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Pictorial Writeup: Saiga-100 in 30-06


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#1 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 07:56 PM

After much talk, here is the overview of my analysis of the Saiga-100 in 30-06. This will point out the differences between the Saiga 100s and other Saigas, as well as how they achieved to make the AK rifle, designed for the intermediate power 7.62x39mm, in a form that uses the great all-American long action hunting round of the century.

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The first question: how did they manage to fit 30-06 in this rifle?
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The answer: Ingeniously, and using the last remaining space inside the regular AK receiver. That's right folks, just as I had suspected, the Saiga 30-06 is built on the same length receiver as all other Saigas and Euro pattern stamped AKMs.
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What they did was move the rear of the mag well as absolutely far back as they possibly could. Those of you with a Saiga-308 may notice that the post accross the receiver is farther back than an AK in the regular chamberings. The hammer of the S-308 is carved away slightly to clear this post, and adding a US FCG will require the same mod by the owner. This is no problem for a person doing the rest of the mods already. In my conversion of a Saiga-308 to use G3 mags without modifying the trunion, I found that the only way I could fit a rectangular shaped mag in the receiver was to move the mag well back and remove the cross post. I compensated structurally by adding reinforcements to the mag adaptor. I observed early on that if someone used a mag with all the innovations of the S-308 mag but the length of the 30-06, they could rechamber a Saiga to 30-06 the same way.

This is exactly what the Russians did. I was expecting to see a receiver reinforced with a machined bracket of some sort instead of the cross post, but what they did was move the post back so that it is practically above the hammer. In order to still strike the firing pin, this hammer had a pretty deep notch to clear the receiver post.
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With the magazine practically back against the hammer, this is clearly the absolute limit to which the AK-100 receiver can be stretched without lengthening the receiver, moving the positions of the FCG, and lengthening the bolt. As it is, the Saiga-100's bolt and carrier are the same length and the bolt lugs and faces are the same type as the Saiga-308. Except for headspacing issues, I would say a Saiga-308 bolt would be a drop in replacement for a Saiga 30-06.
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The gas system also is the same length as the other AK-100s, and has the same type of removeable gas tube. I would suspect that any Saiga gas tube would drop in, though I haven't tried it yet.
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Since I don't think a post can have unlimited image codes, we'll go to the next post to cover the distinctive differences between the Saiga-100 and the other Saigas.
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These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#2 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 08:26 PM

The Saiga-100, in both 30-08 and 308, has some major variations from typical AKs. Most of them seem to take the sporterization of the AK a step further. This does not "neuter" the gun away from a frightening military appearance, but instead develops many of the typical characteristics of a sporting rifle even further. Taking a step "outside of the box" to see where the design of the AK would have gone if it was developed for semi-auto only and designed to compete with long standing sporting arms such as the Remington 7400 and BAR.

Going from front to back, they start with the front site.
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While the advertised version of the Saiga 100 has what looks like a flash hider integrated into the front site block, the US version has it completely closed. The front edge of the barrel is recessed and the front site block opens up conically into the resulting muzzle. Almost looks like a shotgun at a glance.
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Next we reach the handguard. A radical departure from the usual, this is a two piece handguard that completely encapsulates the gas system.
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The two pieces are removed sideways when two screws are removed from the left side.
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The handguards are kept from moving by having the forward screw go through this piece pressed onto the barrel.
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The front sling swivel is independent of the handguard, and is mounted to the same piece. Fretting over how I would attach a one piece handguard, I found that with enough torque the sling swivel will unscrew.
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Now for the biggie. The entire receiver is covered with a plastic shell.
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The thickness varies from about 1/16" to 1/4" at various points and covers all the rivets and pins that we would normally find. It also prevents the use of a typical AK safety. Instead, the Saiga-100 uses a button safety that is activated by pushing on the left and deactivated by pushing on the right.
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There is a notch in this bar that corresponds to a "nub", a small extension of the trigger. This nub goes through the notch when the safety is off and is blocked when the notch is moved to the side with the safety on.
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What's strange is that there's a spring pulling backwards on this lever and fastened inside the front of the buttstock. I have not yet been able to figure out what this spring does at all.

