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How about This! I'm the 20rd drum guy, HELL YEAH!


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That's right, it's me, hell yeah! :super: I'll keep it quite though. Cobra asked me not to post a live fire video. You can verify that can't you Cobra. :smoke: I wanted to come in incognito but fuck it. And I mean that. I love this forum dearly and come here everyday. But if it means that I have to hide then fuck it. I'm not a little pussy that jumps on the band wagon or some dumb ass that puts their foot in there mouth repeatedly here. You know who you are,, cough,, beerslurp, bob.... ... .... ... ...,,cough I can't beleive how little some of you know. Kiss my ass. Pussies!

Do you believe it is coming now? My name and drums have anymore credit with anyone now.

Enough with that, I really didn't want to cause an uproar here and anybody that read more than just the title of the thread knows that. Like I said, I love this place and I love my saiga-12's. And I promise, I love them even more with drums and "most of you" will too! To those who wanted to attack and shit, your right, there are no drums. But to the rational, please trust me, There will be.

 

But like I said, I will keep it quite, and I will keep my word to Cobra, I will wait to the last minute to post private links and videos and will erase the one I have posted on youtube. Let this thread die. Or all the bb brains can start running there mouths all damn day tomorrow and call there lawyers or Uncle Sam, and even cry tears to their fucking wives. But like I've made clear, regardless if I banned from the community or not, IT IS COMING!!!! Here or there, I don't know. Only this I can say for sure at this point is sooner than later.

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That's right, it's me, hell yeah! I'll keep it quite though. Cobra asked me not to post a live fire video. You can verify that can't you Cobra. I wanted to come in incognito but fuck it. And

Or he is the hero for excersizing our rights that shouldn't have been taken in the first place.

I still can't sleep, I haven't been to bed since I got up Friday about 1:pm after staying up all night Thursday working on and thinking about this. I do understand peoples concerns. I have conce

I received a zillion email from the trhead and plan to answer everyone. I need to go to bed now though. I have been up well over 24hrs. As you can guess it has been a very exciting time for me and I'm ready to crash. Get with everyone that emailed tomorrow, hell maybe Monday. It's been closer to 48hrs.

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Figuring out the obvious legal repercussions of your actions before you fuck over the saiga 12 owners community is not too much to ask. From your previous posts, you obviously have no understanding whatsoever of federal firearms law OR administrative law. What youre doing isnt brave, it's stupid.

 

When AGP got criticized for planning to make 10 rd mags, their response was to CONTACT THE ATF. The ATF said it was fine and they wouldnt reclassify the saiga-12. The ATF also said that more than 10 rounds would NOT be fine.

 

That is all it takes to shut us "whiners" up. Contact the ATF and get their approval. Contrast AGPs actions with your actions.

 

What you need to do is contact the ATF and ask them if they will reclassify the saiga 12 as a destructive device when you start cranking out drums. If they say no, WONDERFUL- I take back everything I have said and you can sign me up for a pile of them. If they say yes, you need to stop your plans and not bring them to market.

 

Can you understand that? Is it too much to ask? Are we being cowardly by asking you not to make legal problems for us?

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I still can't sleep, I haven't been to bed since I got up Friday about 1:pm after staying up all night Thursday working on and thinking about this. I do understand peoples concerns. I have concerns to. Like I said, I always wanted a drum feed hotgun, but who can afford a USAS-12 and streetsweepers are junk, good luck on an AA-12. Here was the chance. But it was on the edge of a knife. It can go either way at this point. Fall in one direction and it's great , fall in the other and it is bad. But I wasn't willing to sit aroud and take a chance of it falling the bad way before I aquired my cheap drum fed 12. And since I had to do it myself, I will make money. But at the same time, rather than looking at in such a bad way look at it this way. Unless you live in gun hating state and 1022 passes, you would not have to hand over your saiga-12 or your drums or mags. You would be granfathered in and not even have to pay the $200 tax stamp. And the drum you just bought for200ish is worth 500 to 800. and your 400 basic saiga-12 would probably fetch 2000. Not that that is a good thing, i would hate for it to get reclassified. If we pull togther we can get 1096 passed and not have to worry about a lot of stuff and would have our pic of anything the world has to offer in semi-auto. But either way, what are your options in a magfeed shotgun, even a world wide market. Not much that beats a saiga! So reguardless of waht happens good or bad with the laws, you can still have a drum fed saiga. Unless you live in a hate state. There are only o few of them. I would mave in a second. I no it is easier said than done in some cases and I truly feel for someone with harsh gun laws. But those states are not my state, nor the majority of gun owners and we shouldn't be pressured to restrict ourselves because of a few. There are enough people that want firearms restictions pass for gun owners to try and restrict themselves. All I can say is find a way to move or change the laws in your state.

