wahlie 1 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 So I went to the local gun store and picked up 500 rounds of federal 55gr boattail ammo. Proceeded to go to the range and shoot my saiga and my bushmaster at 100 yds. This federal ammo was the worst ammo I've ever used. First I noticed bent brass and misfeeds which I've never experienced before with either my Saiga or my Bushy. About 100 rds in, a round jammed in my saiga and seered in half leaving half of an empty casing lodged in the barrel. Here is a pict. Beware of this ammo. Not sure if calling Federal will do anything. -Chris Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Bob 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 So I went to the local gun store and picked up 500 rounds of federal 55gr boattail ammo. Proceeded to go to the range and shoot my saiga and my bushmaster at 100 yds. This federal ammo was the worst ammo I've ever used. First I noticed bent brass and misfeeds which I've never experienced before with either my Saiga or my Bushy. About 100 rds in, a round jammed in my saiga and seered in half leaving half of an empty casing lodged in the barrel. Here is a pict. Beware of this ammo. Not sure if calling Federal will do anything. -Chris Wow - personally, I've only ever seen a case separation like that with Chinese brass-cased .223 ammo, in a Mini-14 that was 100% reliable with all other types of ammo. No fun at all. Are you 100% sure it wasn't reloaded ammo? You might want to talk to Federal (they're a good company), especially if you had problems with the ammo in both rifles, which would indicate an ammunition (rather than firearm) problem. Sorry to hear that the ammunition is questionable - the 'plain wrap' Federal 50 grain hollow points shoot (at least, they have shot in the past) one-hole-groups in my Savage 10FP (how lucky is that, with 'cheapo' ammo?)... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
longhunter-CO 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 I have seen that happen with cases that are reloaded too many times. Are those reloads? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koevoet 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 The AK action is hard on cartridge cases.The 223/5.56 has some of the wealest cases,thinnest rims and highest pressures of the military cartridges.Federal brass is super soft and Remington isn't much better.Winchester cases eem to hold up better.Winchester USA White Box is lower pressure than military ammo.The Russian steel case 223 ammo might hold up a bit better but I find iit has even less velocity than commercial American ammo.The 223 needs a gentle action like the M-16.Mixing the weak design cartridge case with the AK action is asking for case separation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hoop762 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 i had a post a couple weeks ago, same thing happened to me. Was not Fedreal ammo, but some hispanic milsurp. pretty scary as i almost fired out of battery! safe to say i i got rid of all that ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
wahlie 1 Posted January 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 the odd thing is that nowhere on the packaging did it say that it was reloaded ammo. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koevoet 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 It's not that uncommon with 223/5.56 AK's.It's often caused by the large jump and hard chambering of the AK.In 223 the bullet can slam against the bullet guide and edge of the barrel.This can cause the bullet to be pushed back in to the cartridge case increasing chamber pressure a lot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreggD1125 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 (edited) Federal ammo, phooey! I wouldn't use that shit if my life depended on it. I had a run-in with Federal a number of years ago about some 7.62 x 39 ammo. The CS rep was an arrogant SOB. I vowed then NEVER to knowingly use any ammo/product made by Federal from that day on because of that guys attitude. I've had good luck with Winchester in the past. It's a good thing there wasn't a misfire because you could've been hurt. Edited January 16, 2007 by Hylndr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
