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Can somebody help clear up my 922r confusion?


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I went to the ATF website, and found what I could about 922r.

Something doesn't add up.

On their website, under 922, I didn't find anything about "parts count".

 

Does a WASR 10 have American parts?

A WASR has a pistol grip, hi cap mags, and other evil features, but is legal to shoot as is.

 

My Saiga has no pistol grip, folding stock, etc.

(I know some of this was under the AWB which is gone. (For now.) )

Where is the regulation that says an imported weapon can't use hi-cap mags?

 

Since Tennesse doesn't have any magazine capacity regs., I wonder if I even need to worry about it.

 

Can somebody provide a link to the ATF document that talks about "parts count"?

I've searched here, and several other boards, and found lots of talk about the law, but no actual links.

 

I've got a strong suspicion that we are doing lots of parts swapping that may not be necessary.

 

Has anyone who is actually a lawyer looked at this?

 

If someone can show me the holes in my logic, I'm willing to be educated. :angel:

 

Thanks.

Edited by mini14jac
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There are several laws that I believe you are mixing together, but I may just be misunderstanding you.

 

First off there is an assualt weapon ban law, which limits ANY rifle/shotgun to a certain number of "evil" parts. These are pistol grip, folding stock, high cap mag, etc.

This weapons ban dissolved in 2004 and no longer applies (Some parts may still be around in some states though...).

 

Secondly, there is 922r, foreign parts compliance. This law states something along the lines of "Any imported firearm cannot have more than 10 foreign made parts". I believe that unmodified imports are exempt from this, which means that a factory produced saiga .223 which has 14 parts including the mag is OK, but as soon as you put a new mag or a pistol grip onto it you have "built a new weapon" and it suddenly has to follow 922r compliance.

 

Anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or slightly off, but these are the laws as I understand them.

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DougG,

Thanks for the reply.

 

Part of the problem is, as near as I can tell, that's not what 922® says at all.

Here it is from the ATF website:

® It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to --

 

(1) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for sale or distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United States or any department or agency

 

thereof or to any State or any department, agency, or political subdivision

 

thereof; or

 

(2) the assembly of any such rifle or shotgun for the purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the Secretary.

 

If I stick a high capacity mag on a Saiga, I've not made it identical to any prohibited rifle, as near as I can tell.

Now, if I stick foreign parts on it to make it into an AK, I have possibly violated this law.

 

Here's the link to the entire 922 section of the Gun Control Act:

GCA

 

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble, but I would like to know the honest truth on this.

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Here's a link to my post on AR15.com.

 

AR15.com post

 

Got some good info, but one guy over there needs to switch to decaf. :rolleyes:

I'd bet my ass he's a law student, an an average one at that. Most likely he's a first year law student at that. If he were a 2-L or 3-L he'd have too much work to be spending much time on his replies. And if he were a good 1-L, he'd be immersed in his job search and wouldn't have time either. He's a middle-runner that is competent enough to throw some legal jargon around.

 

He's sitting in his classes, not learning the law, making himself feel better for dumping $15-25k a year on an education that he's not taking advantage of b/c he can't get to the top of the class where the money is made. So he takes out his misery on non-legal "laymen" and it gives him a stiffy and justifies his waste of 3 years and $75k to go to law school.

 

Notice how he didn't claim to be a lawyer. He gave an ambiguous answer that was nothing but a smoke screen. If he claimed he is a lawyer but is not, he'd never see his license. The American Bar Association doesn't take kindly to fraud. All he says is he's not "your lawyer." He's not your lawyer, so it's true. But he's not a lawyer period! He's a law student that needs to show a bit of respect and care for his fellow gun-wielding peers.

 

I'm not a member of ARF.com, otherwise I'd call him out. But he's borderlining misrepresenting himself on that forum, getting others to support him (which I agree, he's made good points and research), and being rude while doing it. See if he'll claim to be a lawyer. I bet he'll give some offended answer that blows a bunch more smoke then avoids the issue entirely. I think he needs to step down from his high-horse.

