jaywalker 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Just about everything that Mike Davidson has posted reflects a great deal of selfishness. Just to make a small point here... I own and operate a firearms refinishing business in Arizona. My last two jobs have been complete refinishes on newly converted Saiga shotguns. Sure, not huge money makers, but jobs that would not have been there for me to do if the Saiga shotgun were classified as a destructive device. See how things kind of trickle down here? It is apparently not enough that our firearms ownership rights are about to undergo further erosion. It is apparently not enough for guys like Mike Davidson to fabricate 20 rnd. drums for their own uses. No. Guys like Tony Rumore and myself pay with their livleyhoods. The rest of us pay with their God given rights. Thanks Mike. It is my fondest hope that you are able to spend the revenue generated with these drums in good health. Maybe sometime in the future your concept of capitolism and community will change. What goes around comes around. (...like a motherfucker sometimes) Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Just about everything that Mike Davidson has posted reflects a great deal of selfishness. Just to make a small point here...I own and operate a firearms refinishing business in Arizona. My last two jobs have been complete refinishes on newly converted Saiga shotguns. Sure, not huge money makers, but jobs that would not have been there for me to do if the Saiga shotgun were classified as a destructive device. See how things kind of trickle down here? It is apparently not enough that our firearms ownership rights are about to undergo further erosion. It is apparently not enough for guys like Mike Davidson to fabricate 20 rnd. drums for their own uses. No. Guys like Tony Rumore and myself pay with their livleyhoods. The rest of us pay with their God given rights. Thanks Mike. It is my fondest hope that you are able to spend the revenue generated with these drums in good health. Maybe sometime in the future your concept of capitolism and community will change. What goes around comes around. (...like a motherfucker sometimes) not like there's any vengefull gun owners that would be angry enough to find mike... ... are there? Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Wow, man........... Through this whole time in the development of the AGP 10-rounders, we've all of us sat in on the dialogue regarding the ATF and their STANDING PROMISE that any feeding device, linear or non-linear, that could exceed 10 rounds would bring down a reclassification of the S-12 as a DD..................... Kevin went through all the hoops he had to go through in order to do it right and satisfy ATF......resulting in an APPROVED MAGAZINE that we're all very grateful about. Even the discussion of a non-linear feeding device (drum) was something we'd all basically agreed not even to discuss, in the interest of preserving our S-12's as an obtainable weapon........... (except maybe by you...........) You've essentially jumped into this thing with the drum, investing your last dime, and now you're at the point where, financially, you have to go with it or lose your ass. Right??? Here's the deal.......It's very possible that you've just utterly fucked all the rest of us as a result. I don't know all the ins and outs of the workings of the BATF, and I suppose it could work out just fine in the end.........but that's not the overall perception of those here that are familiar with the workings of ATF, based on all things previous stated about devices capable of over 10 rounds................. I feel for you, but I feel more for all the S-12 owners (myself included), the business members whose livelihood would be greatly affected by a DD ruling, and our overall community in this forum..........not to mention every gun owner of every type whose firearms security could be threatened by an unadvised and uncaring venture by an individual for financial benefit, in some similar aspect................ I'm not opposed to having a 20-round drum at all. I think we should all have a couple........................but I don't want all my friends fucked over so you can make a buck, dude................. If ATF DD's the S-12 as a result of your handiwork, Sirhan Sirhan, Charlie Manson, Hillary Klinton, and Louis Farrakhan will be regarded more highly than you................ Remembered as the guy who screwed over the entire Saiga community.........whew.......... However,provided you can do it without fucking everyone else, you'll be one helluva guy.......... I defer to those who are far more informed than I to discuss this with you. Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I would be in favor of all public discussion ending, the sooner the better, and let sleeping ATF dogs lay undisturbed. Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 mike, I have no intention of doing what you said. I am thinking somehting a bit more drastic and exact, if you really want to know. I stopped (sorry, let me rephrase that to PART OF WHO STOPPED) the last idiot that almost DID go commercial, and I can stop you too. I wasnt here all weekend, or I would have said something sooner. you may just be banned just for the duplicate name use. you someone that respects this place so much, you dont act like you do. you are NOT THE FIRST ONE to think this up. let me remind you that this forum has only a few rules to it. you are asking me to follow the rules here and let you have freedom of speech, when it is exactly that that will steal my right to my arms, AND the prosperity of my investment in this forum here, as well as its future. never mind the others that you will affect. i dont have a problem doing the research to stop you with a legal notice. the call to the atf is to ask for time to get it done. just so you know. and it wont be from me, either. Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfighter 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) I just copied and pasted this from a thread a few weeks ago ; Hello, Sorry but I can see where Cobra is coming from --------- I was one of the "lucky" people to have bought , not one but two , of the USAS-12s , with 10rd. stick and 20 rd. drums. Well , after owning them for about two years , them fucking Nazis BATFers declared them as Destructive Devices They were in "limbo" for about a year and the end result was ----- regester them as DDs , which I could not do in Illinois , or sell them before the deadline , which I did. Hunter etc. ---------- if you think the Nazis {BATF etc.} can't/ won't do the same thing with the S-12s -- YOU ARE WRONG !!!!! Then just try to sell your S-12s to some one before the 30/60/90 day deadline and JUST SEE WHAT THEY WILL PAY YOU. Yes -- you could " bury them in the backyard" etc -- good if the shit ever hits the fan , but not a lot of fun/use till then. I don't want to sound hyper-critic ------- BUT THE ABOVE HAPPENED TO ME and if we all are not carefull { loose lips sink ships} it can and will occur again. Gunfighter LIKE I STATED -------- when/if S-12s are declared DDs ---- just see what kind of price you will get for them. Anyone that can then LEGALLY buy them , knowes they have you by your nut hair and will pull them out by the roots !!!!!!! Edited March 12, 2007 by Gunfighter Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 you need to understand that some people will fight toth and nail lfor the few rights they have left, even if it is only the best gun on the planet. Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Wow, man........... Through this whole time in the development of the AGP 10-rounders, we've all of us sat in on the dialogue regarding the ATF and their STANDING PROMISE that any feeding device, linear or non-linear, that could exceed 10 rounds would bring down a reclassification of the S-12 as a DD..................... Kevin went through all the hoops he had to go through in order to do it right and satisfy ATF......resulting in an APPROVED MAGAZINE that we're all very grateful about. Even the discussion of a non-linear feeding device (drum) was something we'd all basically agreed not even to discuss, in the interest of preserving our S-12's as an obtainable weapon........... (except maybe by you...........) You've essentially jumped into this thing with the drum, investing your last dime, and now you're at the point where, financially, you have to go with it or lose your ass. Right??? Here's the deal.......It's very possible that you've just utterly fucked all the rest of us as a result. I don't know all the ins and outs of the workings of the BATF, and I suppose it could work out just fine in the end.........but that's not the overall perception of those here that are familiar with the workings of ATF, based on all things previous stated about devices capable of over 10 rounds................. I feel for you, but I feel more for all the S-12 owners (myself included), the business members whose livelihood would be greatly affected by a DD ruling, and our overall community in this forum..........not to mention every gun owner of every type whose firearms security could be threatened by an unadvised and uncaring venture by an individual for financial benefit, in some similar aspect................ I'm not opposed to having a 20-round drum at all. I think we should all have a couple........................but I don't want all my friends fucked over so you can make a buck, dude................. If ATF DD's the S-12 as a result of your handiwork, Sirhan Sirhan, Charlie Manson, Hillary Klinton, and Louis Farrakhan will be regarded more highly than you................ Remembered as the guy who screwed over the entire Saiga community.........whew.......... However,provided you can do it without fucking everyone else, you'll be one helluva guy.......... I defer to those who are far more informed than I to discuss this with you. amen to all that Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I am choosing to allow this topic to continue, because it comes up often, and hasnt been wrung through recently. this is a very poor subject here, is all I can say really, and myself and the other moderators have done a lot to supress it as best we can, without interfering with people. once in a while, you have to let it go AGAIN, and SHOW WHY it isnt being done. you will find three people that will say its a good idea. the entire gun community outside that, will say it isnt. even a manufacturer will tell you that it destroys your clientel. Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 It's very interesting that the video has now been pulled. I posted a question thread on my favorite class 3 site and got several different responses. I'm really starting to think that what's been seen is a frankenmag usas 12 drum. I could be wrong of course because the builder is such a respected member of this community so I just want to know why it was pulled. Especially after such a long rant on how he didn't care about the rest of us and it would be built regardless. Just my 2 cents. I'm not going to go into the constuction just yet. I can say that it isn't a franken usas-12. I thought all the big guy's like Tony and such said it wasn't possible to convert them anyways? I put the bag over it just to hide my work for now. Like many others have done in the past. The guy that made the aa-12 fired his prototype 40rd drum with it in a box to hide his design. I pulled the video at Cobra's request to keep this quite and contained. And that is the only reason I haven't posted a live fire video. I do care about the community. But I can't stop. Unless I'm ready to jump off a skyscrapper, and I don't want to do that. You knew ahead of time not to step into a bear trap. Im calling the ATF on Monday. They need to do a quick ruling on your product like they did to Atkins. One ruling against such a product and no other idiot will try to create another drum again in the future. Then you can send them overseas only and we'll all be happy. Dude, you are about a dummy. They are gonna laugh at you. The stock made a machine gun. I am making a perfectly legal magazine. Kiss my ass, you fuckin idiot. Tell them I said, Hi. Like I said, even if they deemed the saiga a dd, I could still make the drum and sell it. It only bans the gun, not the mags. Get informed brfoe you post stupidity. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 It's only a matter of time until someone really does this...we are simply prolonging the inevitable. If BATF could just issue a ruling so that the guns must be registered as DDs to use a mag with a capacity above 10...then it might be ok. But they can only issue rulings by manufacturer/model number AFAIK. Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 What likely to happen is his drums will ban my guns if his product gets out. If his product gets banned first, thousands of Saigas are spared. Timing is everything. It a no brainer. They can't ban my product because it is leagl to make. Do you mean "it's a no brainer" or Your a no brainer? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 That's right, it's me, hell yeah! I'll keep it quite though. Cobra asked me not to post a live fire video. You can verify that can't you Cobra. I wanted to come in incognito but fuck it. And I mean that. I love this forum dearly and come here everyday. But if it means that I have to hide then fuck it. I'm not a little pussy that jumps on the band wagon or some dumb ass that puts their foot in there mouth repeatedly here. You know who you are,, cough,, beerslurp, bob.... ... .... ... ...,,cough I can't beleive how little some of you know. Kiss my ass. Pussies! Do you believe it is coming now? My name and drums have anymore credit with anyone now. Enough with that, I really didn't want to cause an uproar here and anybody that read more than just the title of the thread knows that. Like I said, I love this place and I love my saiga-12's. And I promise, I love them even more with drums and "most of you" will too! To those who wanted to attack and shit, your right, there are no drums. But to the rational, please trust me, There will be. But like I said, I will keep it quite, and I will keep my word to Cobra, I will wait to the last minute to post private links and videos and will erase the one I have posted on youtube. Let this thread die. Or all the bb brains can start running there mouths all damn day tomorrow and call there lawyers or Uncle Sam, and even cry tears to their fucking wives. But like I've made clear, regardless if I banned from the community or not, IT IS COMING!!!! Here or there, I don't know. Only this I can say for sure at this point is sooner than later. is there one person here that wants this to come to fruition... i did... untill i read everyone elses input i'm almost ashamed to say "i hope you fail"... yup i said almost Link to post Share on other sites
jaywalker 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Man Mike... Are you like twelve? Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Calling the ATF is the same as admitting that it is ok for them to infringe on your rights. Once you do that, you are agreeing with them and then you are more subservient to them. The only thing that has made any firearm or part "illegal" is the bullshit sporting clause which is a complete infringement of the 2nd Amendment. Now you want to tell them "hey, there's a guy who is making something that is not sporting! Infringe our rights more and stop him" 1 Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Man Mike... Are you like twelve? rofl... i bet he plays with nunchucks still Link to post Share on other sites
SinistralRifleman 0 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 if we can work on getting HR 1096 passed...none of this will matter, sporting purpose will be removed from all the federal gun laws. See my other thread on this board. Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) I am making a perfectly legal magazine. Kiss my ass, you fuckin idiot. Tell them I said, Hi. Like I said, even if they deemed the saiga a dd, I could still make the drum and sell it. It only bans the gun, not the mags. Get informed brfoe you post stupidity. So, I take that to mean you really don't give a fuck if the guns are banned as long as you can sell your drum......... I'm thinking you just made a lot of enemies..........yeah, yeah, I know......."kiss my ass, you fuckin idiot", right??? This is a post from Cobra back in Nov. 06.......... Nobody can say it wasn't discussed here....... "Anyone, including Alex, that claims they have talked to the big dogs and we all have nothing at all to fear, anyone, just one damned person put up or shut up and provide a written and signed document by you