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Never call the ATF


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Reporting something that breaks their unconstitutional rules is the same as agreeing with them and giving up more of your rights.

 

Once you give up something, you won't get it back. That's how we got to where we are now with all of this infringement of our rights

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It really takes someone with no inkling of forethought or consideration of possible repercussions to call to the attention of authorities something that at very least is legally questionable. It's like Bubba saying "Hey y'all--watch this" and then after the disaster "who'd a thunk that would happen."

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Reporting something that breaks their unconstitutional rules is the same as agreeing with them and giving up more of your rights.

 

Once you give up something, you won't get it back. That's how we got to where we are now with all of this infringement of our rights

Well said, Better tell dog that. He is calling the atf, dateline, 60 minutes and martha stewart first thing tomorrow. What a joke.

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It really takes someone with no inkling of forethought or consideration of possible repercussions to call to the attention of authorities something that at very least is legally questionable. It's like Bubba saying "Hey y'all--watch this" and then after the disaster "who'd a thunk that would happen."

Your missing the point. Selling the drum is perfectly legal right now.

Afterwards when a reclassification happens, those who can't have DDs in their state are totally fucked.

Think of all the owners of Saiga 12s in New York State. As a DD, they all have to either turn in their gun or risk 10 years in jail. Its a nightmare situation because Mikey wants some $ while screwing a whole community of Saiga 12 owners.

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It really takes someone with no inkling of forethought or consideration of possible repercussions to call to the attention of authorities something that at very least is legally questionable. It's like Bubba saying "Hey y'all--watch this" and then after the disaster "who'd a thunk that would happen."

Your missing the point. Selling the drum is perfectly legal right now.

Afterwards when a reclassification happens, those who can't have DDs in their state are totally fucked.

Think of all the owners of Saiga 12s in New York State. As a DD, they all have to either turn in their gun or risk 10 years in jail. Its a nightmare situation because Mikey wants some $ while screwing a whole community of Saiga 12 owners.

I realize that selling the drum would be legal. My point is that one repercussion would be to screw those of us in states where DD's aren't allowed. I agree with you.

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Why would the Saiga-12 be considered a Destructive Device?? Just because it may have an aftermarket drum magazine?? If that is the case, wouldn't Beta Mags make AR-15's & HK MP-5 clones Destructive Devices? There is now a drum mag for Colt 1911 pistols out on the market. Is that next??

I'm not saying it may not happen in the future, especially with the new Democratic Congress and Senate majority. I'm just trying to understand the paranoia, I mean reasoning.

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He's not paranoid, just look at two other shotguns that were changed to DD after being determined to be non sporting. Also don't forget that the "drum maker" doesn't give a rats ass how it affects the rest of you. I say you because mine is already a registered SBS and I can have a DD in Texas. That being said I won't give up any cash to someone who doesn't care about the gun community and is only motivated by greed.

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Why would the Saiga-12 be considered a Destructive Device?? Just because it may have an aftermarket drum magazine?? If that is the case, wouldn't Beta Mags make AR-15's & HK MP-5 clones Destructive Devices? There is now a drum mag for Colt 1911 pistols out on the market. Is that next??

I'm not saying it may not happen in the future, especially with the new Democratic Congress and Senate majority. I'm just trying to understand the paranoia, I mean reasoning.

The DD comes into play when you go over a certain barrel diameter...I believe it's 0.50" but it might be 0.60". So shotguns are automatically more susceptible to reclassification. It's not a guarantee, but it's kind of like sleeping with women in Africa...you might have a jolly time or you might get HIV.

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Why would the Saiga-12 be considered a Destructive Device?? Just because it may have an aftermarket drum magazine?? If that is the case, wouldn't Beta Mags make AR-15's & HK MP-5 clones Destructive Devices? There is now a drum mag for Colt 1911 pistols out on the market. Is that next??

I'm not saying it may not happen in the future, especially with the new Democratic Congress and Senate majority. I'm just trying to understand the paranoia, I mean reasoning.

Streetsweeper and USAS-12. Both are now classified destructive devices, both have high capacity drum mags. You do the math, thats where the paranoia is coming from.

Edited by trukreltrog
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This is what I know. If the ATF makes the Saiga 12 a DD you will be granfathered to retain ownership in any state that the Saiga 12 is ok to own. Now they could make a new rule if they wanted, but that is what has been done in the past.