The rest of us are getting a mother fucking 20rd drum fed 12 gauge saiga shotgun! :super: And that is that. The atf isn't out to get you. Like I said, What scares the ATF more than machinieguns, explosives, whiskey, and 20rd drums is people that act scared of them. Even though the atf isn't out to get you. I do feel it is in our best interest though if things stayed low. But like I said, this ball is rolling and there is no turning back for me. Here or somewhere else. If we could keep it in our ranks here we could saturate ourselves first with the bare minimum in web post. Go through pm's. If I have to go somewhere else it will not be nearly as contained. You could say, "how's them apple dumplins comin along if you want. " or When you gonna take yo momma some chicken, bitch! Hell I don't care But we can work it out. And of course I would become a buisness member and also become the biggest contributor this site has seen. Along with giving everyone here first dib. You banned states don't have a aunt in a friendly state that would love to have one of these as well? It would give you a reason to visit her more often! We can talk about the best approuch for all this.

And last but not least. I was getting rash earlier. I was getting pretty pissed actually. I don't plan "at the moment" to restrict ANY member here from a first shot on a drum. I don't want to argue your issue with this here or anywhere else. If your so scared, don't draw attention by asking for my address and stupid shit like that. Don't speak of it at all. Right now I really need to get to bed. I couldn't with this on my shoulders. I'm sorry for the things I said Beerslurp , Bob ... .... ..... .... Truly!! If this forum still wants me here, I'll be here and a mod can contact me on how they want to persue. Untill then keep the threads quiet on this. Send a pm. If not then I'll just be a roaming non posting no name guest :unsure:

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I still can't sleep, I haven't been to bed since I got up Friday about 1:pm after staying up all night Thursday working on and thinking about this. I do understand peoples concerns. I have concerns to. Like I said, I always wanted a drum feed hotgun, but who can afford a USAS-12 and streetsweepers are junk, good luck on an AA-12. Here was the chance. But it was on the edge of a knife. It can go either way at this point. Fall in one direction and it's great , fall in the other and it is bad. But I wasn't willing to sit aroud and take a chance of it falling the bad way before I aquired my cheap drum fed 12. And since I had to do it myself, I will make money. But at the same time, rather than looking at in such a bad way look at it this way. Unless you live in gun hating state and 1022 passes, you would not have to hand over your saiga-12 or your drums or mags. You would be granfathered in and not even have to pay the $200 tax stamp. And the drum you just bought for200ish is worth 500 to 800. and your 400 basic saiga-12 would probably fetch 2000. Not that that is a good thing, i would hate for it to get reclassified. If we pull togther we can get 1096 passed and not have to worry about a lot of stuff and would have our pic of anything the world has to offer in semi-auto. But either way, what are your options in a magfeed shotgun, even a world wide market. Not much that beats a saiga! So reguardless of waht happens good or bad with the laws, you can still have a drum fed saiga. Unless you live in a hate state. There are only o few of them. I would mave in a second. I no it is easier said than done in some cases and I truly feel for someone with harsh gun laws. But those states are not my state, nor the majority of gun owners and we shouldn't be pressured to restrict ourselves because of a few. There are enough people that want firearms restictions pass for gun owners to try and restrict themselves. All I can say is find a way to move or change the laws in your state.

The rest of us are getting a mother fucking 20rd drum fed 12 gauge saiga shotgun! :super: And that is that. The atf isn't out to get you. Like I said, What scares the ATF more than machinieguns, explosives, whiskey, and 20rd drums is people that act scared of them. Even though the atf isn't out to get you. I do feel it is in our best interest though if things stayed low. But like I said, this ball is rolling and there is no turning back for me. Here or somewhere else. If we could keep it in our ranks here we could saturate ourselves first with the bare minimum in web post. Go through pm's. If I have to go somewhere else it will not be nearly as contained. You could say, "how's them apple dumplins comin along if you want. " or When you gonna take yo momma some chicken, bitch! Hell I don't care But we can work it out. And of course I would become a buisness member and also become the biggest contributor this site has seen. Along with giving everyone here first dib. You banned states don't have a aunt in a friendly state that would love to have one of these as well? It would give you a reason to visit her more often! We can talk about the best approuch for all this.

