pullnshoot25 0 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 OK people, here is a question that has me going on Saiga fever right about now. SO here is the deal... upon reading this site about modifying the Saiga into a more functionable rifle.... http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/step_10.htm ...I saw the author's note (in italics) speaking of how the Galil has a special adapter for using M16 magazines... also, the article states that the Saiga 223 can accept Galil magazines... so here is where the fun begins, muahahaha... The adapter can be purchased from Vulcan Arms (fortunately, this is a part that WONT blow up in my face, haha!) for a steep but seemingly worthwhile 175 or so dollars. This will potentially allow me to use the readily available M16/AR15 magazines (10 rounders of kourse for Kalifornia) in my future Saiga 223 So here are my questions 1) Has anyone tried this before or even thought of doing it? 2) If so, does the magazine itself have to be filed down any or just the conversion thingamabob? 3) Legality? Why is it illegal/What do I have to to do make it legal? I am so buzzed on this idea that I will have a hard time now doing my statistics homework... bring forth thy knowledge, oh Calguns.net/Saiga12 forum members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Red Jacket 329 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 I did one a while back and posted it on this board . Check back through the .223 section Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JK-47 33 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 First don't you dare send your money to Vulcan arms- wether the part blows up or not, we should make certain not to forget what Vulcan/Hesse really is. Second, check out Ohio RapidFire, they have the same part for about 80$. Galil m16 mag adapter. The m16 adapter is a great idea on the drawing board, but I have yet to see anyone really embrace the idea... It doesn't seem to be an easy conversion otherwise more people would have done it. It's certainly worth exploring. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted March 12, 2007 Report Share Posted March 12, 2007 Vulcan Arms Screw that! I wouldn't even buy one of their injected molded stocks I'd ask Red Jacket what they'd charge....send your bussiness to those that deserve it! You guys remember their Galil-like saiga mods included the mag adaptor... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry120574 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 23, 2007 Report Share Posted March 23, 2007 You guys might want to take another look at this one. I don't have a .223 Saiga, but I'm in the process of building a .223 Galil and picked up one of the AR mag adapters from ORF (UA is the manufacturer). My ORF receiver takes Orlite mags with no problem and only required minor fitting at the front for the adapter. Now both are honeymoon fit and I have the ability to use easy to find AR/M16 mags. The only complaint I have if any is that the mag drop lever is LH. Tinker away....... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 I'm looking at this for my Saiga .223 The ones I've seen are not attached to the rifle, they seem to just pop into the AKM magwell and then you pop a M-16 mag in there... Now the question is, does the adaptor end up permanently attached to the rifle or is it simply just an adaptor that you slip on the mag... Yep, I'm confused and I have a headache... plus I could use some coffee and I have a bit of gas... LOL MD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 9, 2007 Report Share Posted April 9, 2007 First don't you dare send your money to Vulcan arms- wether the part blows up or not, we should make certain not to forget what Vulcan/Hesse really is. Umm.. Enlighten me, I must have forgotten who they "REALLY ARE" .... Vulcan Arms ohmy.gif Screw that! I wouldn't even buy one of their injected molded stocks rolleyes.gif Why not? Did they make them so long ago they were fucked up too? Ya know... I dont understand all the negativity Vulcan gets... Yeah, Hesse made some shitty conversions back in the day... *WAY BACK* In the day... poor quality welds... bad paint... from what I have read on the net... 99% of it all was cosmetic problems. I have *HEARD RUMOR* of a gun blowing up... but I have yet to see that one confirmed. I have read about someones AK build that the front trunnion welds were breaking loose... Well... one out of how many? I heard about a saiga with a bulged barrel too... doesnt mean all saigas are junk... and doesnt mean that the welded one wasnt abused totally either... maybe they tried the "run over it with a truck" routine a few too many times.... I am not trying to stick up for them... but honestly... I would LOVE to hear how many people