I tried to remove this plastic shell but do not want to remove it irreversibly, so I'll wait to do that until I figure out how for sure.

The receiver cover also has a plastic shell, but in this case it seems that either a complete receiver cover had plastic moulded over it or the metal contact points were moulded in.
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The recoil spring was the type typically found on the Saiga shotguns, due to the longer action requiring an additional plate to help in protecting the inerts from dust.

It seems as though the purpose of this plastic shell for the receiver and top cover was to provide for smooth aestehetic transitions with the furniture.
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The scope rail is mounted much higher than other AKs. I'm not entirely sure why this is, probably to accomodate the shell. If one were making a one-piece full length stock, this would be a much better position for the scope rail.

This receiver shell includes a trigger guard. This trigger is extended, like the Saiga-308, but not nearly as far as the Saiga-308. In my opinion it feels much less awkward.

This different grip and trigger angle is accomplished by a combination of different modifications to the standard AK design, which you have probably noticed already. First, there is no rear tang on the rear trunion. Two screws retain the buttstock. One is on the bottom, the other is at an angle down the grip from the front side of the rear trunion.
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Second, the receiver is angle cut. These two changes allow the shooter's trigger finger to reach farther forward under the receiver and closer to the trigger's axis. Incedentally, I have a design in the works with the same changes intended for a regular caliber AK. My version uses a shortened receiver as well, and is intended to make it possible to use a regular AK trigger with a classic sporter stock. This is intended primarily for California AK builders, but I'm sure there would be some interest in that style outside of the PRK.

The buttstock istelf seems a little bit shorter than what we're used to. Maybe what we're used to is a little long. I surprisingly didn't find it that much shorter than my QPG stocks, which I've always assumed were on the long side. It certainly didn't feel uncomfortably short. Unlike the other synthetic stocked Saigas, the S-100 has a rubber buttpad. It isn't very thick, so I wouldn't count on a great deal of recoil absorption, but recoil of a 30-06 in a rifle this size should be nothing bad. It seems to be mainly intended to resist slipping.

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 11 February 2007 - 08:49 PM.

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These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#3 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:09 PM

And now for the magazine.
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In line with the Saiga 100 aimed at existing sporting rifles, the magazine is more or less flush with the bottom of the receiver. The capacity is three rounds.
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Their most peculiar feature is that they have their latch at the front. At the rear, there is a round recess where the mag locks around a rod inside the receiver. The mags install with the same lock-and-rock, but the direction is reversed. You stick the rear end up and inside the receiver, and then roll the front end up into the latch.

Unlike the Saiga-308, these magazines have a floorplate that slides on top of a rim at the bottom of the body. This means that there is nothing stopping someone from making an extension for them. Hi-cap obsessors, take note. There is one thing standing in your way, however. This is another sporting style innovation.
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Recall that most AK mags, including the Saiga-308, have long followers, intended to resist tilt. This isn't an option in a smaller magazine, so the Russians used an innovative spring mechanism to resist tilt. The result is a sort of "scissor jack". It controls the angle of the follower while pushing it upward. It even adjusts its angle, as cartridges with any taper at all will require the follower to change angle as it moves upward. So if you're going to try to extend the mag, you'll need a new spring, and possibly a new follower. Avoiding tilt will be a problem, but the Remington pumps and autos don't worry about it much.

Aside on Cartridge Geometry:
Note that the 30-06 is more tapered than the 308. That's why the two rounds are as close as they are in performance, while the 308 is significantly shorter. While plenty of reliable rifles have been chambered for 308, the taper of the 30-06 makes it inherently more reliable for feeding and extraction, while the short, straight case of the 308 makes it more inherently accurate. When it all comes down, quality ammunition trumps "inherent accuracy" and a reliable rifles trump "inherently" reliable ammo. But it's no coincidence that the most reliable rifles in the world shoot the highly tapered 7.62x39mm round, or that the similarly reliable M1 Garand shoots the tapered 30-06.

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 11 February 2007 - 09:44 PM.

