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I don't think that 922(r) means what we think it means.


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Going by the "letter" of the law, I think you could be right, but I think the "spirit" of the law is what we're dealing with normally. Who knows? It's the ATF.

Edited by greatmoose
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Actually, it means exactly what we think it means. A semantic argument about the word "identical" won't work...I mean, no two parts are "exactly" identical, right?

 

Saigas with pistol grip/folding stock are illegal to import. Converting them to that configuration is exactly what 922 is addressing.

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Actually, it means exactly what we think it means. A semantic argument about the word "identical" won't work...I mean, no two parts are "exactly" identical, right?

 

Saigas with pistol grip/folding stock are illegal to import. Converting them to that configuration is exactly what 922 is addressing.

 

I think what the law addresses is that you can't take a crate full of Saiga 12Ks apart at the IZHMASH factory, ship them over here, reassemble them, and resell them as SBSs.

 

And secondly (again) the law says "is prohibited from import", not "would be prohibited from import". Saying that "we have to play the 10 parts game because what we assemble might be prohibited from import if we imported it" is inductive reasoning. The law does not say "All shotguns possessing a protruding pistol grip are prohibited from import", it refers to "sporting purposes" as determined by the AG - and the AG must consider each firearm type separately. Therefore, because the Saiga-12K is prohibited from import, I can't assemble a Saiga-12K from original factory parts inside the US. That's all.

 

Saigas with pistol grip/folding stock are illegal to import.
Not precisely. Saiga-12Ks are specifically banned from import by name, because they failed the AG's "sporting purposes" test before they were imported. But the Saiga-12 in "sporting" configuration has already been imported legally, and has passed the "sporting purposes" test. Therefore, as long as we don't use original factory parts to assemble a Saiga-12K that is specifically prohibited from import, we're fine. Edited by jlbraun
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I have heard that 922 essentially only applies to importers which when looking at it from jlbraun's perspective makes sense.

 

It would also make sense why I haven't heard of anyone getting busted for 922 when you can goto just about any gun show and see guns all over the place that violate 922.

 

An SKS with a fixed mag and any other stock is a 922 violation. You'd think if the ATF was going to be a stickler about it they would go after the umpteen jillion of these floating around.

 

Never mind the logistics of tracking down if your unmarked piston and disconnector are really US or Romanian manufacture.

 

That said it never hurts to protect yourself from it anyway.

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I have heard that 922 essentially only applies to importers which when looking at it from jlbraun's perspective makes sense.

 

It would also make sense why I haven't heard of anyone getting busted for 922 when you can goto just about any gun show and see guns all over the place that violate 922.

 

An SKS with a fixed mag and any other stock is a 922 violation. You'd think if the ATF was going to be a stickler about it they would go after the umpteen jillion of these floating around.

 

Never mind the logistics of tracking down if your unmarked piston and disconnector are really US or Romanian manufacture.

 

That said it never hurts to protect yourself from it anyway.

 

Yes, it was originally aimed at importers that were trying to comply with the 1989 import ban by just swapping out the foreign receiver on an imported gun to make it legal to sell.

If i remember correctly, the ten parts rule was the Congressional law in 1993 to stop the receiver swapping by requiring the importers to use less than 11 foreign parts if they decide to reconfigure the imports. The 10 parts rule was a stupid effort to slow down wepon sales that appeared like the ones banned in 1989. Unfortunately, the collateral damage was it would apply to gun owners too.

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'jlbraun'

 

They do not just go by the general list .

They also have a point system. Example The glock 28 and 25 can not be imported because it falls short of enough import points. Thats why Glock and several foreign gun makers can not import certain kinds of pistols.

 

With long guns they also have a similar system. A folding stock or collapsing is a disqualifying feature.

 

Well you still won't believe sooooooooo

 

 

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http://www.benelliusa.com/forum/showthread...7763&page=2

Edited by dog
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You will also notice that it does not mention "posses", but only "assemble". I have heard arguments about this concerning other "assault" weapons, something like it is only illegal to to do the actual assembly, the building of the gun. If you are not the person who assembled it, there is no problem with possessing it. The gun would still be the byproduct of a illegal act and contraband IMO. So I don't want to be the guinea pig in that case either, I'll stay with the safe route of using the required US parts.

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You will also notice that it does not mention "posses", but only "assemble". I have heard arguments about this concerning other "assault" weapons, something like it is only illegal to to do the actual assembly, the building of the gun. If you are not the person who assembled it, there is no problem with possessing it. The gun would still be the byproduct of a illegal act and contraband IMO. So I don't want to be the guinea pig in that case either, I'll stay with the safe route of using the required US parts.

 

From every thing I have ever read, possession is not the issue because the law was directed at gun importers/manufacturers, but confiscation still applies.

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Is a mini 14 suitable for sporting purposes?

 

Is a mini 14 with a 30 round mag suitable for sporting purposes?

 

922 r doesn't apply to 100 percent American made guns.

American made guns are exempt from much of what regulates foreign imports.

