The Ultimate Rifle

[BattleRifleG3 16]

First, let me define the "Ultimate Rifle". I don't mean the "omnipotent rifle", nor the biggest round, nor the fastest firing, nor the least recoil. So no Barret M82A1 with a Beta-C mag unless you really mean you would make that your primary rifle for hunting and homeland defense.

 

The word "utimate" has a slant towards meaning "final", in the sense of being the final word. So I'm looking for you to describe a rifle that would be well rounded enough to cover the whole range of uses.

 

You could say this is the "if you could only take one rifle" subject, but the key here is that it doesn't have to exist already. Combine the best features of everything you like into something you would realistically want.

 

Or to look at it another way, what type of rifle would best cover all of your primary uses, and everything you buy afterwards would be specializing? If you could design your "core" rifle, what would it be?

 

I'll give my idea in a separate response.

[Red Jacket 329]

My idea is actually for a series . AK action with AR ergonomics , including "drop free" mag release and thumb selector and left hand charging . caliber from 9mm to .308 . I'm working on it , I'm pretty sure it would go quicker if I were smarter

[scoutjoe 276]

Barret M82A1 with a Beta-C mag

 

thats an image i'd like to see

[will36 0]

First, let me define the "Ultimate Rifle". I don't mean the "omnipotent rifle", nor the biggest round, nor the fastest firing, nor the least recoil. So no Barret M82A1 with a Beta-C mag unless you really mean you would make that your primary rifle for hunting and homeland defense.

 

The word "utimate" has a slant towards meaning "final", in the sense of being the final word. So I'm looking for you to describe a rifle that would be well rounded enough to cover the whole range of uses.

 

You could say this is the "if you could only take one rifle" subject, but the key here is that it doesn't have to exist already. Combine the best features of everything you like into something you would realistically want.

 

Or to look at it another way, what type of rifle would best cover all of your primary uses, and everything you buy afterwards would be specializing? If you could design your "core" rifle, what would it be?

 

I'll give my idea in a separate response.

 

I have had about every gun you have ever seen in a shotgun news. from fal's to AK's. A nasty divorce ate a gunsafe full of guns , but I have my kids and my house . Out of all of them . Like will said sort of. The tuffness of an Ak and the feel of an AR. I would want my Daewoo 223 back.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I suppose if money is NOT an option... and I can have "whatever I can dream up"... Then I would want a "small" minigun.

 

Something with like 18" to 2 foot long barrels, not as big as the one in the movie predator... and would probably run on .223 ammo... I could have a LOT more of that than .308 ammo in the "ammo backpack" And to top it off... GET THIS... SELECT FIRE... semi-auto and Full auto... cause sometimes ya just DONT NEED to spray 3 thousand rounds a minute... but it would be nice to have that option when you need it... Although .308 wouldnt be bad either, I suppose... maybe it can take BOTH... with a quick barrel/Bolt swap... LOL ( Hey... its my FANTASY gun, I can have WHATEVER I WANT!!!)

 

It would of course have not only them GREEN lasers for sighting, but digital-optical and NV as well. all controlled/interfaced on a goggle/helmet mounted HUD. (Anyone ever read the "war against the Chtorr" series by David Gerrold? Think helmet/rifle combo like he describes in there... )

 

Digital "Ammo remaining" readout... like they had in the aliens movie... Always nice to know how many thousand rounds ya got left in the ol mag-backpack...

 

Maybe a 40MM grenade launcher mounted underneath... in case we need EXTRA firepower.

 

and its gotta have some REALLY nice wood furniture on it... with lots of figuring/burl... cause I am a sucker for really figured wood... Even if it is JUST the grips. LOL

 

I think thats a good start....

 

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I wasn't really thinking "fantasy gun", more along the lines of "If only they made one of these", something that would cover most of your realistic needs in one rifle that you would be comfortable carrying. If a BAR isn't too heavy and is worth it, then make it a BAR. I can't see anyone wanting to carry around a beltfed M2 however.

 

Here's my idea:

 

First off, although my state prohibits the use of semi-auto rifles for hunting, I would want my ultimate rifle to be semi-auto. A reliable semi-auto is more consistent in reloading than a human operating a bolt, since the speed would vary no matter what.