have ACTUAL FIRSTHAND experience with Hesse mishaps... not word of mouth, or a friend of a friend, or I read it somewhere... but HONEST TO GOODNESS firsthand experience with a DANGEROUS CONDITION... I happen to have a VULCAN made rifle, and to this day, I have not had ONE PROBLEM with it. It functions flawlessly, and looks pretty darn nice too. I had to replace the trigger because the factory one was too heavy for target shooting. I dropped the 9 pound factory down to a more manageable 2.5 pounds it shoots like a dream. Other than that... I have done NOTHING to the gun other than locktighting threaded portions. Something that happens on many threaded opbects on many guns... they work loose. I dont see the big deal... My buddy has a Vulcan AR-15... nothing wrong with that... shoots and functions just fine. always has... hes never had any trouble with it. So like I said... Can anyone cite FIRSTHAND dangerous Hesse/Vulcan conditions? And can anyone cite any DANGEROUS conditions from guns made in the past several years... not the ones from *WAY BACK* like we referred to before... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 (edited) I'd like to hear first hand accounts of their products too. I've only heard negative comments about Hesse online in forums, website reviews (http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/hesse47.html) and gun shows. I see the Vulcan website advertises alot of new products for top and they continue to push the special forces theme more and more and they say on their homepage they are the "Best-Built Firearms in the World!" so maybe they've cleaned up and make quality stuff now but I still find bad reviews on their new 50 cal and there v-94 which apperantly is straight blowback but maybe that's OK since they say they'll repair their products which have no warranty for one year after purchase. I just assumed like alot of people that they changed names to seperate themselves from their past reputation and in my mind equate them to people like Special Weapons who's operated under a half dozen names who ARS identifies as one of the "bottom-feeders of the gun industry." I invite anyone here has owned a Hesse/Vulcan firearm to comment on its performance, quality of parts and finish, etc. Edited April 10, 2007 by KySoldier Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 but I still find bad reviews on their new 50 cal Thats the one I have... and as I said, mine is decent... What were the BAD REVEIWS its gotten, I would like to know... Got any links? Thats for sure one rifle I would NOT want to blow up on me.... LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
will36 0 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 I'd like to hear first hand accounts of their products too. I've only heard negative comments about Hesse online in forums, website reviews (http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/hesse47.html) and gun shows. I see the Vulcan website advertises alot of new products for top and they continue to push the special forces theme more and more and they say on their homepage they are the "Best-Built Firearms in the World!" so maybe they've cleaned up and make quality stuff now but I still find bad reviews on their new 50 cal and some of their HK clones which apperantly are straight blowback but maybe that's OK since they say they'll repair their products which have no warranty for one year after purchase. I just assumed like alot of people that they changed names to seperate themselves from their past reputation and in my mind equate them to people like Special Weapons who's operated under a half dozen names who ARS identifies as one of the "bottom-feeders of the gun industry." I invite anyone here has owned a Hesse/Vulcan firearm to comment on its performance, quality of parts and finish, etc. I had a Hesse arm carbon fiber lower AR15 . It shot great . I traded a POS Rhineland arms 22 cal. mp5 clone for it . Now you want to talk about a TOTAL POS!!! I sent it back to Rhineland arms 4 times. They had it longer than I did. The guy that I traded with sent it back after working on it for a month. They sent him a new gun. fuckers would not do that for me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Hmm... Thats what my buddy has... ( I mentioned above.. The carbon fiber AR15, his shoots very nice indeed. ) Looks like thats a +1.... not a -1!