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Saw the flames on AR15..ouch. I posted this there too:

 

OK call me thick too, if this is the law, either law:

 

It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes except that this subsection shall not apply to --

 

 

Then why does this 10 round magazine rule apply at all to a 7.62x39 Saiga because if you do not "convert" , it is still "suitable for sporting purposes" and not "idenitical" to any rifle prohibited from importation. It seems to me that you only run into this WHEN you convert a Saiga to a style "prohibited from importation".

 

 

I started this on another thread because I just could not see how putting a guide in and using a 10 or less round, any 10 round AK magazine would be a problem under 922r and I went to the same place you did...it looks like we CREATE the problem on using 30 round magazine when we do the AK pistol grip conversion.

Edited by 14427h
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It seems like the laws are difficult for a reason.

 

"Common folks" can't understand it, so we have to hire a lawyer.

 

As someone on that SKS post linked above pointed out, just because the ATF puts it in a letter doesn't mean it's right, or legal.

(Anybody been following the $1000 bump-fire 10/22 stock fiasco? ATF sent a letter saying the company could make and sell a 10/22 stock that, by design allowed you to "bump fire the gun. Cost was $1000 if I remember. After they ramp up production and sell a couple thousand stocks, the ATF sends another letter saying "We changed our mind. Your stock makes a machine gun." <_< )

 

My confusion has been cleared up.

From a layman's viewpoint, 922r, basically says you can't make an imported gun look like a banned gun.

(Can't use imported parts to make my Saiga into an AK.)

Regulation 27 CFR 478.39, (among others) contain the "parts count" lingo that gets so confusing.

 

Wow. This is a strange board.

 

Nobody called me a mouth breathing idiot for asking a question. :rolleyes:

 

There's still time!

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It seems like the laws are difficult for a reason.

 

"Common folks" can't understand it, so we have to hire a lawyer.

 

(Anybody been following the $1000 bump-fire 10/22 stock fiasco? ATF sent a letter saying the company could make and sell a 10/22 stock that, by design allowed you to "bump fire the gun. Cost was $1000 if I remember. After they ramp up production and sell a couple thousand stocks, the ATF sends another letter saying "We changed our mind. Your stock makes a machine gun." <_< )

 

I've been following it because I was wondering how it was legal when i saw the ad in shotgun news awhile back, but the local shop had one come in for a guy, but then they got the news that the ATF says is bad so they weren't sure what to do since it was paied for and apperently the manufacturer wasn't going to refund money

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It seems like the laws are difficult for a reason.

 

"Common folks" can't understand it, so we have to hire a lawyer.

 

(Anybody been following the $1000 bump-fire 10/22 stock fiasco? ATF sent a letter saying the company could make and sell a 10/22 stock that, by design allowed you to "bump fire the gun. Cost was $1000 if I remember. After they ramp up production and sell a couple thousand stocks, the ATF sends another letter saying "We changed our mind. Your stock makes a machine gun." <_< )

 

I've been following it because I was wondering how it was legal when i saw the ad in shotgun news awhile back, but the local shop had one come in for a guy, but then they got the news that the ATF says is bad so they weren't sure what to do since it was paied for and apperently the manufacturer wasn't going to refund money

 

There's quite a bit of traffic on the .22 forum at ARfcom about the stock.

 

I would have been real surprised if they were going to get refunds from the manufacturer.

 

Talk about a ticked off bunch of shooters!

 

What can you do? It's the ATF.

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Am I wrong in assuming that the Saiga IS SPORTING and does not fall under the issue raised in COLUMBIA CIRCUIT No. 00-5409 Springfield, Inc. that Springfield lost on importing the SAR8 Sporter and the SAR4800 Sporter or the Saiga would not be imported? Is ATF saying a Saiga with an AK magazine is an AK , not sporting? Are they saying that a semiautomatic that CAN TAKE a detachable magazine is not sporting? It can't be that the Saiga "magazine well does not readily accept hi caps" because the "well" requires no alteration. I think they have been there, NOT done that becase it CAN take one if there was one available over 10 rounds .

