's se. . .magwell. . .IF it's for the LRBHO and other exp-01-30 features, I think it will be a USPS or IDPA (unofficial, of course) winner.

 

Cinched mags. . .great time saver.

 

Extended mag release. . .if you are using your left hand (righty shooter), your hand, and thumb is right there anyway. I never saw any point to giving your right hand any more to do than merely holding the PG of the gun while mag changing anyway.

 

TAPCO G2. . .I never liked it because it has ZERO second stage. The hammer clears the disconnector, which IS the "second stage." I prefer the Century FCG which gives you a clear, and adjustable--by filing the bottom of the disconnector--second stage to let you know when your gun will go bang. The Century hammer will need top be resurfaced for a square bolt contact, but that is no biggie, and I have done that to my entire slew of AKs.

 

To me a brake maked a huge difference in serious competitive target re-aquisition. Some form of a brake/comp IS a must--at least for me.

 

TAPCO (or as Cobra says: CRAPCO) plastic stocks are the biggest toy rip-off in the firearms industry. I am embarrassed for them to see that they still try to sell those sorry things. Again. . .my $.02.

Edited by inparidel
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If you could have only one choke then I think full might be the most versatile as it will do it all, but if you can change then I'd guess that 99% of the time you should be using modified. I cut my full choke to a modified choke, and occasionally I wish I had more constriction, occasionally I wish I had less. Usually I'm happy where it is!

 

Full choke will slow you down in the blast em up stages, your sight picture needs to be a little more precise. YMMV.

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On chokes...for what is it worth, when I was but a lowly C shooter with aspirations, I asked my GM buddies what choke was best. The response from three different top-level shooters was "LM" for 99% of the game. They varied loads, not chokes, for on the fly pattern correction. Four years of competition and a "M" card later, I haven't seen any reason to doubt them.

 

That said, I'm very fond of my wife's S20 with the Poly. While it lives in the 20-version of LM almost all the time, it is nice being able to open it up for the clay "hoser stage" now and then without having to resort to wrenches. When I get back to The World, I think I will pull the factory chokes off my S12, turn down the barrel, and install one of my spare Polys (I think I still have two or three dozen in a box somewhere ;) ).

 

I shoot Sporting Clays now and then, as a nice slow relaxing sort of game (the same reason I shoot Cowboy Action once in a while...it is like a real shooting game, only much slower..., but I digress). I have observed that many folks spend WAY too much time fiddle-fucking around with chokes and not enough time properly aligning the sights and jerking the hell out of the trigger.

 

That may play in a slow old fashioned game like Skeet/Trap/SC, but USPSA is a bit more demanding. Setting up properly on the array is FAR more important than the size of the shot pattern. That said, an Open choke sucks for the game. Watching Fred "miss" (with his cut-down 18" Saiga) because he has the most open of open chokes and couldn't put enough pellets on target re-learned the whole "LM" thing for me :)

 

 

 

 

Alex

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What I've found useful is:

-Heavy buttstock/adapter. Lightweigth buttstocks leave all the weight in front of pistol grip and it's not that easy to run with Saiga reaching spare mag with another hand. Balance is the key, not ultra-light weight. ...And remember that mass eats recoil. ;)

-I use only modified-choke. It works with birdshot and slugs (I don't use buckshot at all if it is not compulsary...) keeping the pattern tight enough when NS-targets are around. Still you need to check if ammunition you are going to use works fine with choke you are using.

-Use as low optics as can be found. I have both Docter and "wannabe" Aimpoint (In test to see if it can take the pounding...) simultaneously on Saiga and in low and tight holes Aimpoint is sometimes too high. EOTech is OK if mounted upside down. Otherwise I don't see any benefit in using one. :ded:

-Muzzle brakes: They do give edge but one can go fast even without because recoil is relatively tame. I don't personally use anykind of "recoil-killer butt plates" because those stick to your clothes on lift and when recoil squeezes them they tend to harm sight picture.