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Here's someone's experience with one... http://www.jouster.com/cgi-bin/50cal/index...frames;read=305 I'll try to fiind some gunsmith's comments. I've heard the rumor of one blowing up too but I've seen no first hand account or pictures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 yeah, thats the page I have read... Thankfully NONE of these problems have befallen MY 50 BMG rifle... it functions well, and is not hard to unload after firing. I also dont think my bolt handle is WELDED... I think its threaded in... if it IS welded, you cant tell, its VERY clean. Heres a link from that site, KY, that has a relatively PLEASED user... with some better updated info on the bolts, too... (mine is the NEW vulcan style... ) I am willing to bet it was any/all of the OLD styles that had problems!! http://www.outlawperformance.com/myhessearms50bmgrifle.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted April 10, 2007 Report Share Posted April 10, 2007 Yeah I read about the old and new styles so they probably corrected the bolt handle issue too. I looked into the Vulcan rifle when I was looking at affordable 50 cals, there's alot more options out there now besides the Barrets and Armalite...but then I got side tracked into other gun genres and never bought a 50 from anybody Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bad Bob 0 Posted April 11, 2007 Report Share Posted April 11, 2007 Umm.. Enlighten me, I must have forgotten who they "REALLY ARE" .... I go way back with Mr. Hesse. I was a member of the FAL Users Group, back in the '90s, when he offered us Izzy FALO kits at a bargain basement price (Thank you, Sir! Wish I had bought more! ;>). I've also seen photos of what was reportedly a Hesse (or Vulcan?) RPK clone, where some dumb @ss had failed to grind off the rivet heads on the original front trunion, and had just mashed the US-made receiver into place - KIND OF - OVER THE OLD RIVET HEADS, and just welded that puppy in place (FOR GOD'S SAKE, don't look at the photo if you ever find it - it will break your heart!). That may have been a one-time occurrence, by a disgruntled employee, but unless the photos were faked, that POS made it past the Hesse quality control and was sold to a Hesse customer, who was also a member of the American shooting public. I have absolutely nothing against Mr. Hesse (heck, I'm from Minnesota, FWIW), but I get the 'impression' that quality control sometimes didn't measure up to his expectations - it might be better now, for all I know, I have absolutely no data, YMMV, etc., etc... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Back on topic for a minute, 90% of the adapters your going to find are made by UA (Uzi America), o.k. I made the 90% up but I'll stick by it. ORF has them in the $80 range, I just put one on my Galil with some minor milling to the ORF receiver (gen before last receiver ORF produced) and it fits and functions perfectly. It is totally reversable....remove the mag adapter using the original AK mag catch and insert your OEM .223 mag. As for Vulcan, I can't comment since I never owned one of their builds, but it's like the saying goes.......suck one dick and your a cock sucker for life. I think that's what they're up against. Original quality was so poor that that's the reputation they're stuck with for life no matter what they have done to correct things. Or the quality may vary with model, I know they make AK's, AR's, 50's, Galil and HK clones, some may be problematic while others are fine. You may wish to contact Tony when he gets cought up since he's posted before about fixing their mistakes since it paid like a slot machine, or something to that effect. You can buy a complete Galil kit for $250ish and part out what you don't use, The mag adapters are nice since they allow you to use readily available U.S. AR mags (cheap and counts as 3 parts), and you get a magwell with a drop tab. Some of the original adapters had a feature that blocks the AK mag latch to keep you from accidentally dropping out the adapter from the habbit of using the OEM mag catch, but those models are substancially more. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kfb2b 0 Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 In doing a bit of research I find that thee are some mods that need to be done to the Saiga, like cutting the magwell, and wleding it in. I am thinking of having it done, though. What do y'all think??? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted April 12, 2007 Report Share Posted April 12, 2007 Red Jacket cleared it up on a stamped receiver. The adaptor is welded in. Sounds good enough for me... Now where did my big "bag-o-cash" go... LOL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted April 13, 2007 Report Share Posted April 13, 2007 First don't you dare send your money to Vulcan arms- wether the part blows up or not, we should make certain not to forget what Vulcan/Hesse really is. Umm.. Enlighten me, I must have forgotten who they "REALLY ARE" .... Vulcan Arms ohmy.gif Screw that! I wouldn't even buy one of their injected molded stocks rolleyes.gif Why not? Did they make them so long ago they were fucked up too? Ya know... I dont understand all the negativity Vulcan gets... Yeah, Hesse made some shitty conversions back in the day... *WAY BACK* In the day... poor quality welds... bad paint... from what I have read on the net... 99% of it all was cosmetic problems. I have *HEARD RUMOR* of a gun blowing up... but I have yet to see that one confirmed. I have read about someones AK build that the front trunnion welds were breaking loose... Well... one out of how many? I heard about a saiga with a bulged barrel too... doesnt mean all saigas are junk... and doesnt mean that the welded one wasnt abused totally either... maybe they tried the "run over it with a truck" routine a few too many times.... I am not trying to stick up for them... but honestly... I would LOVE to hear how many people have ACTUAL FIRSTHAND experience with Hesse mishaps... not word of mouth, or a friend of a friend, or I read it somewhere... but HONEST TO GOODNESS firsthand experience with a DANGEROUS CONDITION... I happen to have a VULCAN made rifle, and to this day, I have not had ONE PROBLEM with it. It functions flawlessly, and looks pretty darn nice too. I had to replace the trigger because the factory one was too heavy for target shooting. I dropped the 9 pound factory down to a more manageable 2.5 pounds it shoots like a dream. Other than that... I have done NOTHING to the gun other than locktighting threaded portions. Something that happens on many threaded opbects on many guns... they work loose. I dont see the big deal... My buddy has a Vulcan AR-15... nothing wrong with that... shoots and functions just fine. always has... hes never had any trouble with it. So like I said... Can anyone cite FIRSTHAND dangerous Hesse/Vulcan conditions? And can anyone cite any DANGEROUS conditions from guns made in the past several years... not the ones from *WAY BACK* like we referred to before... I can attest to an experience I had with a Hesse AK-74. In 2004 I regretfully purchased a Bulgarian 74 from Joeken firearms, first mistake, anyway when I FINALLY got it four months later it was very poorly constructed. The muzzle brake was welded on poorly and there were no rivets, only welds on the receiver. A drop of weld was on the ejector and after a few cycles of the action this wore off. The result was ejection malfuction. Also, the hole in the receiver for the trigger pin was OVAL and the pin wallowed around in that hole. The saftey issue was that this rifle slam fired ONLY!!!. Would burn a whole magazine. I sent it back and dealing with those crooks at "jokin" is another story but it was salvaged for parts eventually. I don't know if joeken or Hesse was to blame but it was an extremely poorly constructed piece of garbage, and I got ripped off. I am glad joeken is/was under investigation, hopefully in jail but this was the worst I have ever encountered. Very very disappointing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 What I dont understand is WHY would all those problems happen? I mean I can understand poor welds on a muzzlebreak... they had to be welded on at the time... but WHY would a hole be OVAL? Why was there a drop of weld on the extractor? didnt the extractor work to begin with? werent the holes already in the receiver... but then... Why was everything welded? this had to be a BUILD, not a conversion, right??? I couldnt imagine why things would be that bad on a conversion... That would go along with the poor HESSE standards!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mtberen 0 Posted April 15, 2007 Report Share Posted April 15, 2007 I invite anyone here has owned a Hesse/Vulcan firearm to comment on its performance, quality of parts and finish, etc. OK, here's my Vulcan story. I got my Saiga in late 2004 from Joe/Ken firearms; I had the usual complaints that everyone else shares: crappy muzzle brake weld, nasty finish. The first time I took it out, the folding stock nearly fell off, and the lower handguard did fall off. The fix for the folding stock was some locktite on the retaining screws, and I bought an m-14 two-piece bayonet lug as a handguard retainer. As it turns out, the notch was cut into the barrel too far forward for the handguard retainer to hold it in place. I was detecting a bit of trigger slap, so I replaced the FCG with the Tapco G2 (BTW, the old FCG was origin unknown, no markings). HOWEVER: The rifle has yet to malfunction with any ammo or mag I've put in it. The feed ramp is welded in, but it does it's job. This gun puts lead downrange, and I've spent the last two years making it look respectable (refinishing and filing welds). Would I buy another Vulcan? Probably not, because I don't want to deal with cosmetic hassles. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KySoldier 2 Posted April 16, 2007 Report Share Posted April 16, 2007 (edited) Thanks for the info guys from your first hand experience. I heard yesterday that one of my friends who was with me at the big Machine Gun Shoot last Friday saw something he liked and made an impulse buy without any of us around; a semi auto MAC-10 made by Vulcan. This was brought to my attention because yesterday he shot it and it only shot once before the internals came loose and stopped functioning. So far that's the only Vulcan made gun my friend's have bought, I look forward to looking at it up close to see what was done/not done to cause it. Edited April 16, 2007 by KySoldier Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted April 20, 2007 Report Share Posted April 20, 2007 What I dont understand is WHY would all those problems happen? I mean I can understand poor welds on a muzzlebreak... they had to be welded on at the time... but WHY would a hole be OVAL? Why was there a drop of weld on the extractor? didnt the extractor work to begin with? werent the holes already in the receiver... but then... Why was everything welded? this had to be a BUILD, not a conversion, right??? I couldnt imagine why things would be that bad on a conversion... That would go along with the poor HESSE standards!! I did not know why all these problems would occur. I purchased the gun on the premise it would be of good quality as it was advertised as new. When the trunnion or any other part that would be originally riveted was spot welded, obviously technology whoever built this lacked, they dripped a spot of weld onto the ejector, when it wore off a portion of the ejector came along with it. Due to loose tolerances the bolt would slideover the defect. It came off only after 2-3 cycles. The rails were not heat treated correctly. Your right, this most probably was new Bulgy parts welded on a lousy receiver that explains the over size pin axis holes and inadequate heat treatment. Had I been able to see this before purchase it would have taken 3-4 seconds to see this was junk. You would have too. Hazards of buying without seeing. The receiver was marked HESSE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dyi 0 Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 I'll start by saying I got ANOTHER caliber for SHTF. My Saiga 223 should be here Monday. The missing link _for me_ is a working removable AR15 mag adapter. For an American SHTF, I'm counting on field pick up of .223 and AR15/M16 mags. I love my 762's and 545's, but what do you plan on picking up while dodging zombies? There doesn't seem to be any yeah or nay on whether they work or not. I don't mind on modifying the rifle but I want it to still take 74 mags if need be. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Adding the adapter to the .223 is permanent... I'm not worrying about zombies... I just want to be able to get magazines at a reasonable price that add to parts count. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jStat 0 Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Would you still need a bullet guide with this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MD_Willington 11 Posted May 19, 2007 Report Share Posted May 19, 2007 Yes I believe you do. Will knows the particulars Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jimmy_stikx 0 Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 From my understanding, most Galil surplus ones (I'm guessing the ORF one is modelled on one of these) are click in mods, and are as easily reversed as changing an orlite out. I'm probably going to get one of the ORF ones for my Galil once I get out of lay a way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dyi 0 Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 From my understanding, most Galil surplus ones (I'm guessing the ORF one is modelled on one of these) are click in mods, and are as easily reversed as changing an orlite out. I'm probably going to get one of the ORF ones for my Galil once I get out of lay a way. That's where I'm confused too. Half the posts say its removable, the other half say its a permanent mod. Being a 223 noob (lots of 762, 12 gauge, 545) is the Galil a milled receiver? If so there's the difference. Oh and what about this blast from the past?: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=493 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cscharlie 107 Posted May 23, 2007 Report Share Posted May 23, 2007 Is lock in and removable on a Galil, which is what it's made to use in. To use one in a Saiga takes some permanent mods to get it to work. Does Redjacket have a website? Wonder how much they charge to mod a Saiga to use one of these adaptors? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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