And last but not least. I was getting rash earlier. I was getting pretty pissed actually. I don't plan "at the moment" to restrict ANY member here from a first shot on a drum. I don't want to argue your issue with this here or anywhere else. If your so scared, don't draw attention by asking for my address and stupid shit like that. Don't speak of it at all. Right now I really need to get to bed. I couldn't with this on my shoulders. I'm sorry for the things I said Beerslurp , Bob ... .... ..... .... Truly!! If this forum still wants me here, I'll be here and a mod can contact me on how they want to persue. Untill then keep the threads quiet on this. Send a pm. If not then I'll just be a roaming non posting no name guest :unsure:

Although I am a newbie, I am also a Saiga 12 owner and agree with what "Beerslurpy" is saying. I believe that what he is asking for is reasonable. Dont get me wrong, I do believe in a capitalist society where people have an opportunity to make money from innovative ideas and hard work. The main questions is this. What would be the harm in probing the ATF on there stance with 20 round drums, as well as, the potential that they might reclassify the saiga-12 if 20 round drums were available and in use? If they dont have a problem with it, then you have an opportunity to make a tidy profit from your "innovative ideas and hard work." If they do have a problem with it and there could be consequences, then you have to decide if producing your product is worth the potential effect on the Saiga community. One thing is certain, some nasty verbal exchanges have been posted on this thread, as well as, the thread that got all of this going in the first place. It is disppointing that some of the members of this website could fall prey to an age old tactic of "divide and conquer" as a result. I say this because we are all supposed to be united in having "the right to keep and bear arms." If we dont tackle this together, we have the potential to lose what our forefathers worked so hard for. Just something to think about.

Edited by boilerman
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Look at the Akins Accelerator as an example. Even if he gets it approved the ATF can always change their mind after the fact. Probably better to focus on getting the other gun legislation past. If he's going to build it regardless of the consequences then you better buy the drum and the ten rounders and stock pile. The prices of everything will rise if the saiga gets reclassified, and if it doesn't get reclassified you haven't really lost anything.

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Mike, are you bipolar? I am getting a huge manic phase vibe off of you.

 

You seriously need to calm the fuck down and get your shit properly squared away before you take these plans of yours any further.

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Mike, thanks for dropping the bogus name although I almost wish you were some kid right now. You've been around here way to long to be banned, and at this point I don't see any reason to kill this, or any other thread. If your determined to go through with this, and it seems that you are, you might as well keep us informed. You've become the acid test, so to speak.

 

The only two request that I have is that you give us as much heads up as possible before you release them so that in the event that things do change, we can get our Saiga's bought before then (The 1989 AWB killed imports, barrel ban is F'ing up kits coming in right now, I just want to get my prioritys straight on this).

The second is that if you have any insite as to what "really" happened with StonyCreek, then let us know.

They were pretty much where you are now when the dropped the venture like a hot potato and other than internet b.s. I don't know why and I'd rather deal with facts, not speculation.

 

Totally unrelated, if you can't sleep, Melatonin is available as a vitamin supplement and works really well without making you feel drugged out the next day. Better get some rest and keep your head straight.

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The development of this kind of feeding device for the Saiga was eventually going to happen. The s-12 is pretty unique compared to any other shotgun you can get in the US. The kind of people that own them are tinkerers by nature (the ultimate evolution of this being Tromix and those folks). Some just have more skills than others (myself being the latter). If there is enough demand for a drum, someone will figure out a way to do it. There are a lot of creative people out there and many of us have reaped the benefits of their creativity. Let the guy be, if you don't like what he is doing, don't buy his product.