 

Am I wrong in thinking that the Saiga is sporting or it would not be imported? MY question is can you put a +10 round magazine in an imported gun that is sporting and not identical to a semiautomatic rifle prohibited from import? Wasn't one of the original reasons for the 10 round limit on the Saiga the Assult ban? It seems that we are mixing a rule under the expired Cliton ban with the 922r rules when it come to magazines in the Saiga.

Edited by 14427h
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Wow. This is a strange board.

 

Nobody called me a mouth breathing idiot for asking a question. :rolleyes:

 

There's still time!

 

 

unless you do something way overboard, nobody will....the lack of "beatdown by moderation" and other things like "why roar about our right to bear arms when we wont let each other practice our right to free speech?" is what sets this forum apart from the rest, and the direct results of that in our membership makeup.

 

 

as far as I know, the WASR-10 is named that because it was imported in a single stack configuration with ten round magazines. fairly certain that is why the SAR-1 and SAR-2 were stopped from importation. if you go look at the bennelli shotguns, and the ruling that you cannot attach a mag tube extension to bring it past 5 rounds due to it being an imported gun, and the ruling by the ATF was quite clear about it, there lies another clue. I am also aware that the ATF would not allow the current importer to import saiga shotgun if they brought in the 8 rounders with them, as well as the rifles if they brought the high caps in with them.

 

as much as I hate to offer, sunday or monday when I get home, if you guys havent figured it out, I will (man, I really dont want to do this) go into the illegal laws myself and get the headache and decypher what part of what law it says that you cant attach a high capacity feeding device or magazine extension to an imported firearm. I really try to avoid law digging, because of the headaches I get from it, but Ill figure it out to the letter of the law either way. you dont need to be a lawyer, you just have to be able to understand what it is that you are looking at and for. I will even quote what im talking about and give sources, which most of you know from the past, I dont like to take the time to do it. I already know what the answer is, just have to go fetch it for you guys, is all.

 

I hope its quoted and figured out before then. :(

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Am I wrong in assuming that the Saiga IS SPORTING and does not fall under the issue raised in COLUMBIA CIRCUIT No. 00-5409 Springfield, Inc. that Springfield lost on importing the SAR8 Sporter and the SAR4800 Sporter or the Saiga would not be imported? Is ATF saying a Saiga with an AK magazine is an AK , not sporting? Are they saying that a semiautomatic that CAN TAKE a detachable magazine is not sporting? It can't be that the Saiga "magazine well does not readily accept hi caps" because the "well" requires no alteration. I think they have been there, NOT done that becase it CAN take one if there was one available over 10 rounds .

 

Am I wrong in thinking that the Saiga is sporting or it would not be imported? MY question is can you put a +10 round magazine in an imported gun that is sporting and not identical to a semiautomatic rifle prohibited from import? Wasn't one of the original reasons for the 10 round limit on the Saiga the Assult ban? It seems that we are mixing a rule under the expired Cliton ban with the 922r rules when it come to magazines in the Saiga.

 

If you really want to know, the 1998 import regulation was patterned after the spirit of the 1994 AWB, but it is legally separate just as 922R is separate. If it was legally possible to import AKs with high capacity mags attached , everyone and his brother would be doing it. The Saiga rifles can not be imported with a 30 round mag. Since 1998, there has not been any high cap compatible rifles imported. If you can't import it that way, you also can't copy the alienated version using more than 10 foreign specific parts. Saigas are considered sporting enough to be imported as long as they do not have the high cap mags.

Saiga + high cap mag = unimportable.

Saiga modified with less than 11 foreign parts + high cap mag= legally compliant

The BATF decides what they will consider to be sporting enough to allow for importation.