know who that clears the sale to the public of a magazine or drum that will fit and feed an S-12 or any other semi automatic 12 ga shotgun, imported or domestic, that holds more than ten rounds and you can use this forum to gossip til your heart's content about building giant useless mags and drums til the damned cows come home! UNTIL THAT HAPPENS don't you dare try to use this place to plan, build, showoff, or sell the damned things. Go start your own damned forum called NLFD.com or dumbasses against the S-12.com or whatever. Max does not want it discussed here. He owns the place, not Bvamp, Max. What he says goes. What he wishes I will enforce. Yay, now I get to be the bad guy again. Fuckit I don't care. Ya'll know better than this, Mike I know you do at least. Tell ya what, here's what you do. Pick up the phone and call Kevin or Bob and ask them what BATF told them about manufacturing the ten round mags. Ask them what number of rounds BATF said they had better not go over for any reason or else!" Edited March 12, 2007 by Jeaux E Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 It's very interesting that the video has now been pulled. I posted a question thread on my favorite class 3 site and got several different responses. I'm really starting to think that what's been seen is a frankenmag usas 12 drum. I could be wrong of course because the builder is such a respected member of this community so I just want to know why it was pulled. Especially after such a long rant on how he didn't care about the rest of us and it would be built regardless. Just my 2 cents. I'm not going to go into the constuction just yet. I can say that it isn't a franken usas-12. I thought all the big guy's like Tony and such said it wasn't possible to convert them anyways? I put the bag over it just to hide my work for now. Like many others have done in the past. The guy that made the aa-12 fired his prototype 40rd drum with it in a box to hide his design. I pulled the video at Cobra's request to keep this quite and contained. And that is the only reason I haven't posted a live fire video. I do care about the community. But I can't stop. Unless I'm ready to jump off a skyscrapper, and I don't want to do that. You knew ahead of time not to step into a bear trap. Im calling the ATF on Monday. They need to do a quick ruling on your product like they did to Atkins. One ruling against such a product and no other idiot will try to create another drum again in the future. Then you can send them overseas only and we'll all be happy. Dude, you are about a dummy. They are gonna laugh at you. The stock made a machine gun. I am making a perfectly legal magazine. Kiss my ass, you fuckin idiot. Tell them I said, Hi. Like I said, even if they deemed the saiga a dd, I could still make the drum and sell it. It only bans the gun, not the mags. Get informed brfoe you post stupidity. Shithead, If they manage to rule against your mag like they did for the atkins accelerator then your screwed not every other Saiga owner. The only hope we all have is that they screw you and not us. Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) What likely to happen is his drums will ban my guns if his product gets out. If his product gets banned first, thousands of Saigas are spared. Timing is everything. It a no brainer. They can't ban my product because it is leagl to make. Do you mean "it's a no brainer" or Your a no brainer? Shithead, They banned the atkins accelerator not the gun. The Atkins was perfectly legal to make too. Big surprise. What part of that do you not understand? Edited March 12, 2007 by dog Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Shithead, If they manage to rule against your mag like they did for the atkins accelerator then your screwed not every other Saiga owner. The only hope we all have is that they screw you and not us. Or he is the hero for excersizing our rights that shouldn't have been taken in the first place. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfighter 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Mike --------- I have seen and read some of your past posts/replies and you looked like a reasonable , law abideing person - just like most of the other members here. In this post , you have stated you have everything you own , rideing on this drum mag. I am a little shocked that you either didn't read or chose to ignor other posts about the ramifcations that COULD occure if a mag/clip over 10 rounds was offered for sale here in the USA. Tempers are running high and you among others sound stressed out --------- PLEASE try to think this matter thru some more. YES --- you can make a LEGAL product --------- but what about MORALS ??? I am 50 years old --- all my life, I have been just fucking freaked out how the firearms owners can not stick together ---- and then they bitch and moan when the anti-gunners bend us over and backdoor us. You don't know how happy I was to get the USAS-12s , how proud I was to be the first at a match with them ----- and HOW SAD I was when they were reclassified as DDs . I lost almost $1000 when I was forced to sell them ---- that did not put me in the poorhouse --- HAVING to sell them almost put me in the nuthouse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My advice --------- get a patent and then sell it to the Ruskies or another place out of the USA. Don't only think of yourself --------- think of the other people that you will be afectting -- that is what I meen by MORALS ----------- Gunfighter Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Man Mike... Are you like twelve? rofl... i