Optics and barrel length

[SuAside 2]

As some of you already know, I'm hunting for an S12 to play around with. However I'm pretty unsure about for which scope to go and which barrel length.

 

- First off, for the barrel length:

 

I intend on using slugs at 25m & 50m ranges and use 00-buck on the 25m range as well. On a sidenot: can you shoot buckshot at 50 meters without a choke?

The 25/50m ranges are the standard indoor range dimensions at gunclubs. (Outdoor is difficult, since they have a gazillion regulations to follow)

 

The Saiga 12 versions I can get my hands on are the 12K (430mm barrel) and the 12C (580mm barrel).

 

It appears most of the Saiga junkies favor short barrels... Even as low as 8 inch, which is a possibility I won't even entertain (I even doubt it's legal overhere). Tromix is to blame for the 8 inch madness I'm sure.

Personally I find a 12K is already short enough. A 12C might be a lil' long though, I'm not sure... Either way, I want acceptable accuracy (not just acceptable for pure plinking I mean), so which one should I pick for my uses?

Bare in mind that the 12K (shorty) is 130 euros MORE expensive than the 12C (with pistol grip)!

 

PS: don't just say "the 12K patterns just as well as a Benelli thingywhatever", because I'm a total newb at shotguns.

 

 

- Secondly, the used optics:

 

I'd like a sighting system I can use with both eyes open. This means a 1x non-magnifying "scope", red dot or HUD.

 

I like the authentic look the Cobra/Kobra scopes give, but for 260 euro's, it'd better do more than just "look authentic".

How well do the Cobra's (4 different) sighting settings work at a range of 25 and 50 meters? (The manual says it does fine between 1 and 600 meters, but what's the MOA, general feeling and such?)

The 2 AA batteries are a definite plus over the 3V crap batteries other sights often use btw.

 

If you know any worthy alternatives to the Cobra's that don't cost an arm and a leg, please do share!

 

Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[GTwannabe 1]

Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy. A long barrel swings better for trap and skeet, but that's about it. You don't lose significant velocity until you drop the length below 14". Without a choke, you will throw a fairly large pattern at 50m.

 

You might want to buy the 12C, then cut the barrel to 12K length and thread the end for chokes.

 

As far as the Kobra, you might want to pass on the AA model. The batteries are mounted in-line with the recoil. The stress of firing slugs causes the batteries to slam back and forth, breaking internal parts. We can get Kobras in the US for ~$200. You might want to order direct from one of the reputable Russian sellers (Urals, Tantal) affiliated with this board.

Edited January 28, 2007 by GTwannabe

[SuAside 2]

Barrel length doesn't affect accuracy. A long barrel swings better for trap and skeet, but that's about it. You don't lose significant velocity until you drop the length below 14".

strange, as many shotties seem to have barrels around 20 inch.

 

Without a choke, you will throw a fairly large pattern at 50m.

thought so.

 

You might want to buy the 12C, then cut the barrel to 12K length and thread the end for chokes.

hmz, yes, but that would probably cost about as much as buying the 12K straight away. i dont think threading for chokes is a priority for me right now.

 

if buckshot patterns well at 25m & slugs shoots well at 50m I'm happy.

 

As far as the Kobra, you might want to pass on the AA model. The batteries are mounted in-line with the recoil. The stress of firing slugs causes the batteries to slam back and forth, breaking internal parts.

aw, that's really too bad...

 

what alternatives are there that I could pursue? (within the 200-300 euro price category)

 

We can get Kobras in the US for ~$200.

but I'd pay a shitload of tax for the import, leaving me with no gain at all.

 

You might want to order direct from one of the reputable Russian sellers (Urals, Tantal) affiliated with this board.

I can find Urals, but except old threads I don't see anything of his.

as for Tantal, he doesn't show up at all in the membersearch.

Edited January 29, 2007 by SuA

[SuAside 2]

iI did some digging on the sights, but I still can't find the negative feedback you're talking about GTwannabe. where did you hear about it?

 

(as for Tantal, i found em turns out I already knew about his site)

[ZakherBakher 1]

iI did some digging on the sights, but I still can't find the negative feedback you're talking about GTwannabe. where did you hear about it?

 

(as for Tantal, i found em turns out I already knew about his site)

 

You may give a try to chezh's OKO Sight

 

http://www.oktarget.cz/armada_en.html

 

Vatslav Vinduska had it on his Saiga-12 (430mm) winning 1st place at European Shotgun Championship in 2006

 

in US (Brownells.com) military version of this sight costs like Trijicon ReflexII RX-06 so IMHO it's no use there (except handguns).