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Wow. I can honestly say that this has me in utter amazement. I belong to a number of firearm forums, and am used to encountering members that I don't always agree with. Also, these forums seem to know no shortage of people with a lack of diplomacy or patience. But, this Mike Davidson guy gives me a REALLY bad vibe. If indeed he has created a working 20 rnd. drum, then he has a certain amount of my admiration. Ammunition feeding devices are tricky and problematic. If I had designed one that I truly felt one could trust his life to, then I would be tremendously proud. What I think I'm seeing here though, is alot of schoolyard posturing and bickering. This behavior is not just on the part of Mike Davidson but I don't appreciate the blanket insults because I am concerned about what will become of this along with almost everyone else. Dude, calm down. Try to look at it from all sides. There are alot of people that get nervous/irritated real quick when they see an obvious threat to what is left of their second amendment rights. Can you assure us that you will or have already checked with the BATFE? I know that hindsight is 20/20 but maybe a better way to have gone about this would be to start asking what people would think about a 20 rnd drum.

I think this would have been alot better than flying in from out of nowhere with this "there coming, like it or not" attitude. I'm probably beating my head against the wall here but once in a great while I can't stop myself from chiming in with my two cents.

Mike, I hope that all works out for you. I hope that you are not on the edge of learning a very hard lesson. I also hope that this works out for the rest of us. Although I believe it won't.

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The problem here is:

 

*kevin from AGP already swore that 11 rounds was a major problem as far as

 

the BATF is concerned. Im assuming that Kevin is not a dishonest sack of shit that lied to us.

 

 

RAA was quoted saying in an old thread that the BATF would reclassify the Saiga 12 as a DD if they

 

even dared to import the 8 round mags. I think we have the legal fence line well established. This

 

drum will likely breach the fence and cause the Sleeping Bear to growl. Mike your about to cost

 

some people their lives. Not everyone is going to hand in their weapons (some states do not allow

 

DDs).

 

Ive read of many people on this board that will not turn them in if they are reclassified and they

 

can't have them in their state (example NY). Im sure you will have alot of sleepless nights knowing

 

you caused the death of fellow Saiga owners. Honest people can not live with serious guilt on their

 

conscious. Keep your pet project out of the spot light, and we all will be much happier.

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Figuring out the obvious legal repercussions of your actions before you fuck over the saiga 12 owners community is not too much to ask. From your previous posts, you obviously have no understanding whatsoever of federal firearms law OR administrative law. What youre doing isnt brave, it's stupid.

 

When AGP got criticized for planning to make 10 rd mags, their response was to CONTACT THE ATF. The ATF said it was fine and they wouldnt reclassify the saiga-12. The ATF also said that more than 10 rounds would NOT be fine.

 

That is all it takes to shut us "whiners" up. Contact the ATF and get their approval. Contrast AGPs actions with your actions.

 

What you need to do is contact the ATF and ask them if they will reclassify the saiga 12 as a destructive device when you start cranking out drums. If they say no, WONDERFUL- I take back everything I have said and you can sign me up for a pile of them. If they say yes, you need to stop your plans and not bring them to market.

 

Can you understand that? Is it too much to ask? Are we being cowardly by asking you not to make legal problems for us?

 

 

 

 

 

 

mike... i'm probably the newest member her... but i agree with slurp....

i had to deal with the atf after getting in troubl for manufacturing dd's... because in highscool i made a 50 cal cannon and used it new years and 4th july for many years. they were more than compliant to work with me and after looking up they prevailing laws they were pleased to give me 2 thumbs up and shoot it to my hearts content...

all beerslurp is asking is for you to call them... they are only the enemy when you force their hands...the demecrats, well you know the rest

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The problem here is:

 

*kevin from AGP already swore that 11 rounds was a major problem as far as

 

the BATF is concerned. Im assuming that Kevin is not a dishonest sack of shit that lied to us.

 

 

RAA was quoted saying in an old thread that the BATF would reclassify the Saiga 12 as a DD if they

 

even dared to import the 8 round mags. I think we have the legal fence line well established. This

 

drum will likely breach the fence and cause the Sleeping Bear to growl. Mike your about to cost

 

some people their lives. Not everyone is going to hand in their weapons (some states do not allow

 

DDs).

 

Ive read of many people on this board that will not turn them in if they are reclassified and they

 

can't have them in their state (example NY). Im sure you will have alot of sleepless nights knowing

 

you caused the death of fellow Saiga owners. Honest people can not live with serious guilt on their

 

conscious. Keep your pet project out of the spot light, and we all will be much happier.

