AGP 10 round mags: anyone else having problems?

[Illuminaughty 0]

Got the new feed lips before I even tried 'em, I tried a few 3 inch magnum 00 buck and (other than collapsing my romanian wire folder buttstock while shooting) it jammed up a few times during the mag, and the mag seems to be looser in the mag well than I remember. No damage to the tabs on the mag, just wondering if I got an ill fitting one or if they're all having problems.

 

I'll get around to trying regular 2 3/4 shells in a couple days, and I'll add how that goes to this post. IIRC, at first I couldn't move the bolt back with the mag in the gun, then I had two failure to feed's while firing.

 

[Juggernaut 11,054]

I don't know if this will help you, but there was a similar thread I saw the other day. See if any of that info helps out.

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=15320

 

If not. let us know. Good Luck!

[Shep 0]

Recieved the ten I ordered and out of those ;

 

5 functioned without problem.

3 have sticky followers which hang up somtimes.

1 is feeding the rounds up at the wrong angle and they are hitting the bottom of the breech and hanging up.

1 the feed lips were improperly installed and the mag won't insert at all.

 

This is just from loading some rounds in each mag and hand cycling the action. Appears that the problems are all centered around assembly or a need for some dry lube and should be easy enough to deal with. Considering the cost, the otherwise good workmanship and the pressure that is being put on AGP by customers to get these out ASAP, I'm not dissapointed in what I've gotten and am eager to get out to the range on Monday to try them out for real.

 

One thing that I was surprised by was that despite the longer length of these mags I was still able to rock&lock them in place without them hitting my verticle foregrip. It's placed almost all the way back on the rail and I thought it would have to be moved forward but they cleared with no problem.

 

 

Shep

[hoop762 0]

the only problem with my 10 round mag is only being able to fit 9 in there....

[twinhairdryers 2]

the only problem with my 10 round mag is only being able to fit 9 in there....

 

I have yet to have my fixes verified, but...................

when I recieved my first 4 mags

 

1 functioned without problem.

3 have sticky followers which hang up somtimes.

3 is feeding the rounds up at the wrong angle and they are hitting the bottom of the breech and hanging up.

3 the feed lips were improperly installed and the mag won't insert at all.

 

since then, i dremelled the angle of departure or said round so as to point the trajectory up and into the chamber. trying to avoid what you and I found about shells diving into the bottom of the chamber due to a low angle going in.

 

my test results so far were limited to the range I shoot at during the day (3 center fire rounds mag at any time). all was good but limited to the top 3 rounds..

 

On top of this I did dis-assemble the mags, ran 600grit paper across all internal follower contact areas, and put the #2 pencil to both parts for a dry lube attempt. I had a noticable increase in hand feeding speed after I did that step. I was hoping it would solve my proplem of slow shell movement after recoil to move the next shell to topof mag to chamber.

Edited March 10, 2007 by twinhairdryers

[hkusp45 8]

I personally thought I had a mag issue when I first shot mine but I found that it was an ammo issue. The Remington high brass case would bind up with the one seated below it. Other brands seemed to function fine including Federal LE Low Recoil Buckshot. Best part is I'm able to get it by the case for $90.00 shipped! I also had no problems with skeet loads or anything else!

[jor-el 0]

Wally world ammo has caused me more problems than mag issues. The dual purpose #6? Even on setting 2 the bolt won't cycle.

Estate reduced recoil buckshot runs fine for me. Who sells it now?

[Azrial 1,091]

I am very disappointed to read of all these problems. I guess that this may seem "ungrateful" to some of you from what I have read, but $60 is a lot for a piece of plastic. I expect it to work.

 

I could have made a mag myself, out of paper mache, if I do not care if it worked. Hopefully my luck will be better.

[kresk 10,063]

I am very disappointed to read of all these problems. I guess that this may seem "ungrateful" to some of you from what I have read, but $60 is a lot for a piece of plastic. I expect it to work.

 

I could have made a mag myself, out of paper mache, if I do not care if it worked. Hopefully my luck will be better.

 

Remember you're not going to hear from 95% of the people whose mags work properly, but you will hear from almost every single individual who even thinks he is having a problem, and then some of those are the ammo and not the mag itself. It is more appropriate to look at things from the bigger picture to obtain a more accurate impression. Just my 2 cents.