 

Second, while many excellent and reliable semi-autos are made with stamped parts, this one should be machined. If I were trying to produce this rifle for profit I would consider a stamped receiver, but the best machine design optimization requires regulating every dimension, keeping material where it's needed and removing it where it isn't. In other words, you can sometimes get the best rifle for your money with a stamped receiver. But the idea here is to get the best rifle period. My idea of a receiver for this type of rifle would be a two part receiver. The upper would be steel with machined rails and the barrel screwing in at the front. The lower would be aluminum with the magazine well and trigger group. It might look like an AR style at first, but the lower would also serve the same purpose as an SKS dust cover, namely keeping the bolt and carrier inside.

 

The cartridge I would choose - 30-06. Almost every army in the world adopted a cartridge with similar ballistics to this one at the beginning of the 20th century. In the mid century, a certain load for it was almost matched with the shorter 308. But the whole range of loads available for the 30-06 cover a much wider range of performance. Reduced recoil loads with 125gr bullets are common, heavy 220gr hunting loads are too, mid range loads of 150gr and 180gr bullets are omnipresent, and then there's Hornady's light magnum, which should not be used in any current semi-automatic. Military ammo is still out there, and now that 7.62x51mm NATO has jumped in price, 30-06 is almost equivalent economically. Never mind that you can reload a good bit of the 30-06 brass out there.

 

One thing this rifle would absolutely need is an adjustable gas system. No question about it. With clear settings for reduced recoil, military, sporting, and light magnum loads.

 

With adequate machining, this rifle could feasibly be no heavier than the sporting semi-autos by Remington, Browning/Winchester, and Benelli. I could very easily, however, tolerate a modest increase in weight. If possible, it shouldn't be too much towards the front of the rifle. I'm thinking 10lb max, or perhaps that much fully loaded.

 

For a magazine, BAR mags would be the standard. However, smaller mags would be useful when you wanted something more compact or flush with the receiver. So fresh 5-10rd mags with the BAR latch pattern would come wiith the rifle.

 

I'm very torn between having an open top to the receiver, like the SKS and M1 Garand, and having it closed like practically all rifles that load from a detachable mag. I would like to be able to load the rifle from the top, especially in a hunting or other sharpshooting situation. But the strength advantages of a closed top receiver are significant, both for safety and for the rigidness of optics. With an open top receiver, I'd be inclined to use a scout type mount, but I don't have much experience with that setup myself.

 

Another thing I'm torn over is having the piston above or below the barrel. Above would be sleeker and more modern, but below would have its advantages. Above would be like an FN-49, below would be like an M1 Garand. A piston below the barrel would allow for an AK-type long stroke gas system, which is my preference, and allow for an open top receiver. A piston above the barrel would either have to be short stroke, like the SKS and FAL, or if long stroke it would cover the top of the magazine and require a closed receiver.

 

The bolt would be something we don't see much of - a four lug bolt with 45 degree rotation. To me it seems an obvious choice. But no, everyone instead uses a 2 lug, 3 lug, or many lug design. The four lug bolt would allow it to ride in the receiver on two lugs like an AK bolt, have a 45 degree lockup like the AK bolt, and have superior strength. I'm torn between a fixed ejector and a button ejector, but I'm pretty sure a lever-claw extractor is what I'd want there.

 

For a stock on a do-everything rifle, I wouldn't want a protruding pistol grip, instead I'd want a classic stock with a more vertical grip than usually found on a sporting rifle. If it had an underbarrel gas system, it would have to have a full length stock, in which case the main external distiction between it and the M1, besides the trademark receiver profile, would be the detachable magazine.

 

If I really wanted a p-grip stock I could have an additional one, and with no springs in the buttstock there would be nothing preventing you from making a folding stock, vs the AR which has the buffer tube in the buttstock.

I'm not sure about the sites. A maximum site radius would be great, from the rear of the receiver to the muzzle, but I like the profile of having the front site on the gas block, like the FAL. The muzzle could be threaded for a common muzzle attachment, and you could keep a variety available. They could include a muzzle brake for minimizing recoil, a flash hider when you cared less about recoil than muzzle flash, and then varieties of each. Even a suppressor if you decided to go NFA.

 

I don't think full auto is in the picture. It's tempting to consider that this could have military applications, but I'm ruling that out myself. One thing I guess I should have specified is that this has to be a LEGAL setup for a civilian to own privately.

[Juggernaut 11,054]

All that and FREE!

[Crow 2]

This here....

 

 

unfortunately it is in pieces.

 

I'm digging my Saiga 308 actually.

[AegisDei 2]

This here....

 

what is that?