bet he plays with nunchucks still No guys, i'm not 12 and I don't play with nunchucks. I play with saiga's with 20rd drums. I have listened to all your good points and also a lot of your utter ignorances as well. Like, I'm calling the atf. Give me a break. They can't ban a drum. They can however ban a saiga. They would have to pass a law through congress to ban the drum. Good luck getting that one on the roster. In fact it is already there in the form of hr1022. Which will ban make a 20rd drum and importing saiga's all at the same time. The drum is completely legal. I am telling you guys. Even if someone from the atf does call me and tell me it is illegal. I will staight up tell them the same thing. It is not illegal. And if i have to, to kiss my ass and get informed of there own laws. That they need an act of congress. Even if they ban the saiga-12 as a dd, it is not illegal for me to make a drum for it for you or anyone else. They would have to pass hr1022 or a similar law. Seriously. quit comin at me with you childish comments and look up the laws. OR maybe you should hurry up and call the atf and tell them I'm making a 20rd drum and that they better ban the saiga. Get real. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 (edited) I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either. I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT. Rulings seem to bypass Congress. If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around. Edited March 12, 2007 by dog Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Mike --------- I have seen and read some of your past posts/replies and you looked like a reasonable , law abideing person - just like most of the other members here. In this post , you have stated you have everything you own , rideing on this drum mag. I am a little shocked that you either didn't read or chose to ignor other posts about the ramifcations that COULD occure if a mag/clip over 10 rounds was offered for sale here in the USA. Tempers are running high and you among others sound stressed out --------- PLEASE try to think this matter thru some more. YES --- you can make a LEGAL product --------- but what about MORALS ??? I am 50 years old --- all my life, I have been just fucking freaked out how the firearms owners can not stick together ---- and then they bitch and moan when the anti-gunners bend us over and backdoor us. You don't know how happy I was to get the USAS-12s , how proud I was to be the first at a match with them ----- and HOW SAD I was when they were reclassified as DDs . I lost almost $1000 when I was forced to sell them ---- that did not put me in the poorhouse --- HAVING to sell them almost put me in the nuthouse !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My advice --------- get a patent and then sell it to the Ruskies or another place out of the USA. Don't only think of yourself --------- think of the other people that you will be afectting -- that is what I meen by MORALS ----------- Gunfighter I have thought about it. A whole lot. I wasn't willing to take a chance of hr1022 getting past without having the drum. There is a very good chance it will get passed. If it does, the saiga's and all future possible clone are already damn near as good as a DD. They will probably not reclassify it if it is already banned. And the future production of the drum would be banned as well. I wasn't willing to sit here and wait to see if it passes or not. I wanted a drum fed 12gauge and more of us do than don't . Really the opposers are way fewer that the overwheling supporters. Like I said, I feel for you guy's in gun hating states. But don't try to give the rest of us your laws. More than likely the saiga is getting banned with hr1022 and they won't reclassify it. Even if hr1022 doesn't get passed they probably won't reclassify it. Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I suppose they cant ban a stock that bump fires the Ruger 10-22 either.I guess they will just ban the ruger 10-22 NOT. Rulings seem to bypass Congress. If we are going to lose are Saiga 12s because of your greed, you need to be royally ass raped by the same third party. What goes around comes around. Do you understand that the stock made the ruger a machinegun. It is considered a "full auto part". A 20rd drum is not a "DD part" there is no such thing. The mag limitations died with the assault weapons ban. They can deem my drum anything. It is just a magazine. It doesn't make anything full auto. Do you understand. If not call the atf and let them explain it to you. Link to post Share on other sites
akdog 3 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Saigas can get banned with hr 1022 but we can still own them they would be grandfathered in. DD reclassification is way worse. Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 12, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Saigas can get banned with hr 1022 but we can still own them they would be grandfathered in. DD reclassification is way worse. Dude. Get informed, if it is reclassifed to a DD, they don't come around and collect them. You get a free tax stamp and it is still granfathered. Link to post Share on other sites
mccumber1916 1 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Saigas can get banned with hr 1022 but we can still own them they would be grandfathered in. DD reclassification is way worse. i've had dd charges... class c felony... posible 5 years jail... then being a felon and losing right to bear arms a really bad deal Link to post Share on other sites
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