[trukreltrog 8]

Yes my 2nd run mags have problems. I took all 3 apart, sanded, and penciled the inside of the mag and follower. Went out today, found out they may be more ammo related, maybe not. I ran the Winchester super handicap thru without a hitch. After I turned the gas setting to #2. But the S&B OO buck still hangs up in the mag. Won't go up so the bolt can catch it. But it does feed fine thru my 5 rounder, so I don't know. Have to buy some other rounds to test. Not real happy with them yet, but it is a lot of fun to dump 10 rounds of 12 guage. I'll be satisfied when I find some ammo that works (preferably OO buck).

[TacticalResponse 0]

Everyone is sanding and lubing to make these mags work, when its almost entirely a mag spring problem.

 

 

The springs used in these mags are not holding up. The gauge of the spring wire is not heavy enough.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Really?I have not had problems with my 3 10 rounder.

[TacticalResponse 0]

I was one of the early purchasers of the first batch. I kept one of my mags fully loaded from day one and the other ones unloaded. Around two weeks ago I fired the fully loaded mag and had nothing but problems with it feeding. At home I disasembled the mag that I had feeding problems with, along with an unused mag. The springs were not even close to being the same length.

 

 

A heavier gauge spring is needed. If anyone owns any UASA-12 10rd mags take them apart and compare springs.

 

The problem is fixable.

 

 

Now my attackers will be merciless for telling the truth.

[Fault Zone 0]

Edited March 13, 2007 by Fault Zone

[hkusp45 8]

My failure to feed problems were soley the high brass casing on the remington express casing. Everything else worked including other high brass, it just seemed the brass on the remington was a bit longer and caused it to bind up. The AGP mags seem to be just fine but because of the higher capacity and curvature of the mag it may affect certain casings. I'm no expert but my theory for this is the fact that the remington that I did have problems with would cycle without issue in the five rounder and in the ten rounder I would get scrapes on the brass of the top shell and the next round. Just my 2 cents.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

I had bought 1 AGP 10 shot from E-bay when the mag spring lips were being replaced. The other 2 I just got a week ago.How early were the problem spring ones would you say?I leave 3 of my 5 rounders loaded for home defense but not the 10 rounders......yet.

 

"PS"I always heard they seriously overbuilt the springs to avoid this.I put a 5 rounder spring in for shits and giggles and it would still hand cycle with the wimpier springs,though they are shorter than the 10 rounder springs....

Edited March 12, 2007 by THE_HUNTER

[TacticalResponse 0]

I had bought 1 AGP 10 shot from E-bay when the mag spring lips were being replaced. The other 2 I just got a week ago.How early were the problem spring ones would you say?I leave 3 of my 5 rounders loaded for home defense but not the 10 rounders......yet.

 

"PS"I always heard they seriously overbuilt the springs to avoid this.I put a 5 rounder spring in for shits and giggles and it would still hand cycle with the wimpier springs,though they are shorter than the 10 rounder springs....

 

 

I had one of my ten rounders that worked fine when it was new. However I loaded it full for home defense. It was the first batch. Imagine my shock when I took it out with several friends and it failed to feed. I'm keeping my 7.62x39 AK around for home defense as I can't trust the ten rounder until I experiment with some different springs.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Any body else have this problem?

[Gunfighter 1]

Hello,

I got to take my pards{wink,wink}S-12 out to the range today along with 4 of the AGP 10rd. mags. I had left all 4 mags fully loaded for three days prior --------- long story short -------- shot a mix of slugs,OO buck and both low and high brass AND HAD 100% reliableity No FTF or anything !!!!!!!!! All 4 mags were a bitch to get locked in the gun but I still have problems inserting a 5 rounder I just could not get excited and practice loading a 5 rd. mag ---------- now that I got the AGPs , I will work on the "roll & rack" method of mag changes.

 

I guess I need to order a extended mag release from Jeric and am thinking about a BHO also.

 

Rick-16 , thanks for the great shotgun !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Gunfighter

[Gunfighter 1]

TrikerJay ---- thanks for getting me in on the group buy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Illuminaughty 0]

Okay, so after taking the saiga partially apart I noticed the rear notch on the mag that holds it in the gun isn't low enough and its wobbling so that it CAN be high enough to jam the gun. If I put the mag on my knee while it's in the gun, it WILL NOT cycle. It stops dead right there. If I put my 5 rounder in, it cycles fine. I officially have a FUBAR'ed magazine. This, along with the purported spring problems (which I believe because I kept mine loaded all the time and some of the jams were it barely pushing the bullet up or not pushing it up enough) really has me pissed about blowing money on one. Will AGP replace my magazine or replace the spring with something decent? Will they do ANYTHING to rectify their shitty product? Are they on this board?