 

 

 

 

i'm with you on this...at least what you're saying... i personally wouldn't give up my firearms...once THEY take them THEY'll take the freedom of speach and the rest of the constitution with it

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Wow. I can honestly say that this has me in utter amazement. I belong to a number of firearm forums, and am used to encountering members that I don't always agree with. Also, these forums seem to know no shortage of people with a lack of diplomacy or patience. But, this Mike Davidson guy gives me a REALLY bad vibe. If indeed he has created a working 20 rnd. drum, then he has a certain amount of my admiration. Ammunition feeding devices are tricky and problematic. If I had designed one that I truly felt one could trust his life to, then I would be tremendously proud. What I think I'm seeing here though, is alot of schoolyard posturing and bickering. This behavior is not just on the part of Mike Davidson but I don't appreciate the blanket insults because I am concerned about what will become of this along with almost everyone else. Dude, calm down. Try to look at it from all sides. There are alot of people that get nervous/irritated real quick when they see an obvious threat to what is left of their second amendment rights. Can you assure us that you will or have already checked with the BATFE? I know that hindsight is 20/20 but maybe a better way to have gone about this would be to start asking what people would think about a 20 rnd drum.

I think this would have been alot better than flying in from out of nowhere with this "there coming, like it or not" attitude. I'm probably beating my head against the wall here but once in a great while I can't stop myself from chiming in with my two cents.

Mike, I hope that all works out for you. I hope that you are not on the edge of learning a very hard lesson. I also hope that this works out for the rest of us. Although I believe it won't.

 

 

I sold one of my Saiga-12s to Mike on this forum and he was a very decent guy to do business with.

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I am going to contact RAAC, the priciple russian arms plant in russia, and the director of the atf for the northeast (who lives about two minutes away from me), in the opposite order. I will think about what to do or not do after that. you are going to cost a lot of people a lot of money, never mind get MY fucking gun surrendered. seizure of DD's when declared is not a thing that is relevant to one or two states, I would like to remind you. maybe you might want to do some homework. it will happen within DAYS of you making your damn durms availible. if you dont believe, me, ask mr nixon at the atf yourself. I dont htink you really care, though.

 

now, i WILL say this. to your benefit. if it IS NOT PUBLICALLY SOLD, (you figure it out, ive got my own business to worry about, thats the hint I will give you), I dont think the atf CAN ban the s-12.

 

also, why dont you ask tony rumore why he doesnt make a drum? he is a big saiga rebuilder and does class 2 licensed work. maybe he can enlighten you as to why its a bad idea.

 

if you love this forum so dearly, why do you want to cripple it's expansion?

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I think in reality 10 round AGP mags are cheaper, easier and more reliable than any drum that could be made.How many 10 rounders can you get for $225?Also,if you look at armies,30 rounders for AK's are way more prevalant than drums.Food for thought.Neat toy but is it worth it?

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It's very interesting that the video has now been pulled. I posted a question thread on my favorite class 3 site and got several different responses. I'm really starting to think that what's been seen is a frankenmag usas 12 drum. I could be wrong of course because the builder is such a respected member of this community so I just want to know why it was pulled. Especially after such a long rant on how he didn't care about the rest of us and it would be built regardless. Just my 2 cents.

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I am going to contact RAAC, the priciple russian arms plant in russia, and the director of the atf for the northeast (who lives about two minutes away from me), in the opposite order. I will think about what to do or not do after that. you are going to cost a lot of people a lot of money, never mind get MY fucking gun surrendered. seizure of DD's when declared is not a thing that is relevant to one or two states, I would like to remind you. maybe you might want to do some homework. it will happen within DAYS of you making your damn durms availible. if you dont believe, me, ask mr nixon at the atf yourself. I dont htink you really care, though.

 

now, i WILL say this. to your benefit. if it IS NOT PUBLICALLY SOLD, (you figure it out, ive got my own business to worry about, thats the hint I will give you), I dont think the atf CAN ban the s-12.

 

also, why dont you ask tony rumore why he doesnt make a drum? he is a big saiga rebuilder and does class 2 licensed work. maybe he can enlighten you as to why its a bad idea.

 

if you love this forum so dearly, why do you want to cripple it's expansion?

