macbeau 902 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 In my analysis, regarding this drum magazine & declaring the Saiga Shotgun's as DD's debate, I see that there is a disparity in age of those who were (or could have been) affected by REAL gun bans and those who were either too young or uninterested at the time to have been affected by the largest sweeping gun control measures since 1968. By that, I am refereing to the Machinegun Act of May 1986 and The Bush I ban of December, 1989. I was very much affected by both. Most here are living in the shadow of the Clinton years ban (which has expired as of 08/04) and the "Brady" law - (which is still in effect and requires all the BG check and waiting period) .... Granted, these were bad times for us all, and the future does not bode well for gun (AK/Saiga) owners especially. However - people are running around on their assumptions on what the ATF may or may not do to ban and ostersizing people, simply base on a non-scientific or REALITY BASED assumption. I call it "fear"! I also call it "Bullshit"... Here is the problem as I see it... Many people are concerned (..nay, afraid) that if someone produces a drum, 11+ capacity that will fit into a Saiga-12 shotgun, the BATFE will declare their shotgun itself as a destructive device, just like what happened with the USAS-12, StreetSweeper and Striker-12 in 2002. Some history for those of you who don't know, or are too young to remember this, but, the Striker-12 was a South African invention that came into this country starting in the early '80's as a 12 gauge, 12-round cylinder, semi-auto - with no provision for less than 12 rounds of capacity AT ALL. It sold in 1985 for about $700 - $1000 on the retail market and was perfectly legal at the time. In 1985-1986, the U.S. got serious about it's sanctions against S.A. and banned further importation. That's when the StreetSweeper (an American made clone of the Strike-12) started being made and sold in this country and it went for around $1200- $1500 retail. Again, it had a 12 round cylinder with no provision for smaller capacity mag, and was also a semi-auto. The USAS-12, again - also a semi-auto, and was a capitalistic off-shoot from the U.S. Army's OLIN / CLAW's program (That my grandfather was involved in) and, became available on the U.S. market in about late 1987. It's external lines resembled those of the AR-15/M-16 and it can with 10 round "box" mags or a 20-round drum ONLY. No lesser capacities were offered for any of these and no aftermarket company stepped forward during that time frame - there was no reson too. In 1989 - enter the Stockton school-yard shooting on the heels of the L.A. McDonalds "Uzi carbine" shooting, and there was a big push in Congress to ban so-called "Assault Weapons". That is the ban most of us recognize today from the "good 'ole days" of pre-ban stuff - (IE: Bush I Ban). However - that ban wasn't far reaching enough to satisfy the "ANTI's", so the onus was put on the BATF (then and under the Dept. of the Treasury - Under Lloyd Benson) to come up with an interpretation that included the dreaded USAS-12, StreetSweeper and Striker-12. Since the BATF had not yet "defined" a shotgun yet, here was their opportunity to define an "un-sporting" shotgun. In their original (IN-HOUSE rulings), no mention was made on MAGAZINE CAPACITY. These were singled out by name only as being "un-sporting" and further defined as Destructive Devices under the definitions outlined here... IN THE BANNING OF THE STRIKER-12, STREETSWEEPER and USAS-12 18 U.S.C. 921 section (a) item (4): Destructive Devices and 26 U.S.C.5842 section (f) item (2) (Nonsporting shotguns having a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter) ...as being (please read these for yourselves...) "(f) [T]he term 'destructive device means... (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrles of which have a bore more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;. . . " ...Hence, they lost their status as shotgun's! They didn't just get declared DD's.... As far as the ATF is concerned, they never were "shotguns"- as it were. [FYI - Just because your 5Kw generator runs on premium unleaded, it doesn't make it a Ferrari (or even a car). It's still a generator (and not a car) as far as the BATFE is concerned - it just took them a while to figure out that your generator really wasn't a car - Insofar as the USAS-12, StreetSweeper and Striker-12 were "shotguns". The same logic was applied here. Now - some of you may argue that the S-12's were originally sold as "shotgun's", hence if the ATF "couldn't" changed their mind - and they can change it on the S-12 (..or S-20, or S410) too - as they often do on other guns (do the reasearch). That is SO VERY TRUE. BUT - Hello! - Welcome to the ADULT world of gun ownership in the U.S. (of Friken) A.! This is the story of my life... Yeah - the ATF ain't going away - tell me something I don't know - johnny-come-lately's! But they ain't gonna make their job more difficuly either. The ATF is a run-away bureaucratic organ that seems to be able to do what they want. But, they require an new edict from the- Do-it-to-protect-us-all" crowd... Here is something even you dumbassYankees might understand... 1. The Saiga Shotgun has never been sold with a >5 magazine at retail. 