 

75 bucks isn't something I can just toss around on an experiement to see if a mag will work or not, I'd rather a few 5 rounders than this POS!!!

[mike12345 18]

I own 20 of these mags now, I havent seen them in person yet. I'll be very PO'd if when I get home they dont work, someone will be getting some hate mail.

[reoiv 1]

My mags work fine course I only have 4 of the 10 rounders.

 

Good to know about long term mag storage. May just leave the 5 rounder full then or use my XD instead as the home defense weapon.

[smithwr3 0]

Got mine in the mail last night. I'll try to make it to the range this weekend and give a report.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

The problem is with the Russian guns not being exactly alike.I have 2 S12's and one fits up so tight with the AGP mags I had to file the tabs on the outside down a bit to get it to latch in.The other is very loose.Mags are loose in that one even with factory 5 rounders.My 2 new AGP's work well in the loose gun still but an older one from batch #1 seems to jam up on hand cycle while the mage is pushed up by my knee too.The tight gun is my converted one from RRA and every mag runs great in it.The loosy is the non-converted from EEA.The 10 rounders are the shiza for the converted guns!

[TacticalResponse 0]

I own 20 of these mags now, I havent seen them in person yet. I'll be very PO'd if when I get home they dont work, someone will be getting some hate mail.

 

 

I'm not implying that the 10 rounders don't work. Just don't keep them fully loaded for several month's.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

I wonder how the spring would do with only 9 rounds loaded?I can only load my mags with 9 rounds loaded on a closed bolt anyway.10 is only possible on an open bolt,not the best tactically sound when you have a loaded mag of 10 with an empty chamber, trying to jack the first round in....if it does chamber,the round looks like Swiss cheese.

[Azrial 1,091]

Well my AGP magazines have finally arrived. A long time from the two weeks I was quoited verbally on the phone. But, they are here. Now to the next problem. They do not work. They do not fit my gun.

 

The front of the mag locks, but it is tight, but the rear does not. I have 3 Five Round Magazines of of which one fits very tightly. Plus the 10 Ten Round Magazines, of which none lock in at the rear at all. I am very disappointed. I am going to look over the site and see if I can make them work, if not I will return them, get my money back. I will be calling AGP in the morning and see what there position is on this. It the mod to the five round magazines the one that you all have employed on the Ten round Mags?

[Veen 0]

I wrote this for another firearms forum I post on, since we had a group buy going and a couple other people had the same jamming problem I did. My other solutions I was going to try were to epoxy the follower into a shape that shoved the angle of the shells into the proper location, or to dremel the rear of the follower down to get that angle. However, that would have meant that only the magazines I personally addressed would have worked fine, and in a worst case scenario, AGP or other magazines salvaged might not actually work until I took the time to modify them, which might not be possible.

 

This is NOT a "easy" or "minor" fix to this issue that I'm about to show you. In fact, I've only ever heard various people mention doing this to your Saiga as a fix, and due to the potential to FUBAR it with headspacing issues or otherwise making the firearm inoperable, I had a lot of trouble trying it. It was only when I had $400 spare to buy a new one incase this one made the gun not work that I decided to try this.

 

I'm also sure Tony Rumore or some other professional gunsmith will probably come in here and tell me that this modification is not safe/proper, or way too much, but this is how I fixed it. I had 1 Russian 8rd magazine that worked fine, and 5 AGP magazines that would constantly jam up due to the problem I describe below. After doing this fix, ALL my AGP magazines worked fine, along with my original Russian 8 rounder. I even took this thing out to the middle of nowhere and let about 5-8 people aside from myself throw roughly 400 rounds of birdshot, buckshot, etc etc through it. As detailed below, the only jams were with underpowered birdshot which happens with the Russian magazines anyway, and slugs, which were due to the follower not pushing up in time.