I'm not sure what you are expecting to accomplish by contacting the atf or RAA. There is currently no law that restricts me from producing this, no matter what they tell you. There is no litigation that can be taken against me either. Yeah, you can call the atf and have them call me and tell me that i shouldn't, but they can't tell me I can't. And if they do, they are lying or don't know their own laws. Do you want them to ban it before it gets done, just to stop it? I have a very, very solid 6 digits invested in this. I can't stop even if they ban it, I will just have to make my money back from out of country and le sales. I have everthing I own riding on this. I have already used every nickel on hand, sold half of my collection of firearms to help fund it and am in the process of selling the rest of it, sold a lot of equipment I use in my tree service, and tapped out my crdit I am very willing not to sell publicly though and not make it readily available to just anybody. But I can't do that with out help. I am sorry but the mold is already being made, the money has been spent, and this is do or die for me now. Maybe I can only sell through a private site where you need a password to get a order placed. And not sell them in bulk to dealers so there arn't 10 of them in every gunshop for sale to anybody that wants one. I am willing to work something out. I need help and suggestions if we are going to keep this quite. But contacting the atf isn't going to do anything but bring it to their attention. And you might be the one to get it reclassified. And reguardless of what they say or do I have to continue, even if just to sell to England or the Russians.....

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It's very interesting that the video has now been pulled. I posted a question thread on my favorite class 3 site and got several different responses. I'm really starting to think that what's been seen is a frankenmag usas 12 drum. I could be wrong of course because the builder is such a respected member of this community so I just want to know why it was pulled. Especially after such a long rant on how he didn't care about the rest of us and it would be built regardless. Just my 2 cents.

I'm not going to go into the constuction just yet. I can say that it isn't a franken usas-12. I thought all the big guy's like Tony and such said it wasn't possible to convert them anyways? I put the bag over it just to hide my work for now. Like many others have done in the past. The guy that made the aa-12 fired his prototype 40rd drum with it in a box to hide his design.

 

I pulled the video at Cobra's request to keep this quite and contained. And that is the only reason I haven't posted a live fire video. I do care about the community. But I can't stop. Unless I'm ready to jump off a skyscrapper, and I don't want to do that.

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I do care about the community. But I can't stop. Unless I'm ready to jump off a skyscrapper, and I don't want to do that.

Translation: I don't care about the community, because I'm going to fuck you all for my own vanity. Because I'm so insecure I refuse to admit I made a mistake.

 

Harsh? Reality is harsh.

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It's very interesting that the video has now been pulled. I posted a question thread on my favorite class 3 site and got several different responses. I'm really starting to think that what's been seen is a frankenmag usas 12 drum. I could be wrong of course because the builder is such a respected member of this community so I just want to know why it was pulled. Especially after such a long rant on how he didn't care about the rest of us and it would be built regardless. Just my 2 cents.

I'm not going to go into the constuction just yet. I can say that it isn't a franken usas-12. I thought all the big guy's like Tony and such said it wasn't possible to convert them anyways? I put the bag over it just to hide my work for now. Like many others have done in the past. The guy that made the aa-12 fired his prototype 40rd drum with it in a box to hide his design.

 

I pulled the video at Cobra's request to keep this quite and contained. And that is the only reason I haven't posted a live fire video. I do care about the community. But I can't stop. Unless I'm ready to jump off a skyscrapper, and I don't want to do that.

 

 

You knew ahead of time not to step into a bear trap. Im calling the ATF on Monday. They need to do a quick ruling on your product like they did to Atkins. One ruling against such a product and no other idiot will try to create another drum again in the future. Then you can send them overseas only and we'll all be happy.

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Umm, WOW.

 

Damnit. I was really hoping to avoid posting in these treads. This seems a bit over the top though. Calling the ATF on him with the intent of getting his product banned? WTF? Id really like to know how this is in the best interest of anybody other than Sarah Brady?

 

Im calling the ATF on Monday. They need to do a quick ruling on your product like they did to Atkins. One ruling against such a product and no other idiot will try to create another drum again in the future. Then you can send them overseas only and we'll all be happy.
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What likely to happen is his drums will ban my guns if his product gets out.

If his product gets banned first, thousands of Saigas are spared.

Timing is everything.

It a no brainer.

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