 

.50+ = ATF control

 

If your in the business, calling the ATF is NOT a bad thing. If you try to sneek they will hunt. 99% of them are just normal people, and if you run into a jerk dont be a jerk. we all have to work together and talk it out.

 

Aloha Jammer

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Wow. just..I mean WOW... WTF?

 

How in the nine hells did we get to the point where we have forum members actually threatening to call the goddamned BATFE on other members????

 

I spent the better part on a hour today reading all the posts about the fucking boogeyman in the form of an S-12 drum, and the guy that actually has the nuts to make it has been threatened with everything from personal bodily harm, to legal action, to calling the fucking ENEMY to "make him stop,make him stop!"

 

no matter WHAT happens, calling these power hungry fucks will only result in a negative action to our already eroded firearms rights...sure they may do it anyway, but for fuck's sake people, dont HELP them do it!!!

 

Mike Davidson: I think what you are doing is probably a bad idea, (cool as hell, but ultimately unwise)

yep, it's legal, yep, you have the RIGHT in our capitolist nation to do it, and I wish you all the luck in the world, but ultimately, you are bringing attention to a sleeping dog, that for now, BATFE has agreed to let lie for political expediancy.

 

BVamp: This is YOUR house, so YOUR rules apply, and all should respect them..if they dont agree with your rules, then they should leave. I have always seen you as a pretty reasonable guy based on your posts, but I think calling the ATF was crossing the line, man.. I have no doubt that you are absolutely convinced that you are doing the right thing, otherwise you wouldnt be doing it, but damn..calling the feds? I just cant wrap my little lizard brain around that one...that's just poking the bear with a stick..now they will probably "review" the AGP 10 rounders again, and the importation of the russian 8 rounders, maybe even throw the 922r compliance thing for this weapon right out the window..why? how? doesnt matter to them..."Stroke of the pen, law of the land" sound familiar?

 

ALL:

 

Do you folks not realize that there are people in Moveon.org who do NOTHING but cruise the gun forums, looking for just this type of shitstorm, so the brady bunch can use it against us? do you not realize that the fucking ENEMY is everywhere? all around us? watching everything we do and post about..these fucktards scan every thread they can just to have something to call ATF about in the 1st place, and the biggest goddamed thing we can manage to do about it is whine about why our rights are getting raped every day, and then offer to drop the fucking dime on someone we dont agree with..well fuck that..that's not my idea of people I want to hang with, online or IRL.

 

MODERATORS: PLEASE DELETE MY ACCOUNT. I WANT NO PART OF A SITE THAT HAS SENIOR MEMBERS AND MODS CALLING THE BATFE ON OTHER MEMBERS. PERIOD!

 

You may not agree with Mike's decision to make drums, hell I dont..but it's his right to do so, and it's legal, so tough shit. I did not threaten to SUE/kick thier ass/ call the goddamed BATFE on the Akins people for fear of my 1022 getting pwned by uncle sam, I default to FREEDOM every time.

 

last word for me folks is this: Thank you for the info I have gotten off this forum, it's been a pleasure

and I have learned a lot. But the behavior I have seen as a result of this issue is NO different in my mind than calling the cops on my Neighbor because he has a "mean looking assault rifle" and "you shouldnt be able to have those" Therefore, I'm outta here. There are LOTS of other sites out there to paly around with at lunchtime. Take care all!

 

Bravo 26

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Thank goodness for guys like Bravo26. Is he one of the last of us that sees what is going on?

 

What has happened is that the anti's have become so powerful that we have conceeded the power to them and now they are in charge.

 

Our freedoms have been lost and we have to ask them for permission anytime we want a little of it back.

 

Asking for permission results in giving up more of your freedom.

 

When you rat on a guy, it results in giving up more of your freedom.

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+1 :(

 

Wow. just..I mean WOW... WTF?

 

How in the nine hells did we get to the point where we have forum members actually threatening to call the goddamned BATFE on other members????

 

 

Thats one of the things that bugs me. I certainly would not want to see the Saiga-12 become a DD, but to send the BATF after someone and try to get them to ban something that isnt even on the market yet sounds like something from the brady campaign, it just seems like treason to me. I really wanted to stay out of this, and if they want to ban me for dissenting then so be it, but I just cant not say anything in good concience.