banshee 69 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 (edited) Edited January 16, 2007 by Banshee Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koevoet 0 Posted January 16, 2007 Report Share Posted January 16, 2007 (edited) If you have any of the Federal ammo left compare the xartridge length to ammo that works in your rifle.The jammed ffeeding and bent cartridge cases sounds like it wasn't feeding properly most likely due to cartridge length and the jamming pushed the bullets iback in to the cases and the denting damaged the cases. Edited January 16, 2007 by Koevoet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Bob 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Federal ammo, phooey! I wouldn't use that shit if my life depended on it. I had a run-in with Federal a number of years ago about some 7.62 x 39 ammo. The CS rep was an arrogant SOB. I vowed then NEVER to knowingly use any ammo/product made by Federal from that day on because of that guys attitude. I've had good luck with Winchester in the past. I'll say right upfront that I do identify with your way of doing business. I had a run-in with a customer service rep at Bushmaster (a complete idiot - I can provide details upon request) a few years ago, which is one reason (the other being superior product ;>) why I do all of my AR business with ArmaLite. (By the way, ArmaLite is 'Ichiban - Number One!' ;>) On the other hand, I won't insult anyone who does business with Bushmaster - apparently they market an acceptable product, if you can believe the majority of posts on-line. As far as ammo goes, I think (and it's just my personal opinion ;>) that you're asking for problems, if you don't use standard "mil-spec" ammo in a 'civilian legal' rifle which has a design based on any military self-loading/automatic rifle. Case in point: even the legendary US M-1 rifle will not function properly, if the bullet weight and/or chamber pressure rise beyond mil-spec. If you use foreign ammo, you have to either check foreign rifle /ammo specs (which may be different than the rifle/ammo combination you are supposed to be using - consider the Japanese 7.62 ammo), or just assume ('guess-timate') that the foreign ammo was actually produced & stored as specified, or assume ('guess-timate') that the foreign ammo will work in a firearm for which it was not designed. (FWIW, that's one reason I like the FAL - you can spell it 'ADJUSTABLE GAS SYSTEM!' With any AK-type firearm, you're just trusting that the mechanism will handle any pressure you send it's way - for round, after round, after round. With the FAL - just test-fire the ammo, & adjust the gas system... ;>) Federal manufactures ammunition for the civilian, law enforcement, and certain limited (read 'one-shot-one-kill') military markets. As with any product, if you use it anywhere it was not designed to be used, you are in unexplored territory. A word to the wise: stick to military surplus ammo for your Saiga - and if the ammo is not Russian .223 (and maybe even if it is), be honest enough to recognize that your ammo may not be compatible with your firearm. When I had 'dog-leg' case separations with Chicom .223 in my Mini-14, I didn't blame the Chicoms - God only knows how or why they designed the ammo, or what rifle they had in mind when they marketed it. For all I know, they were trying to kill or injure 'capitalist pigs' like me, by sending defective ammo to the States. I just changed ammo. No problemo. In my FAL, I use NATO-spec 7.62 ammo (from multiple countires). No problemo. (And by the way, Federal match ammo fuctions just fine, too... ;>) In my AR and .223 Saiga, I generally use NATO-spec 5.56 ammo. So far, no problemo. And 'no problemo' with Winchester 'white box' Q3131 - which (if I remember correctly) is pretty close to NATO-spec. I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time. I've got a .223 bolt gun. If you've got ammo that's 'sub-par' in your Saiga, let me know - I might be willing to swap for some (so I can try it in my Savage 10FP), especially if we can meet in person & avoid shipping costs (which absolutely suck for ammo - once again, ask me how I know ;>). If that won't work, talk to your friends or local gun shop owners, and see what you can work out. (Or buy a Savage Model 10FP - I get one-hole groups with Federal 50 grain 'plain wrap' HPs. How neat is that? ;>) Bottom line - stick to mil-spec ammo for your Saiga - it's a military design, not a varmint rifle, so use mil-spec ammo. (And even then, what you bought might not function right, based on what has been posted here by others. A word to the wise - with any firearm, buy a little & function fire it, before you buy a lot. Again, ask me how I know... ;>) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreggD1125 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 (edited) Federal ammo, phooey! I wouldn't use that shit if my life depended on it. I had a run-in with Federal a number of years ago about some 7.62 x 39 ammo. The CS rep was an arrogant SOB. I vowed then NEVER to knowingly use any ammo/product made by Federal from that day on because of that guys attitude. I've had good luck with Winchester in the past. I'll say right upfront that I do identify with your way of doing business. I had a run-in with a customer service rep at Bushmaster (a complete idiot - I can provide details upon request) a few years ago, which is one reason (the