 

So from a direct quote from the forum I originally posted this to, here you go:

 

----------------------------------------

 

Saiga Tuning - Course Number: WECSOG103

 

To start, I must remind you that this is some VERY imprecise work I'm detailing here. In the spirit of the Wile E. Coyote School of Gunsmithing, I had a problem with my firearm, and I took a dremel to it to correct what I saw as a basic design flaw. I had no templates to go with, no angle guides, in fact no measuring other than what can be done with the human eyeball went into this.

 

As such, I have to remind you that this could VERY easily fuck your gun for life if you fuck it up, and I take no responsibility if you do. However, I will be explaining what you have to watch out for, so as long as you think you're careful enough to do that much, you should be fine, especially since it's built off the same design idea as the AK-47, so even if you don't do everything perfectly, it will probably still work. Also, these drawings are not to scale, and in some cases are exaggerated a bit to show you exactly what I'm talking about. You'll see right away the parts I'm detailing when you crack your gun open and start taking a look, but don't try to print these and use them as exact templates.

 

Now that the warnings and syllabus are out of the way, here's the problem: The Izhmash Saiga-12 came out around early 2000, and was picked up for exportation to the United States by a company called European American Arms. Being the first off of the production line, they had underwent probably very meager factory testing for functionality. The magazines designed for it fit in at a very precise angle, and when the bolt was slammed forward, rounds would pop from the magazine into the chamber without the need for any sort of shell guide or feeding assist.

 

This works great.... if you're using factory magazines which still run upwards of $100 a piece for the 8 rounders. Using AGP's magazines that DUT is group buying for us, is entirely hit and miss. Some of them happen to sit at the proper angle and have no issues feeding, and some of them, like mine and a select few of you, happen to sit too low. If you were lucky enough to get a later EAA Saiga-12 or a RAA Saiga-12, the barrel came pre-ramped, and feeding shouldn't be an issue. If you WEREN'T lucky enough to get one of these, then that's why you're here today, read on!

 

So, what is happening inside your firearm when it jams the shit up like this? Well what happens is the bolt strips a round from the top of the magazine, and theoretically shoves it into the chamber to fit just fine. More often than not with the AGP magazines, the bottom of the round will hit the bottom of the barrel. Being a flat surface running into another equally flat surface, 9 times out of 10 instead of popping up and into the chamber, you get this lovely scenario:

 

 

This is, needless to say, a "Bad Thing." This is the last thing you want happening if you actually have to use your firearm. Even if you never plan to use it in home defense, this is the last thing you EVER want happening, because it's a bitch to clear. From this cutaway side view you see, there is a clear design flaw in this machine:

 

 

And this is how to correct it. The area in green is what you should safely be able to angle it at. Before you do this though, turn the thing over and pop the dust cover off and work the bolt over and over. You'll see how it sinks pretty deep past the barrel guide to lock a round into battery. As long as it's supported on all sides you should be good. The factory barrel ramps are probably ramped even less than half this and seem to work fine. However, in true WECSOG tradition, I figured I didn't want it to work "fine," I wanted it to work MORE than fine, and took about this much metal off. Ideally when you do this, you will want to take a very small amount off, clean the shit up, put the shotgun back together, and cycle about 50 rounds through to see if any are still jamming. If they are, go farther. If not, you're probably good, just clean it up and leave it as is. Top view:

 

 

This is looking down at the bottom half of the barrel. This shows you what section of the barrel you should be ramping. Basically, ramp it from the edge of the guide, to about a couple millimeters below that notch there. Also, don't touch that notch if you can; it's your bottom extractor's guide channel, and it really does help out quite a bit in making sure the firearm works reliably. Once more, most of the Saiga-12s I see with a factory ramp made in have about HALF of this. this is about what I took out, and it's worked flawlessly since then, so you clearly have a huge buffer room for error here. Once more, ideally you want to do this the right way: Remove material, 50 round cycle test, repeat. When you ARE all done, you should have something like this:

 

 

The two things you want to watch out for are that your ramp is nice and smooth and doesn't have any nasty burrs or anything left, and that there is enough left on the barrel guide to completely surround the bolt face when it is shut. It does go rather deep in there, but you want to take special care to not go too deep in. Having an unsupported barrel section in a 12ga just seems like a really bad idea to me. Also don't forget that you should leave that extractor channel alone. It may already have a ramp started into it which is fine, just make sure that when you're hacking away with your rotary tool that you don't change the shape of that channel. As long as it's still nice and straight, you'll be fine.