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These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#4 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 09:33 PM

I wish I could provide a range report, but the opportunities haven't come yet. I haven't even had the rifle for a week.

But what I will say is that they have kept what matters most about a Saiga, namely the key components of the AK action whose reliability is legendary. Even though they did a number on the outside, the insides of this rifle were changed as little as possible. As Tony showed us by doing a full AK style conversion as soon as the Saiga 100 hit the shores, anything is possible with this rifle, even if difficult. You wouldn't have to go nearly that far to infuse a great deal of AK style into this rifle.

And when people pay nearly as much for the malfunction ridden Remington 7400, and far more for the Browning BAR and Benelli R1, a semi-automatic 30-06 for under $500 based on the legendary AK action should have a reputation that precedes it.

The 30-06 is THE American hunting round, with a variety of loads that can, according to many opinions, take any game on the continent. When I do take this to the range, I will be firing factory ammo ranging from 150gr to 220gr. You will also be able to legally load and fire steel cored ammo, since steel cored 30-06 is explicitly named exempt from AP ammo bans while 308 and X39 are explicitly named banned. And with foreign surplus 308 drying up and going up in price, the price difference between 30-06 and 308 just closed in a good bit. And remember that this is the same 30-06 ammo that nearly every gun owner has in his collection, whether it be for an M1 Garand or a bolt action hunting rifle.

I have always been an advocate of this rifle, and being able to handle and examine it has only strengthened my advocacy. Many people exclaimed how great this would be and I don't believe it will let anyone down. And perhaps most importantly, this rifle, an AK designed for civilian ownership and chambered for our very own 30-06, is a symbol of the end of the cold war if I ever saw one. We should be supporting this development in the hopes of further opportunities to buy quality Russian arms. It will also tell American arms makers that American gun owners value simplicity and reliability over fancy features that look good only on paper.

Oh, and for those who want wooden furniture in a style closer to the other Saigas...
I got you covered. ;)

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 11 February 2007 - 09:38 PM.

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These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#5 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 11 February 2007 - 10:38 PM

This is the version previously advertised. Think I liked it better.

Attached Files


These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#6 TEXASAK73

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 03:54 AM

Very nice BRG3,I need to get one those rifles.What type of optic rail is on these rifles?
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#7 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 10:15 AM

It looks like it will take regular AK optics but I wouldn't bet on it.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#8 Aethelbert

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 06:02 PM

... The buttstock istelf seems a little bit shorter than what we're used to. Maybe what we're used to is a little long. I surprisingly didn't find it that much shorter than my QPG stocks, which I've always assumed were on the long side. It certainly didn't feel uncomfortably short. Unlike the other synthetic stocked Saigas, the S-100 has a rubber buttpad. It isn't very thick, so I wouldn't count on a great deal of recoil absorption, but recoil of a 30-06 in a rifle this size should be nothing bad. It seems to be mainly intended to resist slipping.



First, thank you for showing us (okay, _me_!) how and why the Saiga 100 is designed the way it is.

You are right in saying that we may be used to buttstocks that are a little on the long side. I had Cobra shorten the shoulder stock on my lowly Saiga .410 by 1 3/4" but I figured that my 'reach' was just shorter than most people's due to my relatively small stature. Never figured I was too terribly alone in that since the Italian service rifles of both world wars were designed for people with similarly short 'reach'.

Again, thanks for going to all the work (I know, I know -- a labor of love and all that...) that this project has required.

#9 MrTuffPaws

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Posted 13 February 2007 - 06:19 PM

Great write up. Thanks

#10 busy_squirrel

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 02:49 AM

Looks like the perfect candidate for the one piece stock with the plastic coating.

I notice the button safety and sight mount are already "taken care of." :angel:




So could I fabricate a similar safety for my .308?

That was why I thought the .40 would suffice, with normal, cheaper loads for everyday gunfights and the only need for the 200 grain hardcast loads would be bears, biker gangs, and mimes.


#11 dinzag

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 09:05 AM

Good write-up BRG3, thanks!

Mods - you need to create a couple new pages in the rifles area for the Saiga 100 series 308's & 30-06's.
Sticky this to the top of the 30-06 one. Tony's Conversion as well...