other being superior product ;>) why I do all of my AR business with ArmaLite. (By the way, ArmaLite is 'Ichiban - Number One!' ;>) On the other hand, I won't insult anyone who does business with Bushmaster - apparently they market an acceptable product, if you can believe the majority of posts on-line. As far as ammo goes, I think (and it's just my personal opinion ;>) that you're asking for problems, if you don't use standard "mil-spec" ammo in a 'civilian legal' rifle which has a design based on any military self-loading/automatic rifle. Case in point: even the legendary US M-1 rifle will not function properly, if the bullet weight and/or chamber pressure rise beyond mil-spec. If you use foreign ammo, you have to either check foreign rifle /ammo specs (which may be different than the rifle/ammo combination you are supposed to be using - consider the Japanese 7.62 ammo), or just assume ('guess-timate') that the foreign ammo was actually produced & stored as specified, or assume ('guess-timate') that the foreign ammo will work in a firearm for which it was not designed. (FWIW, that's one reason I like the FAL - you can spell it 'ADJUSTABLE GAS SYSTEM!' With any AK-type firearm, you're just trusting that the mechanism will handle any pressure you send it's way - for round, after round, after round. With the FAL - just test-fire the ammo, & adjust the gas system... ;>) Federal manufactures ammunition for the civilian, law enforcement, and certain limited (read 'one-shot-one-kill') military markets. As with any product, if you use it anywhere it was not designed to be used, you are in unexplored territory. A word to the wise: stick to military surplus ammo for your Saiga - and if the ammo is not Russian .223 (and maybe even if it is), be honest enough to recognize that your ammo may not be compatible with your firearm. When I had 'dog-leg' case separations with Chicom .223 in my Mini-14, I didn't blame the Chicoms - God only knows how or why they designed the ammo, or what rifle they had in mind when they marketed it. For all I know, they were trying to kill or injure 'capitalist pigs' like me, by sending defective ammo to the States. I just changed ammo. No problemo. In my FAL, I use NATO-spec 7.62 ammo (from multiple countires). No problemo. (And by the way, Federal match ammo fuctions just fine, too... ;>) In my AR and .223 Saiga, I generally use NATO-spec 5.56 ammo. So far, no problemo. And 'no problemo' with Winchester 'white box' Q3131 - which (if I remember correctly) is pretty close to NATO-spec. I'm not trying to give anyone a hard time. I've got a .223 bolt gun. If you've got ammo that's 'sub-par' in your Saiga, let me know - I might be willing to swap for some (so I can try it in my Savage 10FP), especially if we can meet in person & avoid shipping costs (which absolutely suck for ammo - once again, ask me how I know ;>). If that won't work, talk to your friends or local gun shop owners, and see what you can work out. (Or buy a Savage Model 10FP - I get one-hole groups with Federal 50 grain 'plain wrap' HPs. How neat is that? ;>) Bottom line - stick to mil-spec ammo for your Saiga - it's a military design, not a varmint rifle, so use mil-spec ammo. (And even then, what you bought might not function right, based on what has been posted here by others. A word to the wise - with any firearm, buy a little & function fire it, before you buy a lot. Again, ask me how I know... ;>) No need for details, Bob, even though idiots come in varying degrees. My comments about Federal were strictly me venting on a sore subject. Most Saigas chambered for .223 Rem. only show the one caliber designation. Not like the ".308 Win/7.62x51" you find on its big brother. BTW, I ran across a brand of ammo yesterday I haven't seen in years, Hansen. I bought 8 boxes @ $4.50/box. I think it's made in Yugoslavia. Edited January 17, 2007 by Hylndr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Bob 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 BTW, I ran across a brand of ammo yesterday I haven't seen in years, Hansen. I bought 8 boxes @ $4.50/box. I think it's made in Yugoslavia. I bought some Hansen 7.92x57 a few years back - but after getting it, I was afraid to fire it. All of my Mausers were pre-Model 98 antiques, and I didn't know what pressure the Hansen ammo generated (as you very obviously know, European ammo is not loaded to US specs). The Hansen ammo looked absolutely beautiful (and the price was definitely right, or I wouldn't have bought it ;>). Based on what I saw, I would recommend Hansen ammo to anyone. But (because I was shooting a 7.92, with different standards in the US vs. Europe, as well as within Europe, where there are multiple "7.92" bore diameters) I farmed it out to people with 'Ford-tough' M98 Mausers (or equivalent). Safety first - and never forget, match your ammo to your firearm... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GreggD1125 0 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 My experience with Hansen ammo was with some 7.62 x 54. I had a problem reloading the case after about 4 times. I still have a few of my reloaded rounds with the familiar "NNY" on them, although the N's were backwards. I'll second your thoughts on safety. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted January 17, 2007 Report Share Posted January 17, 2007 Gentlemen: I hope to add some intel that will clear up the "problem." I had the same thing happen to me with brass case ammo with a SAR 3 that a gunsmith (if you have been on AK-47.net for the past five years, you may know the guy) that ruined one of my Romy .223 AKs by acid bathing it till the chamber and head space was ruined. What you are seeing in the photo presented is a simpe case of too large headspace. Remember that however much we love these fine guns, that we are buying Third World mfg techniques. Sometimes, the headspace on the Saiga rifles (I own those as well as Saiga shotties) is out of spec, primarily because the gun was designed for 5.45 x 39 and also because the assembly process is Third World. If I were the S-.223 owner in question, I would ask myself the following: (1) is the gun new?. If the answer is yes, then I would immediately send it back for a replacement from the importer/distributer. If the gun is old (more than 20,000 rounds through it), then it is simply worn out, and you can possibly run steel cases through it for a BRIEF time. I would not recommend ANY further use of the gun. If it IS old, then it is shot out. If not, then the headspace is too large from the factory. There is no mystery to this phenomenon. it is headspace, eiother from use, of a bad mfg lot. I hope this helps Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Bob 0 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 What you are seeing in the photo presented is a simpe case of too large headspace. You may very well be correct (and thank you for your post!), if the ammunition in question was new-production Federal ammo. Federal has a well-deserved reputation for excellence. Unfortunately, some firearms emporiums have been known to sell reloaded ammo as 'new' ammo. If the ammunition was reloaded, then all bets are off. And even if the ammunition was not reloaded, but was 'out of spec' for some other reason (as I assume the Chicom .223 ammo was, that produced those beautiful 'dog-leg' case splits in one of my Ruger Mini-14s ;>), then you're still looking at an ammunition problem. It's never a bad idea to have a competent gunsmith check the head space on any firearm you purchase (although sometimes it's painful - I had one jack@ss charge me $25 just to check the headspace on a 7.92mm Mauser. I never did business with him again. Word to the wise - get a quote up front, even when you 'know' it's not going to be expensive... ). On the other hand, if you experience a problem with only one type of ammunition, the problem may well be with the ammunition, and not with the firearm. FWIW, your mileage may vary, I may go crazy tomorrow (if I'm not already), etc., etc. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koevoet 0 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 (edited) Too large a headspace usually includes bulged primers.A few pics of the primers of cartridge cases fired in the rifle might show this. Edited January 18, 2007 by Koevoet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted January 18, 2007 Report Share Posted January 18, 2007 Too large a headspace usually includes bulged primers.A few pics of the primers of cartridge cases fired in the rifle might show this. With the SAR 3 I mentioned that had the headspace enlarged beyond spec, I had brass cases split at pretty much the exact place as shown above, and the primers were just fine. I was using mil-surp brass ammo with the traditional solid mil primer crimp, so maybe that's why I saw no bulging. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koevoet 0 Posted January 19, 2007 Report Share Posted January 19, 2007 (edited) Too large a headspace usually includes bulged primers.A few pics of the primers of cartridge cases fired in the rifle might show this. With the SAR 3 I mentioned that had the headspace enlarged beyond spec, I had brass cases split at pretty much the exact place as shown above, and the primers were just fine. I was using mil-surp brass ammo with the traditional solid mil primer crimp, so maybe that's why I saw no bulging. I was going to mention you won't see the bulged primers with military ammo but I knew he used Federal commercial ammo.AK's are hard on 223 ammo even with good head space. Edited January 19, 2007 by Koevoet Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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