The assault weapon ban is over and too many people think that anything goes now, but that is not the case.

 

The simplest way to put it, "The 1998 Clinton High Capacity Import Ban Does Not Allow Any New Imported Rifles To Use Mags Over Ten Rounds, Yes, this includes your Saiga until you convert it".

 

 

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/04/06/assault.weapons/

Clinton Bans Import Of Modified Military Rifles

 

WASHINGTON (AllPolitics, April 6) -- The Clinton Administration made permanent Monday a ban on the import of rifles that can be easily returned to their semi-automatic, military purpose and on rifles with very large magazines for ammunition.

 

The administrative order, which would make permanent a temporary action taken in November 1997, can be appealed within 30 days.

 

During a Rose Garden press briefing with uniformed police officers on hand, President Bill Clinton mentioned two specific weapons, the AK-47s manufactured by Russia, China and other nations, and the Uzi, an Israeli-made weapon. Such weapons, the president said, are not needed for deer hunting or skeet shooting. (352K wav sound)

 

Clinton said he was issuing the order based on the finding of a review prepared by the Treasury Department, the parent agency of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms.

 

"That is why our administration has concluded that the import of assault weapons that use large-capacity military magazines should be banned," Clinton said.

 

The AK-47 and the Uzi, he said, "are military weapons, weapons of war. They were never meant for a day in the country, and they are certainly not meant for a night on the streets. Today, we are working to make sure they stay off our streets." (352K wav sound)

 

 

Clinton noted President George Bush's administration and his administration both have moved to limit the availability of semi-automatic weapons, but he said there are "foreign gun manufacturers who evade the law" by making "minor, cosmetic modifications to weapons of war."(448K wav sound)

 

"We are doing our best to say, 'You can read the fine print in our law and our regulations all you want and you can keep making your minor changes,' but we are to do our best to keep our people alive and stop you from making a dollar in the wrong way," he said. (448K wav sound)

 

Semi-automatic weapons can fire dozens of rounds in seconds from magazines that can hold 100 or more bullets.

Edited by dog
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Like I said on another thread, I now see the light.

 

This is the 1998 letter , the "high capacity ban" relateted to modified assault rifles and the opion is based on the Clinton ban.

 

 

April 6, 1998

rr-2347

 

TREASURY PROHIBITS IMPORTATION OF CERTAIN SEMIAUTOMATIC ASSAULT RIFLES

New Prohibition Applies to Rifles that Accept Large Capacity Military Magazines

 

Treasury Secretary Robert E. Rubin announced today a prohibition on theimportation of modified, semiautomatic assault rifles with the ability to accept large capacitymilitary magazines.

 

Today's announcement follows a comprehensive review of the importation ofapproximately 59 modified, semiautomatic assault rifles conducted by Treasury and its Bureau ofAlcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF). The review was directed by President Clinton andSecretary Rubin last November, and stemmed from concerns that many new, dangeroussemiautomatic weapons had been developed in the nearly 10 years since the last review.

 

"President Clinton and this Administration are committed to rigorous enforcementof laws designed to keep dangerous weapons off our streets," said Rubin. "With thisdecision, we can further reduce the flow of weapons that have no legitimate use in oursociety."

 

Under the 1968 Gun Control Act, the Treasury Department is required to restrict theimportation of firearms unless they are determined to be "particularly suitable for or readilyadaptable to sporting purposes."

 

In 1989, the "sporting purposes" provision led ATF to ban the importation ofseveral semiautomatic versions of assault weapons possessing military features such as bayonetmounts, pistol grips, night sights and grenade launchers. After the 1989 prohibition, certainsemiautomatic assault rifles that had failed the sporting purposes test were modified to remove allmilitary features except the ability to accept a large capacity military magazine (LCMM) thatholds more than 10 rounds. The LCMM rifles are models based on AK-47, FN-FAL, HK 91 and93, Uzi and SIG SG550 military assault rifles.