-Telestocks works fine when in tight corners and helps when doing arctic training with thick jacket.

-Side by side mags are OK, but take a moment to think why not adding a rod or somekind of edge to your gun to prevent first round from moving forward when emptying the first mag. ;)

-Mag capacity: The more the better.

-BHO vs. LRBHO BHO is worhless and only benefit LRBHO gives you is that you feel straight away that mag is empty. In IPSC I never shoot mag dry before change.

-Magwell is making life easy but after few training sessions mag can be changed fast even without one. Some have found this little trick useful: Paint the corners of mag hole with ambulance red to see clearly where the hole is. Black hole in black gun might fool you in low light conditions. :devil:

-Pay close attention how carrying spare mags with you!!! I've lost several seconds many times because of jamming most-tactical pockets and belt clips are fastest and most reliable method I've come across. ...Learn from someone else's mistakes. :D

-Cocking lever. If you are going to use optics forget levers bended straight upwards, you know why when trying once... ;) Instead make it bigger and longer.

-Remove dust-cover and make eject hole bigger in top cover to prevent ejecting failures.

-Modify safety so that it can be used easily without changing grip at all.

-Mag release should be made work with your stronger hand so that you can remove empty mag while grabbing another one.

-Pistol grip that is similar to your most used rifle gives more familiar feeling when switching to shotgun. Same goes for buttstock too... See the (old) pic. Same grip, size, mag release and balance. ;)

bro.jpg

 

Guess that pretty much has it...

 

 

-JumiKuula aka JamShot

Edited by JumiKuula
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JumiKuula, I was wondering when you were going to show up to the party. Both you and Wakal have been a wealth of information for me in the past on the Docter set up's. Hey, can you give any details on the tank brake set up you have? I've poured through a ton of pictures from the Finnish site and your photo page and can't come to terms with what you've done to the barrel under it, and now two of them, and how you still mate it with a removable choke. The one you built for an AR,I think, was pretty interesting too (saw a before and after effect on a short video that seemed to prove it's effectiveness). I was watching some video of me shooting and I have a preceivable muzzle lift that I'd like to work toward taming (shooting 00 and slugs though).

I'd like to thank everyone that's commented so far, I know there's a lot more of you on the forum with stuff to add. Anything we can do to improve our equipment and form is going to pay dividends in the end. I shoot for the fun of it, and generally just like to build shit so this is all good to me. :D

Edited by 6500rpm
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Barrel has been drilled under the brake. Double 4mm holes for each brake chamber. I think it could take bigger holes too but still prefer to keep it running with 24g ammunition too... ;) Choke was visiting lathe for making its cone shape turn into cylinder and thus allowing clamp on muzzle brake. What else would you like to know?

 

 

-JumiKuula aka JamShot

Edited by JumiKuula
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Ideally I want something as close as possible to an AR15 in operation and controls, and optics mounting, that can accept 3" shells, has a back up pump action system built in like the M3, and weighs less than 10 pounds.

 

I'm using the Saiga because it's the best option available now...not that it is THE best.

Edited by SinistralRifleman
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I'm digging yer sight idea, would like to see some tech on it, I'll search, I bet it's already on here. What about the Krebs elevated?

 

Have a Kobra sighted in at 50 yds and ready to slap on if needed. It will hold zero after R&R.

 

I have my ACE set up to fold left just as you say but its hinge interferes with the side mount quick releasing. I hafta remove the buttstock to slide off the sidemount. Ya might wanna check on that with yer set-up.

 

Any problem with accessing the quick release tab is dwarfed by the convenience of (1) optics, and (2) the advantage of using cinched or clamped mags, which is impossible while right folded. The clamp mag IS the Saiga's one big advantage against a practiced speedloader guy. If you need to quick release, it won't be in the middle of a COF, and if it was, I doubt your stock would bwe folded anyway. IF you were in a real life room sweeping situation and the optic fails, just keep over-the-optic sighting and you will be fine. It is, after all, a shotgun. Left folding is the only sane way to go with a minimum of downsides. Just my $.02

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This was a cool thread!