 

However, the last thing we need to do is assist or encourage the ATF in banning anything.
Edited by frr
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The ATF will be involved in this at some point if the drums go into production. So calling them BEFORE producing like AGP did is the right thing to do. I can only speak from second hand accounts but many have said the ATF told AGP that 11 would make the Saiga a DD. So if the one who claims he's going to make these won't call the ATF then somebody has to, for everybody's protection.

 

If Mike's actions were only affecting him then nobody here would give a damn, and certainly nobody here would be calling the ATF. Since Mike has stated point blank he doesn't give a damn who he hurts in the pursuit of his own personal glory and gain, he has left us with no choice but to defend ourselves. I'm actually glad he announced this and gave us a chance to do something about it before the reclassification.

 

I'll stfu the second the ATF rules that this will not result in reclassification.

Edited by XD45
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The whole "destructive device" idea is just an anti-gun scheme to take a type of firearm out of the catagory that is protected by that pesky 2nd Amendment, and call it something else so that your right to own it can be taken away from you.

 

The only people who should agree with that, are people who are going to vote for Hillary Clinton. Mike doesn't agree with that.

 

I know that as gun owners, we are supposed to be afraid, scared and fearful all the time. That way, they've got us right where the want us.

 

But here is a guy who is not afraid, and now he is the enemy?

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But here is a guy who is not afraid, and now he is the enemy?

Yeah, he's reeeeeeeeal brave with our guns.

 

This guy ain't no freaking hero guys! He's not "resisting" the ATF. He's taunting them! Good Gawd peole, this guy is exactly what we DON'T need! He's reckless and narcicistic, and the consequences of his actions will harm many and benefit nobody. Not even him.

 

If we want to eliminate the power of the ATF (and we DO) then we need to be smart and fight where it counts, in the legislatures of the states and the nation. There is literally nothing that can be done directly to the ATF. Nothing! The law (as it is currently written and interpretted by the courts) is on their side. We can't change the laws by poking the ATF with a sharp stick.

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ruling shotgun magazines in excess of ten round and all revolving cylinder magazines the thing that makes a semi auto shotgun a DD, would do two things. protect future guns, and it would close thier stupid fucking loose end they have hanging over us on the matter ALL THE TIME. they probably wouldnt go for it anyway, BECAUSE of that.

 

it really DOES come down to is the mags making the gun the DD, so why not just make the fucking mags the DD themselves when attached to any shotgun? how the fuck does that not make sense? if you need more than THREE shots out of a twelve gauge, you are going to be dead real fast in a firefight, so whats the big deal ANYway.

 

toys (which is what this boils down to being), arent worth the price of having my gun seized.

 

people need to face the facts. there WILL be gun laws. if people stopped saying whaaa whaaa dont amke any laws, and said well, maybe the people that know what they are talking about could actually MAKE laws that made SENSE so that our right to bear arms uninfringed is not harmed, we would all be a whole hell of a lot better off.

 

and THAT is what i hate about the gun community. thats it right there on the knob.

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people need to face the facts. there WILL be gun laws. if people stopped saying whaaa whaaa dont amke any laws, and said well, maybe the people that know what they are talking about could actually MAKE laws that made SENSE so that our right to bear arms uninfringed is not harmed, we would all be a whole hell of a lot better off.

I hate to say it, but I agree. If someone with a lick of sense could make functional gun laws, I'd be happy. I love the 2nd, but not everyone should be armed. The constitution was written for a different time where people had education, morals, and a lot to lose. Citizens, who had the right to bear arms, were landowners: they were not vagrant crackheads.

 

Banning guns isn't the answer, and our constitution doesn't allow for it. But licensing is one possible answer, and the constitution allows for it. The constitution doesn't say "people have an unconditioned right to bear arms" it says "a right to bear arms." Just my $0.02.

 

However, I think BVamp is right that a rotating cylinder magazine will likely reclassify the S12 as a DD, as little sense as that makes. I don't see how a shotgun is any worse than a glock with a 32rnd magazine or an Ak with a 75rnd drum. But unfortunately the .50" rule is the rule, so we may be SOL. But hopefully someday someone may realize there's a difference between unqualified rights and qualified and when that day comes, maybe this silliness can be avoided.