 

This review concluded that the original prohibition is correct and that military-stylesemiautomatic rifles are not importable. This review further concluded that firearms with theability to accept a large capacity magazine designed and produced for a military assault weaponshould be banned. The review draws support from Congress and the Administration's 1994decision to ban large capacity military magazines on the grounds that they served"combat-functional ends" and were attractive to criminals.

 

"We have no desire to take guns away from hunters, or other legitimate users. Wedo, however, want to protect Americans from the violence that can result from thesesemiautomatic weapons," said Rubin.

 

Up to 1.6 million firearms whose importation had been suspended during the review maybe affected by this decision. Importers will be notified of this decision in writing and given anopportunity to respond.

 

The Study on the Sporting Suitability of Modified Semiautomatic Assault Rifles isavailable through the Treasury Public Affairs Office at (202) 622-2960 or via the Internet at http://www.atf.gov/ after12:00 p.m. EDT Monday, April 6.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unless you change 922r parts,you are screwed on the Saiga with AK magazines, the Saiga issue is also about the type of magazine. If it is a Saiga or any other semiautomatic( imported under 922r) has been converted to take a standard AK magazine as far as I can see it is not legal unless parts meet 922r. This applies to any AK magazine, even a 10 round, as you Saiga is now capable of accepting a large capacity magazine designed and produced for a military assault weapon" (AK) magazine[ And "capable of" is all the ruling states you need to do to be in 922r violation , as revised by the 1998 opinion, doesn't say you have to even have one. Like you said, 1994 ban is over but the 922r bans still stand on their own, unless there's a new reclassification.

 

Now someone tell me why, after the ban, you are limited to 10 rounds with SAIGA ONLY magazines with the Saiga "as is" unless you have a local or state law?

Edited by 14427h
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Guilty as charged, just love my Saiga as is.

 

 

I gotta say, I do too, and all this legal crap is hard to sort through, but it all says the same things.

 

The parts that get's me is you can go score an AR, and how is it not a "weapon of war"? The cheapest ones I've seen are still a few hundred dollars, if not into the 1.2-1.5k range.

 

This post has been enlightening to say the least, good posts.

 

I have to agree on the good forum comment also, this has been a very informative board with a ton of, what seems to be, great folks

Edited by urotu
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Now someone tell me why, after the ban, you are limited to 10 rounds with SAIGA ONLY magazines with the Saiga "as is" unless you have a local or state law?

 

I think your failing to see that we are not in the post 1998 high capacity ban era.

The 98 ban still lives on til today, and therefore, you are limited to the confines of legal conversion based on all applicable laws. Gun laws are not simple sensible rules. Each one is a specific attack of a politically demonized weapon characteristic.

 

The main purpose of the 1934 ban was primarily about full auto. The Thompson submachine gun was demonized. That issue opened the door to other possible banned features like bores over 50 caliber (DDs), and conceilable firearms.

 

By the same degree of question you posed, I could ask, " Now since its been over 70 years, why can't I just drop a full auto sear into my pistol?, or why can't I just cut my shotgun barrel to 12 inches without all that paperwork"?

 

As you can see, its not just that simple.

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Thanks, I know I am being thick but here goes...my question is still why would a high capacity Saiga magazine that is not a large capacity military magazine (LCMM) fall under the 1998 provision of 922r that was added to and prohibits LCMM? "This review further concluded that firearms with the ability to accept a large capacity magazine designed and produced for a military assault weapon should be banned that holds more than 10 rounds. OK, that is clear, the Saiga doesn't do that , no LCMM , no MILITARY MAGAZINE of any capacity. In 1998 ANOTHER law ALSO prohibited any new 10+ round magazines. OK the Saiga didn't do that then either. That law is gone and the 1998 ruling that still stands is against LCMM of over 10 rounds, OK I see that. It does not say ANY magazine over 10 rounds and the Saiga does not use LCMMs, it uses a Saiga magazine. It states over and over that it is the Clinton ban that makes them see things that way. So the 1998 laws stands AGAINST LCMM and the Saiga does not use them when not converted.