A mini 14 or 30 with a 30 round magazine would be considered not sporting enough to allow importation of as a foreign made weapon. Ruger tries to restrict the larger capacity mags from you and I regular people because of their PC politics. Ruger has anti-gun sentiment dating back to the founder Bill Ruger who had a hand in the 1994 Assault Weapon Ban.

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I am waiting to see how the Decision that the DC court af appeals made last friday-that the right to keep and bear is an individual right, and cannot be infringed will play out. As I see it "sporting purposes" is overrulled.

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Hello, new member, long time reader!

 

A personal story about the legal interpretation of gun laws (amateur or professional alike).

When I was approx. 21 years of age in the year 1999 I purchased a Remington 870 "Police." For non-gun-NUTZ this was a parkerized 870 with 18" barrel measured from tail to tip and sporting a nifty top folding stock. This was ALL from the factory mind you. I had no legal concerns for this shotgun at the time because I bought it from a legitimate dealer completely unaltered from the factory.

 

The night my life turned upside down. I was driving through a small town in the state of Nevada and was pulled over because my tags were expired although the new ones were in the mail and I was well within my grace period. Not the problem and this was easily addressed on the spot. I had a rifle case in the bed of my truck containing the aforementioned shotgun. The officer asked to inspect the case and having nothing to fear I readily complied to him inspecting my shotgun.

 

The officer inquires why I have a shotgun labeled "police" on its folding stock. I replied that in spite what the weapon has written on it, it is a perfectly legal and compliment. Now, get this, the officer measures the barrel of the shotgun from the end of the barrel to where the receiver begins. This measurement came to 17 and 3/4 inches. He tells me that I'm in possession of an unlawful firearm and then proceeds to arrest me. I try to tell him that he must remove the barrel from the shotgun in order to produce an accurate measurement, but he was not interested in this line of thought.

 

I'm a poor graduate student at the time and roust my poor father out of bed to drive 5 hours and bail me out of Nevada. Months go by as the trial is being set up, as trial often do. I keep telling myself that this is insanity and that surely they'll realize that this is a bogus charge. THIS DAY DOES NEVER COMES. The state of Nevada tell me that the federal statute is suitably vague and that they believe they have a case. I'm forced to borrow heavily from my family in order to fight this situation.

 

After about eight months and $15,000 dollars in lawyers fees the case has gone no where. I can not find anyone else to borrow me money for court. Ultimately, the DA offers me a deal at the fourth trial date. You plead guilty, do two years probation, and we'll make like the thing never happened. Broke, tired, and embarrassed to my family who had a hard time conceptualizing what was going on I ultimately capitulated. TWO LONG YEARS OF PROBATION.

 

If you've read this to here than God bless you.

 

I'm not perfect, but up till that point in my life I was a law abiding citizen. I'd never been arrested, nor ever been arrested since. There's a lot of you that will reach your own conclusions about my story. Some of you may be critical, that's fine. Some might find fault in some way that I handled a specific point, that's fine too. The point that I'm trying to get across is to be careful. Don't think that because you've thoroughly studied the fundamentals of 922 that you are sure not to be messed with (not saying you shouldn't make all these super cool variants of S12 either). Always be prepared. I've since moved on, have a awesome career and gun collection again and after much trepidation, purchased my first S12 about a year ago. I can do this because my charges were dropped and I've since expunged the case.

 

Always be prepared and be safe out there.

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ive been fucked too.

 

 

they measured the gun wrong, BY DEFINITION. DROP A GODDAMN DOWEL DOWN THE GUN WITH IT COCKED AND MEASURE THE BORE> IT IS FROM THE BREACH FACE. MAKE THEM PROVIDE THE EVIDENCE IN COURT, THEN PROVIDE THE LEGAL DEFINITION, AND DROP THE DOWEL RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE JUDGE. YOU WILL BE SENT HOME, AND THEN THEY WILL TRY TO KEEP THE GUN REGARDLESS. sue em

 

false arrest, false imprisonment, damage of wages, metal stress, blah blah.

 

the officer measured the gun in the incorrect fasion, and it is inexcuseable because he is supposed to know the law when he goes to execute it. fuck them. sue em for a million. the false arrest is a 100k lawsuit, false imprisonement a little more, and punitive damages are legitimate.

 

fuck them.

 

 

FYI -- remington has NEVER made a pump action 870 shorter than 18" with the rifle sights on it, the only one that *I* am aware of was a prototype run at 14" during the vietnam era, and it was a handful of guns that have since been destroyed to the number. the police model you OWN is 18" or 20" ONLY. the POLICE on your stock was the goddamn model name, to further that, and not a LEO designation. like that would have mattered. the cop measured it wrong, and everyone seems to have assumed that he did it right, or didnt know what the right way was, probably to get you to pay them. small towns are funny like that. they need money, and take out of towners like they did you. depending on the statue of limitation in NV, you may still have a lawsuit on your hands for quite a lot of money.