Edited March 6, 2007 by AegisDei

[loki0629 55]

Interesting question BRG3. I think ultimately it will boil down to the shooter. I've known people that literally couldn't hit the broad side of the barn with a pistol but could perform surgery with an M240G.

 

Personally, my ultimate rifle will be the one that I'm holding in my hand at the time. No seriously, I mean it. I realized a long time ago that every weapon system is only going to be as good as the operator because after all, it is only a tool. I am better off devoting my time improving my personal skills than searching for the perfect tool. Put it this way, give me a mallet, chisels, and a block of marble and I might be able to carve my name into it. With the same tools Michelangelo created the David masterpiece.

 

To quote the Rifleman's Creed:

"My rifle and myself know that what counts in this war is not the rounds we fire, the noise of our burst, nor the smoke we make. We know it is the hits that count. We will hit..."

 

So there it is. The ultimate rifle is the one that enables me to hit my target. So that could be my Saiga .308 or anything in Uncle Sam's arsenal or the arsenal of anyone we are fighting with at the time. Basically, I'm trying to stick to one of Sun Tzu's tenets which is "know yourself".

 

GunnyR

 

P.S.

If we're talking zombie infestation though then all bets are off and Sun Tzu can go screw his undead self. I'll take a Saiga 12 with as many and as large mags as I can get, plus an M79 blooper with flechette and beehive rounds. Double O and slugs for the Saiga in mixed loads. Does a flamethrower count as a rifle?

[roscoe 0]

I would love an folding stocked Saiga in 6.5 Grendel, with a decent peep sight that kept zero. To me, it would hit the sweet spot for caliber, portability, reliability, and accuracy. You could use it for so many things, including hunting, self-defense, truck rifle, you name it. Add a scope rail if you want longer distance shooting. For the purposes of the fantasy assume 6.5 Grendel is $80/1000.

Edited March 6, 2007 by roscoe

[jeffmack 0]

I hear good things about 25-06.

[Skull 0]

I want a Camp .45 with an integrated suppressed barrel and a Pro-Mag 40 round drum.

[Bvamp 604]

the ultimate rifle would not use ammunition, would have nearly unlimited range, and wouldnt weigh hardly anything, AND be indestructable.

 

after that? I have to agree with gunnyR on this one. interesting that Im not the only one who has read "the art of war".

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Again, I don't mean the "Omnipotent Rifle", or the most "****ing cool rifle" I mean a realistic and practical rifle that can combine the most uses into one gun.

 

If a pistol cal round serves most of your rifle needs, then sure, have a carbine with a drum. Actually the MP5s in 10mm have been used at some pretty impressive ranges, so that sort of thing wouldn't be a terrible idea.

 

Oh, and this thread was for the "Ultimate Rifle", not the "Ultimate Gun". The "Ultimate Shotgun" can have its own thread.

Edited March 6, 2007 by BattleRifleG3

[JumiKuula 1]

Gas piston is one main point I would list as "must have". Second would be accurate, easy to get and pleasant to shoot ammo. Either 6.5 Grendel or .308. Grendel flies straight and is accurate but .308 is easier to make low-recoil with muzzle brake. .308 is also so easy to find and get I would prefer it over 30-06 when trying to keep weight in somekind of limits and considering magazines availlable. FAL, BREN, G3 and M14 to mention few most reliable mags...

 

But, with gas piston long range accuracy suffers and G3 PSG, AR-10 and Barrett have benefit on their side by having symmertrical forces to barrel when firing. FAL, M14 and AK have one sided force bending barrel when piston pushes slide and opposite force, of course, bends barrel. (I don't mean these aren't accurate but hard to make shoot small groups on looo-ong distances.) I would design symmetrical gas piston system to gain accuracy. Why? Because rifle is ment to hit what seen through sights. Either two piston symmetry or ring-piston like shotguns have around mag tube. Anyway this means two piston rods to keep forces symmetrical. This leads to closed receiver which would also be stated by better stability when using scope or long sight radius iron sights. Barrel would be ~18" to keep rifle balanced and less front heavy. SPR-profile would fit since FA is out of my point of view. Still if using rotating bolt forces to receiver stay small enough to to allow aluminium to be used and after milling few ones they could be forged of extruded for larger quantities. Bolt itself would be stongest geometry with smooth form for cartridge to get throught BE in feeding, meaning triangle. Many bolt rifles have triangle and they are known to be tough and reliable. ...All that I'm after. Ejection HAS to be fixed or tilting force controlled lever for me. -Those are the most reliable ones and won't have possibility to jam or break it's spring like in AR15. Racking handle on left for right hander and ability to use it as forward assist is enough for my wishes. No matter if it is aside of receiver or front as in G3. Neither does it matter if moving with slide of stays still until pulled. FAL-version would please my needs.