Me find linkeys...

#12 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 01:59 PM

I'm all for a Saiga-100 section next to the other Saiga rifles. Suppose we could bump one of the less used professional conversion boards, like Hesse, which sucks, or AKUSA, who hasn't been as active lately? Perhaps bump both and put up a S-100 and Tromix board in their place?
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#13 G O B

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Posted 14 February 2007 - 11:17 PM

+1 on a Saiga 100 heading. And let's get rid of the unused headings for a Tromix and a Red Jacket (all active builders?) heading.

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#14 bernerz

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 12:31 PM

+1 on the S-100 and Tromix areas. I do have a concern about the S-100 though. Anyone have any thoughts on how that sheet metal receiver would be able to deal with certain higher power loads? I fully agree with BRG3 that the 30-06 is one of the top rounds for hunting. I use one when I hunt in Alaska knowing that it can stop anything, even the big browines that tend to be about. When I hunt in that type of area I use the 220 grain loads. I would worry about receiver flex with the heavier loads and loss of accuracy. Is this a real concern, or am I being a bit of a nay-sayer?
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#15 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 18 February 2007 - 07:34 PM

I have read that receiver flex affects only the side rail scope mounts, and primarily on the 308 Saigas and VEPRs, so the 30-06 would seem to be in the same ballpark. Some however seem to get excellent accuracy with a siderail scope.

People often get superior and satisfactory results with open sites which are not affected by the receiver rigidity. A scoping solution is to use a scout type rail and an extended eye relief optic.

I don't use any receiver scope rail. I currently don't scope any of my AKs either though. If I did, a scout mount would be the way I would go.

One thing I realize I haven't learned about the S-100 - I haven't measured the thickness of the receiver. That may affect the rigidity of the scope mount.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#16 scoutjoe

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:02 PM

Saiga 100 in .308 w/ a Belarus hi-rise mount (didn't have a low rise, sorry)
Attached File  IMG_0701__Medium_.JPG   78.12KB   47 downloads

Attached File  IMG_0702__Medium_.JPG   61.82KB   39 downloads

Personally I don't think a High-rise sight is possible to use without a serious cheek rest
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#17 TEXASAK73

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:10 PM

It needs a low mount if that is at all possible?
(7.62x51)Vepr-308/V-308M14 KCI conversion,Saiga-308 22" Saiganov,Saiga-308 16"(unconverted)
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#18 Red Jacket

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:24 PM

Good write up BRG3 , other then changing out the plastic for your custom wood , are you planning any structural changes to the weapon ? I like your idea on the top mounted piccatinny on this , I've been using it for a while now on the ZK's . I think it would be a great mod on the 100 . btw , you can extend 2-3 inchs back over the dust cover with the rail without having any clearance issues .
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#19 TEXASAK73

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Posted 23 February 2007 - 11:31 PM

I'm trying to locate one in my area,I want to come up with something like a Drag style stock but with an optic rail on the dust cover for better hunting style optics.The front sight needs to be moved back and a 14x1 flash hider installed.
(7.62x51)Vepr-308/V-308M14 KCI conversion,Saiga-308 22" Saiganov,Saiga-308 16"(unconverted)
(Shotguns)Saiga-12 "C",Saiga-410 "C",Saiga-12(unconverted)
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(5.54x39)Romy MK II 5.45,Bulgy AK105 pistol

#20 cpileri

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 07:30 AM

Now for the biggie. The entire receiver is covered with a plastic shell.
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I tried to remove this plastic shell but do not want to remove it irreversibly, so I'll wait to do that until I figure out how for sure.


I was wondering if this same piece could be removed reversibly. I'd be interested in the details if you, or anyone else, figures it out.

Great pictorial, BTW!
C-

#21 cpileri

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 07:41 AM

I have read that receiver flex affects only the side rail scope mounts, and primarily on the 308 Saigas and VEPRs, so the 30-06 would seem to be in the same ballpark. Some however seem to get excellent accuracy with a siderail scope.