I too made a few modifications for IPSC.

 

The mods are of course all prototypes. I guess prototyping is the default mode for some competitors (me) where the main interest is in the match rather than the gun itself.

Naturally I think the S-12 is the best platform for competition and customization. Mainly because of its reliability.

 

The mods are:

1. Muzzle Brake (JP style).

2. Manual BHO (extended/modified).

3. Recoil damper (mercury).

4. Comfort device.

5. Picatinny rail (low mount).

6. Optics (Aimpoint).

7. Extended mag release.

8. Plenty of extra mags.

 

Se pics below for the Muzzle brake and a link to a previous post on the BHO mod.

 

 

1. Muzzle Brake

The brake works quite well and is built on a cylinder bore choke. I got a few extra chokes from RusMilitary to experiment with.

 

post-3641-1168113289_thumb.jpg

 

I think the main benefit of a brake on this gun is to enhance follow-ups and slug on paper (double taps).

Recoil is not really an issue here as it is gas operated.

 

post-3641-1168113347_thumb.jpg

 

 

2. Manual BHO

For more info on the Manual BHO please see my previous post on that topic:

eXtended Factory Bolt Hold Open Device Lever

 

These mods are all tested in competition and they seem to improve a gun that is already good.

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Here is another addon that I find handy in some situations. I would not call it a modification as it is not really changing the gun in any way.

 

If you need to load one round at a time into the chamber, it is much quicker than a complete mag change, and it lets you keep the high ready position focusing on the target.

 

It can be used in one of the follwing situations:

 

A. On stages where you should only need 8 rounds (i.e. no mag change), but you find yourself needing just one more to get that last popper.

B. For slug select, or at a stage where you need one round of another type.

C. In a shoot-off (a steel challange at the end of the competition) where they put in a mandatory reload before finnish.

D. In a self defence scenario you might just get the need for throwing in a round of different ammo given the circumstances. It also allows you to grab the gun with only one mag (already inserted) and get more than 8-10 rounds. Extra mags are easy to forget/drop during stress.

 

It is basically a side saddle shell holder mounted on either side of the mag.

 

post-3641-1168195254_thumb.jpg

 

The right handed proceedure is as follows:

 

1. Shoot the last semi-auto round and press BHO (keeps the bolt open)

2. Pull out a shell from the right side of the mag and...

3. slap it into the chamber with a forward motion of the right hand.

4. Pull the bolt handle to release the bolt while moving the right hand back to shooting position.

 

The left handed proceedure goes like this (not depicted):

 

1. Shoot the last semi-auto round and press BHO (keeps the bolt open)

2. Pull out a shell from the left side of the mag and...

3. Tilt the gun 45 degrees CCW.

4. Slap the shell into the chamber with a forward CW motion of the left hand.

5. Pull the bolt handle, with the left hand - still keeping the right hand on the trigger guard (high ready).

 

For lefties the optics might pose a challange. That can be fixed by mounting the optics on the fore end.

 

-------------------------

 

With regards to the disclaimer on the brake (in previous post).... It is to avoid making people intimidated when they look my S12 in the eye. Not sure if it helps though.

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Think a muzzle brake like one of the .50's , or Jamshot's AR, I think (see pics) would be effective? I was thinking about in conjunction with an internal threaded choke with the ports in the barrel slightly before the choke. Or with an external choke just passed the brake. By keeping the brake over the barrel it would allow the use of light material like aluminum, it would also make mounting very easy ,and changing chokes easy. Possibly adding some top ports as muzzle lift seems to be my biggest problem. An internal choke might also save you a few inches.

post-1866-1168402262_thumb.jpg

post-1866-1168402335_thumb.jpg

post-1866-1168402365_thumb.jpg

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