 

Lower part of receiver would have magwell and firing group but use either enough aluminium or proper steel to make it strong enough to take the pounding of slide and stress of recoil. FAL-type lower would atract and it will last long. L1A1 ergonomics in controls and AR15 firing group inside making huge variety of set-ups to choose from. Magwell type would deffinitely be straight push and with ambideux mag-release.

 

Buttstock either good ergonomic FAL, SIG or BAR or telescopic but solid. I don't find any use for folding stock so spring could find its place there... Pistol grip I find to be best option for all-arounder. But angle of pistol grip would be near G3 to make it better to shoot prone than FAL and AR15. Front grip would be either FF-round tube or triangle to get better grip. FF because accuracy speaks.

 

Adjustable gas: Leak or choke? To me choke feels better. If wanting to use silencer (Sorry, I know it's not easy to have those in USA... ) choke is better keeping the sound in instead of letting it out.

 

 

Still if I could get BAR I would modify it to semi to show how fast it can go in IPSC. FAL is fine and can go fast but BAR has more soul... FAL is not slow...

 

 

-JumiKuula aka JamShot

[Crow 2]

what is that?

 

THAT is a plain ole M-14 in a Navy SEAL developed SAGE Enhanced Battle Rifle chassis. Mechanically beds the action. 308 round. I have two barrel lengths, 18" and 22". I prefer the 22" for the "Ultimate Rifle". I can shoot the nuts offa gnat at 500 yards with this sucker, if I only had a decent receiver.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I still think mine was perfect... you said it was "MY" perfect weapon... and that is precisely what I desire in a weapon... I would SELL ALL OTHER weapons I own to have the one I described.

 

Maybe even all my fishing equipment too...

 

I could do anything I wanted with such a rifle... hunt, blast, plink... I dont wanna sweat the small stuff...

 

Who cares which side the gas piston is on? I dont have one to worry about... Grips? hey... whatever works... Magazines? Screw that... belt fed, baby... open receiver? upper open? lower open?? Who cares... minigun. one style of receiver. It works.

 

Seems a lot SIMPLER choice to me...

 

 

 

 

[BattleRifleG3 16]

With your followup explanation, I guess you were right on with your minigun. Me, I'm not sure I'd take a minigun over a battle rifle for everyday use, even if restrictions and ammunition supply weren't an issue.

 

One thing you don't get with your ultimate rifle is an anti-gravity support for it.

[KySoldier 2]

Again, I don't mean the "Omnipotent Rifle", or the most "****ing cool rifle" I mean a realistic and practical rifle that can combine the most uses into one gun.

 

OK....how about an HK 416 with interchangeable magazine wells allowing it to accept other HK mags of different calibers with all those uppers chambered in rifle rounds also capable of accepting belts, a mating between the Shrike and M249 SAW. Or is that to "mudular" for everybody?

[macbeau 902]

I may sound like I am playing to the audience, but my 16" S-308 kinda fills the bill as far as what I am looking for in an all-around rifle. Until I got that, my Galil ARM came pretty close, although it's kinda heavy for what it is and mine is chambered for 5.56, not .308.

The S-308 is an auto loader with awesome gas system. The weight is good at around 7.5lbs unloaded. Takes and holds easily removable optics fairly well. Really good, but not f***'in incredible, accuracy with surplus ammo. Easy to work on and maintain. Decent iron sights (on mine anyway). Parts are readily available and upgrades are generally easy and inexpensive. The 8-round factory mags are reliable, modifiable to 10-rounders and sufficient to hunt with. An now 20-rounders are available. Hell - even the FBMG 20-round mags are a bargian, considering what factory GALIL .308 mag go for ($100+) and the fact that FBMG is the only game in town. They have the market cornered and complete mags are still only $45.

I have often wondered what a S-308 (or AK stuff in general) would be like if someone built one with modern materials and technologies. By that I mean stuff like a carbon fiber or injected moulded receiver (with steel inserts in the proper places), titanium trunnions, a Christiansen-like barrel (carbon-fiber wrapped over a thin steel barrel), an AR-style mag well that'd take FAL, G3 AND M-14 mags interchangably. Maybe a better Perhaps even a different top cover arrangement made out of injected plastic, or something - with an integrated rail....