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Pedal2Alloy

Yeah genius, because the ATF will never notice that you are selling drums over the internet unless you call them up and tell them beforehand. Such a fucking dumbshit. This isnt like some guy in the backwoods making an unregistered grease gun and not telling anyone- you are actually going out onto the internet and selling controversial items in public. Dont you think the ATF at least watches the major internet gun sites? How much of a secret do you think your plan to sell drums to the public will be?

 

You are asking permission because you need permission. You need permission because the ATF told kevin that he should not make drums or they would declare the saiga a DD. How much more crystal clear can you get? That equates to a "DONT FUCKING DO IT" ruling on the drums.

 

Your bravado will not cancel this out. The ATF doesnt give a fuck how much of a rebel you think you are beause you arent rebelling against them, you are rebelling against us. We like affordable saiga-12s. We like being able to import them. We like seeing tony rumore making a good living from working on saigas. And your little plan is going to shit on all of that.

 

And yeah, we could fight a DD ruling and we might help fight one if it was handed down, but we would rather not have to deal with that shit because it takes years to exhaust admin remedies and then work its way through court. It is complicated, annoying and expensive.

 

The biggest thing working in our favor is that the saiga itself, as imported, is clearly a sporting shotgun. Our modified ones are a lot more difficult to single out since they arent really manufactured by any company so much as customized by the end user or a gunsmith. I dont know if a drum would change any of this, but the ATF seems to think so.

Edited by beerslurpy
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You are asking permission because you need permission. You need permission because the ATF told kevin that he should not make drums or they would declare the saiga a DD. How much more crystal clear can you get? That equates to a "DONT FUCKING DO IT" ruling on the drums.

 

WTF do you know what the ATF told Kevin. There is no law saying you must ask please! There is no federal law about ammunition feeding devices! :angry::osama::eek:

 

This site is full of a bunch of asshats. You guys can not wait to eat your own. All it takes is one person to say "non sporting," to DD any shotgun. I suggest you spend your time and effort to make sure that person is sympathetic to us, not attacking firearms development.

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IMHO the 2nd doesn't limit ammo capacity, therefore the whole DD argument is nothing more than misderection..

does the 2nd mention anywhere that only sporting arms may be kept..I think not....

Giving any ground=incrementalism=eroded rigths.

Hating the gun community doesn't seem like an announcement Id make on this site. (even if it belonged to me)

In the words of Cooper "no amount of ammo is ever enough" as soon as someone says there is no logical need for so many rounds they are revealing themselves as Grabbers IMHO.. who the hell has a crytal ball to say that the need for a certain amount of rounds whould never be needed is a full of it know it all.

One of my uncles is a Major in the Army, has been in Iraq twice, responded to my question of "do you think its OK for civilians to own a .50 bmg" by saying " guns don't kill people, they kill each other" so his response was an unequivical yes. he went even further and told me "if the person isn't a criminal and they can afford it they should be able to own whatever the hell they want"..thats what this country was founded on...not some sissy, compromise w/ the enemy.

ban me if you will...

I can only hope the so called "gun nuts" can organize a coherent and efective campaing to leave the grabbers empty handed :smoke:

Forums like this one may provide ammo to the grabbers, but every shot they fire at the RKBA strengthens the resolve of the people to excersise the rigths our forefathers handed down to us....

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Well actually, the ATF didn't reclassify the Streetsweeper and USAS as Destructive devices. It was Lloyd Bentsen, Secretary of the Treasury under direction of Bill Clinton. The ATF is no longer under the Treasury Department, They are now under the Department of Justice

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This site is full of a bunch of asshats. You guys can not wait to eat your own.

You're absolutely right. You shouldn't even waste your time here. We're not worth it.

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If you think you must call the BATFE.

 

1. Drrink beer.

2. Drink more beer.

3. Pass out.

4. If you feel strongly enough the next morning that you are willing to fight a hangover to talk to the BATFE then Brother do what you gotta do.

5. Are you shure counseling won't help you change you'r mind abou 4?

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He's not paranoid, just look at two other shotguns that were changed to DD after being determined to be non sporting. Also don't forget that the "drum maker" doesn't give a rats ass how it affects the rest of you. I say you because mine is already a registered SBS and I can have a DD in Texas. That being said I won't give up any cash to someone who doesn't care about the gun community and is only motivated by greed.

 

I agree too. This is a fight we dont need right now.

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