 

european dealers listed here

 

http://www.oktarget.cz/prodejci_en.html

 

Belgium is on the second place of this list

 

LIEGE - ARMS

Rue de Bellenay 111

B4040 Herstal

 

Try to ask your local dealer to allow you to look on it before buying.

 

In Germany (http://www.waffenschumacher.com) it's 250 Euro. That's also may be pretty much.

 

Cobras dying on regular matter on 12Ga shotguns here in russia. Most of them like GTwannabe described above.

 

For your distances and load types 430mm is quite enough. If you have choke set (like IC - 0.25, 0.5 or FC - 1mm) you may play with birdshot patterns. You may also try tighten buckshot pattern on 50m targets but it's actually 12ga slugs was designed for. Leave long barrels to hunters and sporting clays. Why bother yourself with a long cumbersome barrel when you don't really need it?

[SuAside 2]

You may give a try to chezh's OKO Sight

*snip*

Try to ask your local dealer to allow you to look on it before buying.

thanks a lot!

 

In Germany (http://www.waffenschumacher.com) it's 250 Euro. That's also may be pretty much.

well, that's 250 euro + about 60 for the mount. (the cobra came with the mount included). that would be quite expensive yeah, but still manageable, i guess. IF it's good quality AND it'll last (unlike the Cobra).

 

Cobras dying on regular matter on 12Ga shotguns here in russia. Most of them like GTwannabe described above.

that's a real shame.

 

i never imagined it would break anything. surely there is nothing it could break in line with the batteries? pretty odd.

 

does this only happen due to the kick of the 12 gauge magnum's or is it common amongst .308's and 7.62 Russians as well?

For your distances and load types 430mm is quite enough. If you have choke set (like IC - 0.25, 0.5 or FC - 1mm) you may play with birdshot patterns. You may also try tighten buckshot pattern on 50m targets but it's actually 12ga slugs was designed for. Leave long barrels to hunters and sporting clays. Why bother yourself with a long cumbersome barrel when you don't really need it?

true enough, but is it actually worth the extra 130 euros? i'm still unsure.

[ZakherBakher 1]

i never imagined it would break anything. surely there is nothing it could break in line with the batteries? pretty odd.

 

does this only happen due to the kick of the 12 gauge magnum's or is it common amongst .308's and 7.62 Russians as well?

 

Generally I saw it on 12Ga only.

 

true enough, but is it actually worth the extra 130 euros? i'm still unsure.

 

Again - you'd better go and try to shoulder each one and get what you like. I would pay additional money on shorter version considering both are the same quality (you should check it mandatory when buying something manufactured in russia) because for me ease of handling, compactness and suitable balance is more important than that sum.

[ironhead7544 35]

I have a 19 inch S-12 with the pistol type sights. At 50 yards the groups are very good with slugs and my gun was at zero from the factory. I think you will be pleased with the accuracy. Regarding a scope, there are scopes made for the shotgun and there are some in 1x. One of these should be fine for your uses. Get a good mount. Also a recoil buffer from Blackjack Buffers will help. The Wolf slugs are slightly downloaded velocity and work well in my gun. I havent been able to try buckshot yet due to range rules here. The low recoil 00 tactical loads generally shoot about 12 to 14 inch patterms at 25 yard from an open choke. 50 yards is probably too far for a standard type 00 load but the Federal TAP load is supposed to be better and should show a tight group at 50 according to recent reports. The TAP loads are expensive but would be worth it for hunting.

[NoAim 0]

Remember that with shot, it is the CHOKE that gives you your pattern, not barrel length.

 

All barrel length gives you is "swing arm" and velocity.

 

You said not to say it, but I will. My Tromix 8" is an OPEN CHOKE. My friend's 18" Beretta (Benelli rebrand) is an OPEN CHOKE. I put an OPEN CHOKE on my 22" Remington 1100.

 

They all patterned within 2" of each other at 25 yards/meters. We shot my friend's Saiga-12 with a fixed full choke....the pattern was 1/3rd the size.

[SuAside 2]

Generally I saw it on 12Ga only.

that would explain why it's relatively hard to find anything about it on the internet, i guess.

 

(damn glad this forum warned me though )

 

Again - you'd better go and try to shoulder each one and get what you like. I would pay additional money on shorter version considering both are the same quality (you should check it mandatory when buying something manufactured in russia) because for me ease of handling, compactness and suitable balance is more important than that sum.

problem is: i cant try them out. the Saiga's aren't imported overhere, so i'm going to have to import one myself (and am thus unable to give them a go before hand).