2. It passes both the ATF's and U.S. Custom's "sniff test" (exempt of 922® - 925) as it enters the country as being for "legitimate sporting purposes". 3. Saiga (Izhmesh) and EAA (RAA) have never offered a magazine greater than 5 rounds as a factory accessory. 4. Given it's "as-sold" at retail configuration, EVERY SINGLE SAIGA SHOTGUN THAT HAS ENTERED THIS COUNTRY HAS DONE SO UNDER THE DIRECTION OF THE ATF AND U.S. CUSTOMS and being "legitimate" and it is up to the comsumer to change that status... 5. Of all the USAS-12's, StreetSweeper's and Striker-12's ever sold in this country, their numbers were less than 10,000 - combined... (Saiga-12's alone are well over 25,000 (NCIC STATS)) That is not a status or environment that the USAS-12, StreetSweeper or Striker-12 had - ever... One Interesting note - when they did ban the USAS-12, StreetSweeper and Striker-12, is was under a kind of amnesty where the owners had to register them, but no tax (no $200 stamp) was levied. As I understand it, the people who LEGALLY owned these arms in their state before the ban - even in places where DD's are not allowed (even California!) - got to keep them. The only problem came up when they wanted to TRANSFER (sell) them. Then they had to be transfered out of state, but ultimately to a buyer had to pay retail price + the $200 NFA tax on them... I never heard of a problem or a law suit related to doing that. I stick to my assertion that this is a different situation than the USAS-12, StreetSweeper or Striker-12 The ATF doesn't want to have to rule on this. They have allowed Saiga SG's (and rifles) into this country (via U.S. Customs) for about 10 year now. It is completely different from the USAS-12, StreetSweeper or Striker-12 in how it is sold, marketed and / or regulated. What will likely happen (The BATFE is so unpredictable these days - as they have been since 1968..) is that they will declare that the posessing a BOX magazine OR a DRUM magazine in excess of 10 rounds makes the Saiga series of shotguns a DD. Owning a Saiga 12, 20 or 410 = legal Owning one of MD's Shotgun Drums = legal Owning a Saiga (anything) + MD's (or anyone else's +10 Drums) = DD [Regardless of guage - because the same receiver is used in all three.] I keep hearing about the Akins Accelerator stock for the 10/22. Check me if I am wrong, but did that get all Ruger (or Ruger clones of) 10/22's declared machineguns, just because some DID get to the public? NO! The ATF said that posessing a 10/22 WITH and AKIN'S stock made it a machinegun. That is how this logic follows. It is different than a suppressor (as I have also heard) - as suppressors are regulated in their own right (under NFA) - regardless of posessing any firearm for them to fit on. The fly in the ointment is if a Congress-"person" or a Senator REALLY gets a hard-on against Saiga's then they will ban them by name. And that may happen anyway, the way things look now. However - Bvamps actions (at least in regard to the DISCUSSION or Drum Magazine or >10 rounds and what we - the rabble have been privy to so far) are completely unfounded and alarmist. Based on the info today, he is being overly guarded, but absolutely silly in his assertions and abusing his power as a moderator. [Ergo - he has taken the "moderate" out of "moderator"] If anyone should be banned, it's him. I know Makc won't do it, even though he probably should... Despite that, I expect to be banned next by probably Makc (max) because I am dissin' the mod who dissed Cobra. I just thought ya'll should be informed - Especially you, Bvamp - you are wound wayyyyy to tight... Macbeau sends... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 The S-12 receiver is completely different then the S-20/410 receiver. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 (edited) The S-12 receiver is completely different then the S-20/410 receiver. Tony Somehow - when boiled down - I don't think that'll figure into the ATF's rationale. I think ALL Saiga shotgun reveivers will be lumped into the same group as being "adaptable" to one another or something like that. The Politician's are only gonna hear "Saiga Shotgun" or "Saiga". No distinction will be made between calibers/gauges... With all due respect to Tony and his vast experience, that's just my experience, Macbeau sends... [Edited out comments that were not well thought out and undeserved at this point. My appologies.] Macbeau sends... Edited March 14, 2007 by macbeau Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scottaaz 0 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 You wont get banned they will just start erasing your posts like they have done mine. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 ... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocinante 100 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 There needs to be a legal and political forum like thehighroad.com has. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GTwannabe 1 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Strikers/Streetsweepers were imported/produced without ATF approval. They never received the shotgun exemption, so they were always Destructive Devices. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RollingThunder 0 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 Hey macbeau! This was a very interesting lesson about the strange bans you got in the US. I was unaware of all of that up until the Clinto ban. Especially the SS/Striker part was very informative. I guess most of us from time to time let biased opinions and fear control our minds when deciding what to do. Let the informed decisions rule - and let there be rock! Thanks! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Why 0 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I have personaly found this quite interesting.. Thank you for posting it.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 A couple points. The S-.410 cannot be declared a DD due to the bore of .410' wich is less than 1/2 ". It is all in limbo as I see it , due to the decision last friday by the DC Court of Appeals that the right to keep and bear is an individual right. The "sporting purpose" language would appear to be moot unless the court is overturned on appeal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ironhead7544 35 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 I dont think the Striker was really a semi auto. I think it was more like a double action revolver or might have been spring loaded somehow. Anyone have one? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 At the time they were made or imported, they didn't need AFT approval, they only had to deal with Custom's (import-wise) and the patent office on this side... Again, your age tell's on you. Folding stock, Chinese-made Norinco's and Poly-Tech's, w/bayo lug, w/ 3 3-round CHINESE-made mags were going for less than $300, NIB. ...and, The act of the ATF was retroactive. Big Difference. Strikers/Streetsweepers were imported/produced without ATF approval. They never received the shotgun exemption, so they were always Destructive Devices. That statement was made assuming a "multiple projectile", Semi-Auto, converted w/ pistol grip (or any of the other sunsetted crap via 922®) AND a >10 Magazine. Remember - The ATF can come up with some REALLY FUNKY rules & EDICTS, if they wanna ban something. Also remember - they can declare that ANY of the Saiga shotguns are readily adaptable to one another - regardless of fact or proof, so all gauges" -perhaps even calibers- could be banned... But, I think something that far sweeping is VERY unlikely. I'm just pointing out that it could happen. MD's mag, not withstanding. The whole point of this is that NONE of us know's what the BATFE will come up with next. I will say this - They generally follow the Excutive Orders, internal rulings (via input for the Tech-Branch) and Act's of Congress TO THE LETTER. Hell - they even have their own courts and judges that are outside the regular Federal Judicial System... Just my experience.... Macbeau sends... A couple points. The S-.410 cannot be declared a DD due to the bore of .410' wich is less than 1/2 ".It is all in limbo as I see it , due to the decision last friday by the DC Court of Appeals that the right to keep and bear is an individual right. The "sporting purpose" language would appear to be moot unless the court is overturned on appeal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Caspian 32 Posted March 14, 2007 Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 one of two things will happen: 1) you will disagree with bvamp enough times that he considers you "trolling". (disagreeing includes correcting his misinformed posts). he will then give you a temporary ban. 2) you will get tired of it and just give up, realizing that trying to educate him is a lost cause. I did both of those things. Good luck in your endevours. Caspian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macbeau 902 Posted March 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2007 one of two things will happen: 1) you will disagree with bvamp enough times that he considers you "trolling". (disagreeing includes correcting his misinformed posts). he will then give you a temporary ban. 2) you will get tired of it and just give up, realizing that trying to educate him is a lost cause. I did both of those things. Good luck in your endevours. Caspian (*sigh*) - Yeah - I did both, but I never even got a warning, despite my best efforts (AND DELETION OF COMMENTS [MINE AND THEIR'S). But now that Corba is back - AS A MOD, NO LESS, I could care less. (Seriously). Bvamp never aided me in anything AK-related but Cobra has been a God-Send. So, I gives a damn at this point. Something tells me that MAX figured promenantly in that exchance - but I don't wanna poke the body here. I'd love to hear the story, but I'd rather have Cobra back in-leiu... Sacrafices must be made. Macbeau sends... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikeNM 8 Posted March 15, 2007 Report Share Posted March 15, 2007 Well, I'm 65 + and I have never could see WHY this "bvamp" person feels he has to use the foul computer language on his posts????. At the very least he shows himself as immature? So what does he gain? I'm not IMPRESSED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Shannon has done more for this forum/site than ANY of "bvamps" (check it out). He must be a Democrat?? He has "soiled" himself again. MikeNM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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