 

an 870 is oh, about a half inch longer barrel-wise than the measurement to the reciverfront. THIS IS NOT THE MEASUREMENT BY LAW. IT IS TO THE BREECH FACE WHILE CLOSED.

 

someone dont know WHAT the fuck they are talking baout and you are being unrightfully FUCKED like I was. I DIDNT get to sue. you should.

 

 

in MY case, I refused to plead to shit, and actually took to growling at the DA in court, which wasnt well recieved at all, and it was tossed, but they STILL KEPT my propoerty. if my thing had gone differently, believe me, I would have made the news. I am still not happy that they stole my property from me unjustly and unfairly.

 

 

you should force them to make you view the gun before it is destroyed, if it hasnt been already, and sue them in a big fucking way. defamtion of character would be a good start, along with the other crap.

 

ive seen that 870 that you own. it measures about 18.25" from the breech face, and about 17.5 from the reciever front, which is NOT the correct or legal way to measure it.

 

 

 

I know a lot of you guys are cops and in that sort of work and all, but if we arent entitiled to police protection under the constitution, then how is it that you are entitled to protection under it? just throwing that one out there.

 

sorry for the rant that makes total sense. read it if you want, or not.

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man, you two guys went through a lot of shit for nothing. i hope that day never comes for me, but if it does i have a friend who works for the ATF, i know the laws and hopefully could get it thrown out. i do agree, naujack, you should sue for quite a bit. get a jury trial and i think you could win, very very easily if they dont settle with you first.

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One thing I keep true to my heart: an innocent man never quits. I wouldn't plead out a case like that when I knew I was right. I'd appeal it forever and, if need be, draw attention to the NRA, militia, gun club, heck -forums like here for any and all assistance.

 

Why? Because tax payers (of respective city/township/county/state) absolutely detest false arrests where they get to foot the bill.

The best example I read up there was the "measure it in court" (in front of the jury preferably).

Better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6....(or even railroaded by 3).

 

Heck, you probably could even sue the manufacturer or dealer for selling you an 18" shotgun and giving you an illegal weapon instead if in fact, they did measure it correctly. Hey, if I bought a car with a "compliant" exhaust system listed on the bill of sale and then find out my car was impounded because it wasnt (regardless how they tested it)...guess some people have explaining -and paying- to do. Would I bad mouth the manufacturer? Of course not, I would merely post the details of the court case.

 

 

Past is past though. Its all lessons learned. I lived in Reno Nevada most of my life. Only moved out here to Ohio in 2004 for career reasons. For the most part, Nevada is a very pro-gun state. Regardless what town youre in, fight it to the county or state level and it would likely be overturned/dropped.

Unless there were "other" charges or circumstances, I'd have to say, and will always say, hold your ground. Be respectful...but hold your ground. With due process you should have the opportunity to present your defense. Not sure why any decent lawyer would take 15k to finally do nothing with the case. Personally, I'd fire them if a court date wasnt set immediately (right to a speedy trial I believe we have). Bogging things down with litigation, depositions, and all sorts of whatever -blah. The law and method to measure is clear, set the date. If the officer doesnt appear -not my problem. We win.

 

 

I digress. Hindsight is 20/20. Thankfully you got it expunged.

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Ilive (temporarily) in PG Co. Md. The county prosecutor has stated puplicly that he will agressively prosecute anyone with a gun that he can.

Without an unobtainable CCW permit-you can only transport a handgun or "listed" (assault by AWB definition) gun from a place where it is legal to use/store to another.

Stop on the way to the range for a burger-jail.

If your pistol is NOT in a seperate locked compartment from the magazine-jail.

If you have a round in any magazine -even one in a seperate locked compartment you have a "loaded weapon"-jail

If you have ammunition and a magazine OR pistol/"listed weapon" in the same compartment-jail.

 

The list goes on.

 

28 months to retirement and I am out of here.

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B)-->

QUOTE(G O B @ Mar 14 2007, 06:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ilive (temporarily) in PG Co. Md. The county prosecutor has stated puplicly that he will agressively prosecute anyone with a gun that he can.

Without an unobtainable CCW permit-you can only transport a handgun or "listed" (assault by AWB definition) gun from a place where it is legal to use/store to another.

Stop on the way to the range for a burger-jail.

If your pistol is NOT in a seperate locked compartment from the magazine-jail.

If you have a round in any magazine -even one in a seperate locked compartment you have a "loaded weapon"-jail

If you have ammunition and a magazine OR pistol/"listed weapon" in the same compartment-jail.

 

The list goes on.

 

28 months to retirement and I am out of here.

 

Water is much better down here south of you!

 

We'll take you!

 

Don't know how far Richmond is from your town, but if you ever feel like trying the gun competition thing, let me know. We have a 3 gun match, and I run a smallish (~50 rounds of birdshot) match after our pistol match, fun places to play!

 

Maryland is one of the more extreme states as far as gun laws/prosecution, or so I hear. There is a state match up there soon (IDPA) that I was toying with attending. You might have just scared me away :o

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