Just typing out loud...

[Tokageko 8]

A modified Garand.

 

I would make one change to it. I would want an M14 style short-stroke piston out there at the end of the barrel, and for the op-rod to be appropriately shortened. Reason: Less sensitivity to port pressure. In other words, you'd be able to fire big 220 grain round nose bullets without bending the op-rod. It would allow one to take full advantage of the 30-06's incredible flexibility. Everything else about it is good as is.

 

Edit:

 

1. I wrote this before reading any of the posts in this thread. Thus, any similarity between my post and BRG3's is purely coincidental.

 

2. For optics, I'd like a scope with enough eye relief to keep the occular out of the way of the ejection/loading port, in QD rings, on a base attached to the barrel ahead of the receiver. The Scope wouldn't be in danger from flying brass, and it would be centered over the bore.

 

Edit:

 

3. Correct the optics thing.

Edited March 7, 2007 by Tokageko

[6500rpm 670]

A gas trap AR or HK 416 in a .30 cal or larger round. Best of both worlds in several ways in my mind, or as posted, a tricked out ole' M14. Select fire. Peep sights and a decent mounting platform for a scope or other wears.

Pimp my gun

Almost forgot, since BRG3 posted this, a really nice set of wood wears (unless we go AR style).

Edited March 7, 2007 by 6500rpm

[ironhead7544 35]

Steyr Scout with 10 shot mags.

[greatmoose 4]

I'd go with either the S-308, or maybe a 308 enfield. The S-308 is pretty obvious, but the enfield has a lot going for it as well. Detachable 12-rd mags, relatively easy to scope, decent sights, super-fast action, bayonet lug (just in case), pretty good accuracy for a 308.

[JumiKuula 1]

...enfield has a lot going for it as well. Detachable 12-rd mags, relatively easy to scope, decent sights, super-fast action, bayonet lug (just in case), pretty good accuracy for a 308.

 

And can be modified to accept BREN mags if normal isn't enough.

 

 

-JumiKuula aka JamShot

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Would want the 303 version if using Bren mags.

 

I agree that the Saiga-308 is pretty darn close. I had thought for some time about building the "better battle rifle" before moving on to the "ultimate battle rifle".

[macbeau 902]

I guess my "Ulitmate Rifle" would be an FNC in .308 that was made with material so that the overall weight was around 6.5lbs - 7lbs unloaded, with about a 18.5" - 20" barrel, and tritium night sights. It would also need to accept G3as well as FAL mags, to be "Ultimate!".

[M-14 mags would be too difficult in the engineering to add to that, given the geometry and lock-up]

 

The FNC comes about as close to combining the best features of the AK with the best of the AR of any rifle I have encountered. The FNC would've thrived if it had had a falred mag well and had a 1-9 twist [instead of the 1-7 that limited it to 62 grainers - and heavier], as it was...

(IIWAD - I have owned 2 fixed stock FNC's in the last 25-odd years and settled on the AK platform because of them (It uses an AK-like gas piston and boly arrangement). For some reason, the "as issued" FNC left me wanting... That's when I got my Galil. I guess utility, at least in my book, out weighed function - though both are very capable rifles...)

[dodgeturbointerceptor 1]

I just built my "IT" rifle.

 

It's definitely tested by the best in A-stan, and Iraq. The Mk-12 series SPR's.

 

This is a Mod 0 Mk-12.

 

Look em up. Good shit. Retardedly great accuraccy from an AR, with 77gr 5.56 ammo.

 

I've seen plenty of these in Iraq. And I've heard the AAR's ( After Action Reports) about there use. Tasty-ass rifle!

[Red-9 0]

I know this may come off as the Euro-trashy response, but the rifle build that would make my day would be an SL8, modified to accept G36 mags, with a G36K forend, and G36C carry handle/rail. (Think SL9SD looking)

 

and since this would only be possible if I had massive wads of cash, why not throw in a Leupold MR-T scope on a LaRue mount that allows for a Docter sight on the side?

 

It would also be pretty swank if one could have a couple other barrels and calibers, perhaps heavy barrels with fluting and threading for a supressor.

Obviously, I've never seen any SL8s in 6.8SPC, 6.5Grendel, 458 SOCOM or any of those other 5.56-platform calibers, and seeing as the rich-prick market isn't terribly big, I may never.

 

...but boy, that would be sweet!