Anybody considered the Kvar Bullpup for this?

[kfb2b 0]

I was wondering about this. I had previously thought about doing the Bullpup thing, as advertised in the latest SGN, but have changed my mind about the rifle, but am wondering - would it be legal for the 20ga gun????

[Red Jacket 329]

we're working up one in a S12 . So , there ya go . be attentive to the overall length .

[kmoore 3]

The overall length of the shotgun is the detail that the feds nailed the guys at Ruby Ridge on. Asked him to cut the bbl back, he did to a legal length, but didn't check the length of the whole shotgun.

[ArcFault 4]

Well?

 

OAL on a shotty is... ?

 

I mean, I think I know it's 26" on a rifle, but is the shotgun the same?

[kmoore 3]

IIRC, it's 26 inches.

 

As a reminder, this distance is measured with the stock fully extended or folded out.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, I don't know anyone who has a bbl of 18 + inches who ends up with < 8 inches in the reciever/stock. Thus, this rule seems good for entrapping someone who isn't thinking about the little regarded OAL requirements. But not really applicable. IOW, I think you are much more likely to reach the SBS status by shortening bbl than by keeping a longer bbl and shortening the rest.

Edited March 31, 2007 by kmoore

[uzitiger 193]

I thought shotguns have to be 28" minimum length. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I've seen many people suggest that when you shorten the barrel make it about 18 1/2" long in case some overzealous (or dishonest) ATF agent measures the barrel in an improper manner. Sometimes an extra half inch could mean the difference of being free or getting sodomized in some federal prison.

Edited April 3, 2007 by uzitiger

[ArcFault 4]

I thought shotguns have to be 28" minimum length. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I've seen many people suggest that when you shorten the barrel make it about 18 1/2" long in case some overzealous (or dishonest) ATF agent measures the barrel in an improper manner. Sometimes an extra half inch could mean the difference of being free or getting sodomized in some federal prison.

 

I looked it up, it is in fact 26". Although, it is measured from the stock in its shortest config., ie. folded or collapsed. With a 19" Saiga this still gives you around 29 inches, so it really isn't an issue. Local laws may vary though, so to be sure, always look up your states laws yourself.

 

Going a little over on the length is probably a good idea, most manufacturers do it.

Edited April 3, 2007 by ArcFault

[JK-47 33]

I belive the reason for the extra 1/2" of barrel length was because OAL is often measured with a tape measure, and that little steel endpiece on the tape is often rivited on very loosely. This makes the tapemeasure innacurate and results in meaurements on the short side of the actual length, sometimes by 1/4" or more.

[IndyArms 10,186]

if they cant read a tape measure, they have NO BUSINESS using one...

 

 

[ArcFault 4]

The tab on the end of the tape is loose for a reason, usually it will move by about 1/16" or the same as the thickness of the tab itself, this is so you can get an accurate measurement no matter which side of the tab you are using. If you are hooking it over something it pulls out to the end and if you are butting it up against a surface to be measured from it slides in thus ensuring that you will be using the same section of tape either way.

 

Still, leaving the bbl long is simply a matter of covering your own ass by leaving no room for debate.

[BlenderWizard 12]

The tab on the end of the tape is loose for a reason, usually it will move by about 1/16" or the same as the thickness of the tab itself, this is so you can get an accurate measurement no matter which side of the tab you are using. If you are hooking it over something it pulls out to the end and if you are butting it up against a surface to be measured from it slides in thus ensuring that you will be using the same section of tape either way.

 

Still, leaving the bbl long is simply a matter of covering your own ass by leaving no room for debate.

 

 

 

Glad someone else knew this.

[RDSWriter 5]

I looked it up, it is in fact 26". Although, it is measured from the stock in its shortest config., ie. folded or collapsed. With a 19" Saiga this still gives you around 29 inches, so it really isn't an issue. Local laws may vary though, so to be sure, always look up your states laws yourself.

 

Going a little over on the length is probably a good idea, most manufacturers do it.

 

I disagree with regards to federal law. Federal regulations are 26" OAL with the permanently attached stock in the extended position. However if the stock can be quickly detached (ala Thompon or UZI), then the the rifle must meet the minimum OAL without the stock attached.

 

In short, measure with the stock extended - provided the stock is not readily detachable and the weapon is meant to be fired from the shoulder.

 

That being said, KNOW YOUR STATE LAWS. Some states have different OAL measurements and further state that the OAL is with 'the shortest configuration.'

Edited April 24, 2007 by RDSWriter

[chibajoe 0]

I'm working on the writeup (admitedly for a different forum, but I'll post it here also), but here's a little teaser pic:

 

[fobmagi 0]

I belive the reason for the extra 1/2" of barrel length was because OAL is often measured with a tape measure, and that little steel endpiece on the tape is often rivited on very loosely. This makes the tapemeasure innacurate and results in meaurements on the short side of the actual length, sometimes by 1/4" or more.

 

I have been told (by a local atf agent) they have a 16" / 18" precut steel rod to measure barrels. They slide the rod down the barrel and rest the bottom end against the bolt face. This is the standard barrel length measuring technique.

 

As for leaving an extra 1/4"-1/2", is a 1/2" of barrel seriously worth your anal virginity? What if the bolt is slightly hung and wont push all the way closed? I know my saiga does if I let it gently close. Sure, it cant fire in that configuration but since when has batfe let common sense enter into the situation?

[BobAsh 582]

Always leave 1/4" extra. Always.

[uzitiger 193]

I thought shotguns have to be 28" minimum length. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I've seen many people suggest that when you shorten the barrel make it about 18 1/2" long in case some overzealous (or dishonest) ATF agent measures the barrel in an improper manner. Sometimes an extra half inch could mean the difference of being free or getting sodomized in some federal prison.