 

I have a 19 inch S-12 with the pistol type sights. At 50 yards the groups are very good with slugs and my gun was at zero from the factory. I think you will be pleased with the accuracy. Regarding a scope, there are scopes made for the shotgun and there are some in 1x. One of these should be fine for your uses. Get a good mount. Also a recoil buffer from Blackjack Buffers will help. The Wolf slugs are slightly downloaded velocity and work well in my gun. I havent been able to try buckshot yet due to range rules here. The low recoil 00 tactical loads generally shoot about 12 to 14 inch patterms at 25 yard from an open choke. 50 yards is probably too far for a standard type 00 load but the Federal TAP load is supposed to be better and should show a tight group at 50 according to recent reports. The TAP loads are expensive but would be worth it for hunting.

ok, thanks for the feedback

 

& yes, i intend to buy a recoil buffer right away (maybe a limbsaver-like recoil pad as well)

 

Remember that with shot, it is the CHOKE that gives you your pattern, not barrel length.

 

All barrel length gives you is "swing arm" and velocity.

so an adjustable choke might be the solution if the need appears.

 

You said not to say it, but I will. My Tromix 8" is an OPEN CHOKE. My friend's 18" Beretta (Benelli rebrand) is an OPEN CHOKE. I put an OPEN CHOKE on my 22" Remington 1100.

 

They all patterned within 2" of each other at 25 yards/meters. We shot my friend's Saiga-12 with a fixed full choke....the pattern was 1/3rd the size.

hehe, thanks anyway

 

 

guess it looks like i'll chip in extra for the 12K.

 

now to investigate more of those sights...

[davidsuffolk 96]

[quote name='

problem is: i cant try them out. the Saiga's aren't imported overhere, so i'm going to have to import one myself (and am thus unable to give them a go before hand).

/quote]

 

 

Why don't you go over to see Rus Military? They are only in West London and with the Eurostar you could go across and back in a single day without much problem?

 

At least that way you could handle and see what suits you plus they do carry some of the sights you were considering.

[SuAside 2]

Why don't you go over to see Rus Military? They are only in West London and with the Eurostar you could go across and back in a single day without much problem?

 

At least that way you could handle and see what suits you plus they do carry some of the sights you were considering.

although a citytrip to London could be fun, i fear that wouldn't be wise.

 

the website lists that they're out of Saiga 12's with normal stocks (basic variant). it's likely they'll still have a showroom model, but i don't really feel like heading over to find out i can't handle it.

 

anyway, i guess my sights are pretty much set on the 12K now. trying to figure out what would be the best sight and then i can get into the paperwork (and firearms exams) which will take forever.

 

 

edit: btw, how hard is it to install another muzzlebreak (not a choke). i kinda like the small old ones (not the long one with lil' holes at the barrel before the actual brake begins).

Edited January 30, 2007 by SuA

[SuAside 2]

I just learned that for the OKO sights I'll also need a metal protection cage. if you count the scope, the cage and the rail, prices start to get dangerously high... (almost Aimpoint pricerange, even)

 

so what alternatives remain? russian PK sights and older Cobra sights with smaller batteries (i dont have a price on either of those)? or perhaps western sights (but I don't know anything about those)?

[ZakherBakher 1]

Edited February 1, 2007 by ZakherBakher

[SuAside 2]

[ZakherBakher 1]

hmz, I always read it protected the receiver etc... never really heard any negative feedback on the recoilbuffer (until now).

 

i might skip the recoilbuffer in that case & get a shoulder pad instead...

 

 

Well generally you don't need those either but they surely add a bit of comfort for the first time. I bought one when I started shooting, used it once and now keep it for occasional shooters only. Proper stance and shouldering negates that "awful 12Ga recoil" effect. Now I'm shooting wearing t-shirts without any bruises (almost)

 

You better keep away from too wide snap-on-stock pads (underbarrel grenade launcher pad for AK is typical example) - they will mess with consistent stock weld which is a key to fast and accurate shooting, especially with a shotgun.

[SuAside 2]

a regular fountain of wisdom, he?

 

thanks for the advice Zak.

 

 

on a sidenote: zak means bag in dutch. zak is also used for 'asshole' (the person, not the bodypart)

[ZakherBakher 1]

a regular fountain of wisdom, he?

 

thanks for the advice Zak.

 

on a sidenote: zak means bag in dutch. zak is also used for 'asshole' (the person, not the bodypart)

 

Yep it's time to stop it up. too much bla-bla

 

He-he

 

Actually Zakherbakher is transcripted to russian than to english last name of some Austrian biathlonist (I even don't remember woman or man) I accidently heard on TV working on the background. That was funny name because with some slang rules applied on russian it roughly means "one who shoots for the f@$k's sake"