Has anyone found that using a muzzle brake lessens the receiver flex?

Correct me if I am wrong on the mechanics of 'receiver flex', but my understanding is that receiver flex occurs during the muzzle-rise portion of the recoil impulse, as the muzzle comes up essentially dragging the breech of the barrel with it; which in turn tries to drag the trunion/receiver upwards as well. The receiver flexes upwards and then the elasticity of the receiver steel, plus the weight of the barrel under gravity, combine to whip the recoiling parts back down to level/original conformation.

The flexion occurs just ahead or even on a portion of the rceiver that is underneath the side mout plate, ths affecting the optics. Perhaps even shaking them loose over time?

Am I correct?

If so, then a good muzzle brake like a JP 'tank turret' recoil eliminator might prevent reveiver flex and keep the optics sighted in.

C-

#22 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 10:21 AM

Muzzle rise would certainly affect receiver flex more than recoil, but with the AK the bore is on the high side compared to the cross section of the receiver, so recoil would certainly have a significant effect.

A muzzle brake that manages both would make the most difference.

Another scope mounting option would be a scout type mount on the rear site, which appears to be AK standard. A receiver cover mount would work, but wouldn't be the most firm, and would need some modification such as Tromix did.

Low pro or hi-pro, it would need a serious cheek rise if using a side rail scope mount. I'm good for that if anyone wants one.

I'm not planning any significant mods to my Saiga-100, since I want to keep it capable of mounting items I develop for unconverted S-100s. Furniture in all its varieties is going to be my focus with this rifle. If you wanted to do something along the lines of the Tromix conversion but didn't want to weld up a square receiver extension, I could make an AKM style stock to fit the angle cut receiver. At the moment I'm going to leave removing the plastic cover to someone else, perhaps someone who in a worse case scenario wouldn't mind removing it permanently. For my purposes, the receiver shell is ok to keep.

Edited by BattleRifleG3, 24 February 2007 - 10:27 AM.

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These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#23 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 24 February 2007 - 10:37 AM

We are working on some changes that will include rearranging the forums and headings. We were talking about getting rid of the Hesse stuff and the AK-USA and adding more up to date headers. Amoung those will be a section for people to post about "Other Rifles that ARE AK based".
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#24 K2unit

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Posted 03 March 2007 - 12:22 PM

>>Unlike the Saiga-308, these magazines have a floorplate that slides on top of a rim at the bottom of the body. This means that there is nothing stopping someone from making an extension for them. Hi-cap obsessors, take note. There is one thing standing in your way, however. <<

Does it look like there might be room to modify the receiver and/or mag for a 20rd BAR mag? Would it just be easier to add an extention to the esisting 3rd mag and deal with the spring & follower plate issues? Thanx K2

#25 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 04 March 2007 - 08:24 PM

NO there is NOT room enough to modify the rifle for a BAR mag. And due to the design of the BAR mag, you cannot remove enough material to get it to fit and have the feed lips still function.

YES, it WOULD be easier to add an extension to the factory mag. The magazine body rim described above makes this possible with the S-100 whereas it was not possible with the S-308.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376

#26 bmbguns

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Posted 13 April 2007 - 05:19 PM

NO there is NOT room enough to modify the rifle for a BAR mag. And due to the design of the BAR mag, you cannot remove enough material to get it to fit and have the feed lips still function.

YES, it WOULD be easier to add an extension to the factory mag. The magazine body rim described above makes this possible with the S-100 whereas it was not possible with the S-308.


Hello BattleRifleG3... This is my first post on this site so congrats on being my first (ummm, that sounded bad). Anyway, I must yell from the hill tops that you are a god among mortal men. If more people would post pics the way you did life would be much easier. A little background on me. I'm an FFL dealer in south Louisiana sice 1998. I mostly do custom work and transfers. My shop cannot compare to Tromix but I do have some fun. Anyway, I've been wanting to get into a high-cap 30-06 for a few months now and was planning on converting a Browning Mark II by machining a new floorplate to accept either a 10 round Remington 7400 mag or a 20 round BAR 1918A2 mag. Of course a new mag release system and redesign of the feed lips would be required if it would work at all. BUT, a close friend turned me on to the fact that the Saiga 100 in 30-06 was finally here. I hooked up with my Saiga distributor and know of the location of 8 rifels for sale and ready to ship.