 

I looked it up, it is in fact 26". Although, it is measured from the stock in its shortest config., ie. folded or collapsed. With a 19" Saiga this still gives you around 29 inches, so it really isn't an issue. Local laws may vary though, so to be sure, always look up your states laws yourself.

 

Going a little over on the length is probably a good idea, most manufacturers do it.

 

When I lived in Michigan the law there required rifles to have a minimum of 30" otherwise they had to be registered as 'pistols'. So some Kel Tek 2000 carbines required a pistol permit while others with a 1/2" pad were considered rifles. Michigan has some idiotic laws against handguns which were enacted thanks to the Ku Klux Klan.

[cscharlie 107]

There have been brands of tape mesaure that allowed as much as .25" of play. This was demonstrated to me by more than one State Trooper as they were waiting to testify against someone who didn't leave that extra .25". The one with the tape in his hand said"watch the Judge's face when I measure the barrel right infront of him and he can read it himself as being to short" Then I watched him do just that and get a conviction.

[Twinsen 86]

There have been brands of tape mesaure that allowed as much as .25" of play. This was demonstrated to me by more than one State Trooper as they were waiting to testify against someone who didn't leave that extra .25". The one with the tape in his hand said"watch the Judge's face when I measure the barrel right infront of him and he can read it himself as being to short" Then I watched him do just that and get a conviction.

To think that's what our government spends their time on... wow.

[Bad Bob 0]

Always leave 1/4" extra. Always.

At the very least. In my opinion, it's ALWAYS wise to have insurance. You never know when Murphy is going to come down with rabies (and maybe with AIDS, too) and, right out of no where (maybe while you're talking on the phone with family), bite the h@ll out of your lower extremities...

[Bad Bob 0]

To think that's what our government spends their time on... wow.

I've worked for Uncle Sam, a time or two. If you need to destroy something, he does OK, if you give him a little time (and a few spare American lives) to practice with. Anything else, and you're toast. Period. Hearing folks talk about 'government-run-health-care' makes me laugh my @ss off - but only because I'm old enough that I'll probably be in the ground before I need to deal with it! For you young folks, when you hear 'government-run-health-care,' or 'universal-health-care,' just think 'the-Publishers-Clearing-House-check-is-in-the-mail.' Oh, you betcha! Take a day off from work to meet the mail man at the door...

[chibajoe 0]

we're working up one in a S12 . So , there ya go . be attentive to the overall length .

 

How are you dealing with the trigger? I had to cut the hell out of the stock trigger to get it to clear the saiga 20 barrel, and the 12 is a significantly larger barrel. Also, what are you thoughts on replacing the worthless trigger link wire with some kind of solid rod setup to improve the trigger feel?

[akman 0]

bend bike wheel steel rod.

 

Also, what are you thoughts on replacing the worthless trigger link wire with some kind of solid rod setup to improve the trigger feel?

[VDW 0]

I thought shotguns have to be 28" minimum length. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

I've seen many people suggest that when you shorten the barrel make it about 18 1/2" long in case some overzealous (or dishonest) ATF agent measures the barrel in an improper manner. Sometimes an extra half inch could mean the difference of being free or getting sodomized in some federal prison.

 

I looked it up, it is in fact 26". Although, it is measured from the stock in its shortest config., ie. folded or collapsed. With a 19" Saiga this still gives you around 29 inches, so it really isn't an issue. Local laws may vary though, so to be sure, always look up your states laws yourself.

 

Going a little over on the length is probably a good idea, most manufacturers do it.

 

Can I just weld a back plate on the end of my receiver then? I have well over 26" in overall length and like the pistol grip look. Are there any regs on having to have a shoulder stock? If so, can someone tell me how hard it is to do an underfolder setup? Thanks.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I think NOT having a stock throws it into some other configuration that is not looked upon with glee, by the friends at the ATF...

 

Its one thing to have one and have it folded to the side or under...cause it HAS one ... not having one at all...

 

[csspecs 1,987]

Mossburg 500 cruiser is ok with just a pistol grip, just keep your overall above 26. I will metion that my brothers 20 would not cycle when we fired it with just the grip, and the gun recoils about 5+ inches so keep your face back (I learned this getting a busted lip the first time)

 

Edited April 12, 2008 by csspecs

[uzitiger 193]

Mossburg 500 cruiser is ok with just a pistol grip, just keep your overall above 26. I will metion that my brothers 20 would not cycle when we fired it with just the grip, and the gun recoils about 5+ inches so keep your face back (I learned this getting a busted lip the first time)

 

 

I also took a hit on the chin with a Mossberg 500 pistol grip shotgun.

 

Anyone who wants to make a bullpup S-20 remember if you're left handed, forget about it. The shells will eject in your face.

[IndyArms 10,186]

maybe I am thinking of rifles... without a buttstock...

 

 

[jhereg 0]

I think NOT having a stock throws it into some other configuration that is not looked upon with glee, by the friends at the ATF...

 

Its one thing to have one and have it folded to the side or under...cause it HAS one ... not having one at all...

 

 

 

A rifle or shotgun *may* have a buttstock, but it is not required. A shotgun must be at least 26" OAL w/ a barrell of at least 18". If you like the pistol grip look w/o a stock. It will be legal from a length point of view (under federal law) as long as you meet the 18"/26" requirements.

[VDW 0]

So it sounds like it is OK to just have no shoulder stock, just a pistol grip. As far as the cylcling, as long as you hold it firmly, I haven't had any malfunctions, even with birdshot.

[Hoopty 0]

Cheap universal crap at that. Cycled like crap not holding it firmly though. haha