 

Some general hints when doing this:

 

- Go slow. Go VERY slow. Set aside an evening to do this and a bunch of rounds that you don't mind fucking up by cycling over and over. Do it the right way and don't take off too much material.

 

- Pop the dust cover when doing this, just so you have more light. You could lock the bolt back and do it that way like I did, but it's much simpler to just remove the dust cover entirely, and possibly even bolt carrier and piston.

 

- Get a Dremel Flexible Shaft and some conical dremel bits for this job. It makes it infinitely easier to maneuver around in those tight quarters, and prevents you from having to strip the entire damn firearm down to get a dremel in to where you need it.

 

- The extractor channel is offset. Base the center of the ramp on the center of the barrel, NOT off of the extractor channel. You can stick the gun upright and level in a vice and then place a ball bearing in the barrel guide to see where center is and work from there.

 

- The premise to this is similar to a 1911's feed ramp. You still want a flat gap in the barrel guide so that rounds "jump" up into the barrel and don't just slam straight into the second flat area of the barrel itself that you CAN'T touch. Just enough material to prevent that initial jam is all you really need to take out.

 

Edit: Real Pictures, huge-ass hi-res glory:

 

http://veen.thexq.net/Forums/saigabarrel5.JPG

http://veen.thexq.net/Forums/saigabarrel6.JPG

 

As you can see, I went a bit up the sides for this, gently tapering it off to give it a nice smooth end, and minimizing anything else for the shells to catch on. The end of the extractor guide channel was already tapered off like that up near the barrel guide on my firearm for some reason. I have no idea why. However, you can clearly see that I removed a SHIT TON of material from this thing, and it still works fine. If I had to do it again, I'd definitely do it the "right" way and just take off as much as is needed, and then give it one quick once-over again to clear up any burrs. Remember, you can always remove more material, you can never add any back.

 

Also in that last picture it looks like I just angled the ramp straight up, but it's a trick of light/angle. I can assure you it is quite angled, and not just flat.

 

-----------------------------------

 

As for the slugs, I suspect that is actually a magazine issue, as my Russian mag fires them just fine. I'm going to acquire a spare AGP magazine from a friend of mine and dremel the everlasting shit out of it to see if I can remove almost every possible bit of friction. I'm almost convinced at this point that the ONLY problem the slugs cause with the magazine is not coming up into the chamber fast enough, due to the fact that the cases of any slugs I've fired have REALLY weird gouging on the sides of the hulls, and the fact that racking the bolt manually after each shot would load the rounds up just fine.

 

I'll state again once more to DO THIS VERY SLOWLY AND PROPERLY UNLIKE WHAT I DID, EVEN THOUGH MINE WORKS FLAWLESSLY! I'll also state again that YOU CAN ALWAYS TAKE MORE METAL AWAY, BUT ADDING IT IS IMPOSSIBLE! The process isn't exactly difficult, and I think I outlined the basic concept behind it, but if you're uncomfortable permanently altering your firearm, don't do it. Alter the magazines again.

 

Hopefully this helps some people out. I've heard of this fix before just in casual passing on the Saiga-12 forums, but I've never seen pictures of it actually done. This was concocted by myself after closely observing the problem the AGP magazines caused, and realizing that theoretically every magazine ever could be fixed by altering the design of the firearm instead of the magazine itself. Mine works perfectly, I've cycled near a thousand rounds by now through the thing both manually and the "fun way," and it's never run into a jam using regular birdshot or buckshot. I trust mine to take main home defense duty, but I take NO RESPONSIBLITY WHATSOEVER IF YOU FUCK YOUR GUN TO HIGH HELL USING THIS METHOD!

 

I hate to have to disclaimer the Hell out of this post, but I'd also hate for somebody to take their newly converted Tromix-Saiga-12 to this method and accidentally render the bottom extractor unusable or end up taking off way more material than they need, causing dangerous headspacing issues and the need to buy a new Saiga-12 to transfer all the conversion parts over to. Do this the right way and do it slow, and your problems should be solved. Do it the wrong way and I take no responsibility for your lack of skill with a dremel/knowledge of firearms.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Veen

[Illuminaughty 0]

My problem is the magazine rear notch has been poorly cut and causes the back ridge of the magazine to ride up into the receiver and lock the bolt, it's feeding fine, when its not blocked by this faulty mag.