I have not purchased one yet and I am really on the fence about getting one. I am usually first to jump in the water so I might as well follow you!

Now, your pics have answered a lot of questions on mag design and what could and might be possible. You appear to be very correct in saying that adding to the existing mag body would be the easier way to go. They had to do some freaky stuff to make this thing work and the mag really shows that.

So... From what I can tell so far the easiest possible road would be to machine out the inside of the Saiga mag to accept one of the Eagle 10 round Remington 7400 mags (with lips removed, ouch) and bond the two parts together with Acraglass or 3M Epoxy. It's possible that modifying the Saiga follower and using the Eagle spring would work. This would likely be a delicate process and would require some material removal from both the OD of the Eagle mag and the ID of the Saiga mag. My milling machine is eager to get cutting!!! If you could send me dimensions of the Saiga mag body and if someone else could send dimensions of an Eagle mag we could figure it out. I have a Remington 7600 chambered in 35 Whelen but it has a steel factory mag not plastic Eagle mag. Acraglass could be used to flood all the open voids around the OD of the mag if there are any and it bonds like an SOB.

I can get the Eagle mags wholesale by the truck load so I might by one just to play with it. If I could get my hands on an extra Saiga 30-06 mag life would be great but RAA said they do not have extra mags for sale. You get two with the rifle and that is it. Hopefully they will get another shipment of these rifles at the end of the summer with extra mags as well.

So... Without having everything sitting in front of me I don't know about a 20 round mag. I do own a press break so building a mag box is not a problem. But, as you stated, the BAR mag won't fit in the body of the Saiga mag. BAR mags are thin wall steel mags so if they are too big not much can be done. Too big it too big.

I can get access to a CNC mill and try to duplicate the Saiga mag from billet but that will be more of a pain than it is worth. Sand casting the Saiga mag body in aluminum might be the better route to go. Sounds crazy but I've done crazier.

Anyway... Other than saving up $3500 for a real BAR 1918A2 in Semi-auto, this appears to be one of the very few routs to a high-cap 30-06....

I look forward to comments on this and appreciate the very detailed layout given in your post...

Now... No flames people... Only Ideas and solutions... BMB

#27 Aloxite

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Posted 23 May 2007 - 08:57 PM

Ok, since extending the factory mag is plausible, I'll throw this into the mix. I know a guy (a good friend of a good friend) who has a sheet metal business. He owns a CNC sheet metal break. I don't know if these are common or not, but I've seen some very precise work out of it (4 dovetails that fit together perfect and telescoped). I also am not entirely sure that that one machine would do everything we need, but he's been in the business for decades and is good at what he does.

So, if someone wants to have a mag extension bent, I would be willing to donate my time and gas to work with him to get it done. Now, I'd expect you to pay his bill (should be reasonable) and shipping. Also I'd expect you to send a detailed design, since I don't own one of these.(If this works though, I'd be unable to stop myself) Maybe sending the factory mag might be a good idea. I'm just letting you know that I know someone with a piece of expensive machinery that may be able to assist in this project.

I'm just throwing this out, if anyone is interested let me know.

Aloxite

edit - I've been thinking about this some more

Would a BAR mag spring (not the whole mag just the spring) be an appropriate size for a 20 round extension? Its got to be the right height but maybe too wide or long? Anyone have one to measure? Also, are they available anywhere for reasonable?

Anyone know of another source for other springs (some kind of industrial source maybe?)

I was thinking that a mag extension would be easiest to make in two halves (sheet steel) welded together. The sides would be single thickness and the front and back would be double thickness (except for maybe where they enter the factory mag.) The bottom of the sides would be bent outward 90 deg. for a typical ak type floorplate. The floor plate should be easy, and likewise the floor plate retainer (if thats what its called) would be easy.