 

http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/suitabil.pdf

Edited by 14427h
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http://www.atf.gov/pub/treas_pub/assault_rifles/suitabil.pdf

 

About the third paragraph down the page from the link says, " Large capacity magazines are indicative of military firearms".

 

The BATF policy is a / magazine over 10 rounds = non-sporting / non-sporting = No import

 

No import = You can't copy configuration Even night sites are non-sporting according to their point system. Best thing to do is write them and ask yourself.

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I'm a newbie too, guess that's why I started this.

 

It would be good to have the actual regs sticked.

(But who reads stickies anyway? :smoke: )

922r and 27 CFR 478.39 would be good for starters.

 

I just wanted to see that actual laws, instead of just hearing them repeated.

 

Near as I can tell, 922r says you can't convert your Saiga into an AK with imported parts.

Once I found 922r, I was even more confused, because it didn't mention parts at all.

 

When I found 478.39, I started to see some light.

27 CFR 478.39 (among others) apparently say you can make an AK if you have less than 10 foreign parts,

if you want to use hi-caps.

 

Edited to add:

You know, if I could have found extra 10rd 7.62 mags for $10-15 I wouldn't even have worried about this stuff.

But now, mine's getting converted.

Edited by mini14jac
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Yes, a lot of posts to really say what we nubies were told in the fist place.

 

The 922r 1998 revised law is the law on imports unless they change it.

 

A Saiga is only going to be able to use any type of +10 magines if you make the parts 10 or less imported, at that point feel free to add all the evil features you want to your "US Made" semiautomatic.

 

And I'll add show me how I am wrong that even a 10 round or less AK magazine is out in a otherwise non converted 7.62x39 Saiga...period....Springfield case confirmed that:

 

In April 1998, the Secretary announced that

modified semiautomatic assault rifles with the ability to ac-

cept large capacity military magazines do not satisfy

s 925(d)(3), and therefore may not be imported pursuant to

that section.

 

...

 

All we know is that from 1989 to 1997, when the tempo-

rary ban took effect, a rifle's ability to accept a large,

military-style magazine did not automatically disqualify it for

importation. BATF fully explained why it has now decided

that this particular military feature found in Springfield's

rifles is of considerable significance. The courts may require

only "a reasoned analysis indicating that prior policies and

standards are being deliberately changed, not casually ig-

nored." Id.; see also Motor Vehicles Mfrs. Ass'n v. State

Farm Mut. Auto. Ins. Co., 463 U.S. 29, 57 (1983); Am.

Trucking Ass'ns v. Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe Ry., 387

U.S. 397, 416 (1967). The BATF Director's decision revoking

Springfield's permits met that standard.7

 

Affirmed.

 

__________

7 We have considered and rejected Springfield's other arguments.

They occasion no need for a written opinion. See D.C. Cir. R. 36(B).

 

 

 

http://pacer.cadc.uscourts.gov/common/opin...06/00-5409a.txt

 

Magazine use is two issues, capacity and type. You still have to meet the law regarding capability to accept "large capacity military magazine (AK-47) magazine". Capable of is the issue not the size you are using. If I can snap a standard AK magazine in and it works, could be a one round or a hundred round, if it works I no longer have a sporting semiautomatic and I fail the import ban. Any +10 round magazine is the same as "large capacity military magazine magazine" under 922r opinion of 1998 during the 1994-2004 AWB. ATF never changed it, still the law on imports.

 

 

Really read what Dog said above:

 

I think your failing to see that we are not in the post 1998 high capacity ban era.

The 98 ban still lives on til today, and therefore, you are limited to the confines of legal conversion based on all applicable laws. Gun laws are not simple sensible rules. Each one is a specific attack of a politically demonized weapon characteristic.

Edited by 14427h
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