Now for the follower, it would be easy to make a simple sheet metal follower with longish legs to keep the thing from rocking for and aft, but with a flat top. Then epoxy the stock follower on top of it (probably have to grind the bottom flat.) This assumes that the shape of the follower thats appropriate for a 3 round mag is appropriate for a 20 rounder.

Okay, I'm just thinking out loud here. And, as I said before, I don't own one of these,,,,, YET.

By the way, I'm in the Portland, OR metro area.

Also, if any of you roll your own ammo, you might be interested to know that Wideners is selling pulldown unfired Lake City 30-06 brass for $80 per thousand. (min 500) Mine was all 1969 headstamped. It'll need the primer pocket crimps removed. Pat's reloading also sells some and GI Brass sells 100 for $12 if you don't want 500. (can't imagine why you wouldn't want a couple thousand though.)

Aloxite

Edited by Aloxite, 07 June 2007 - 03:30 PM.

Why you SOB! You no good damn SOB! You no good SOB! You Lied to me! You lied to me! You told me this was regular coffee!

#28 limaguppy

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Posted 29 July 2007 - 10:23 AM

Ok, since extending the factory mag is plausible, I'll throw this into the mix. I know a guy (a good friend of a good friend) who has a sheet metal business. He owns a CNC sheet metal break. I don't know if these are common or not, but I've seen some very precise work out of it (4 dovetails that fit together perfect and telescoped). I also am not entirely sure that that one machine would do everything we need, but he's been in the business for decades and is good at what he does.

So, if someone wants to have a mag extension bent, I would be willing to donate my time and gas to work with him to get it done. Now, I'd expect you to pay his bill (should be reasonable) and shipping. Also I'd expect you to send a detailed design, since I don't own one of these.(If this works though, I'd be unable to stop myself) Maybe sending the factory mag might be a good idea. I'm just letting you know that I know someone with a piece of expensive machinery that may be able to assist in this project.

I'm just throwing this out, if anyone is interested let me know.

Aloxite

edit - I've been thinking about this some more

Would a BAR mag spring (not the whole mag just the spring) be an appropriate size for a 20 round extension? Its got to be the right height but maybe too wide or long? Anyone have one to measure? Also, are they available anywhere for reasonable?

Anyone know of another source for other springs (some kind of industrial source maybe?)

I was thinking that a mag extension would be easiest to make in two halves (sheet steel) welded together. The sides would be single thickness and the front and back would be double thickness (except for maybe where they enter the factory mag.) The bottom of the sides would be bent outward 90 deg. for a typical ak type floorplate. The floor plate should be easy, and likewise the floor plate retainer (if thats what its called) would be easy.

Now for the follower, it would be easy to make a simple sheet metal follower with longish legs to keep the thing from rocking for and aft, but with a flat top. Then epoxy the stock follower on top of it (probably have to grind the bottom flat.) This assumes that the shape of the follower thats appropriate for a 3 round mag is appropriate for a 20 rounder.

Okay, I'm just thinking out loud here. And, as I said before, I don't own one of these,,,,, YET.

By the way, I'm in the Portland, OR metro area.

Also, if any of you roll your own ammo, you might be interested to know that Wideners is selling pulldown unfired Lake City 30-06 brass for $80 per thousand. (min 500) Mine was all 1969 headstamped. It'll need the primer pocket crimps removed. Pat's reloading also sells some and GI Brass sells 100 for $12 if you don't want 500. (can't imagine why you wouldn't want a couple thousand though.)

Aloxite



#29 buckandaquarterquarterstaff

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Posted 11 September 2007 - 09:14 PM

How about a range report? Thx.

#30 BattleRifleG3

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Posted 22 September 2007 - 09:08 AM

I think I did one on another thread.
These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country. But he that stands it now deserves the love and thanks of men and women. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. - Thomas Paine, 1776

From this place we will deliver notice to the parlaiments of conquerors that a line has been drawn against the darkness.
And we will hold that line, no matter the cost. - John Sheridan, 2259

They Invade our space, and we fall back. They assimilate entire worlds, and we fall back. The line must be drawn here, now! This time they will go no further! And I will make them pay for what they've done. - Jean Luc Picard, 2376




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