So tell me about DD's

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I think I'm very clear on the current situation with rifles (16in and over bbl and 26in OAL under 1/2 in bbl diameter) and you're good to go.

 

Not so sure about shotguns however. Yeah there's the 18in bbl 26in OAL, but then there seems to be this "judgement call" of the atf on shotguns needing a sporting purpose that's got me put off a bit. I'd love to convert (922r compliant of course), and make my S20 as nice as my S308's. Does anyone have any evidence on the atf's view of this exact matter? They seem really hung up on hicaps (based on looking at their websites rulings and "research"). Finally got my s20 functional with a 1911 10lb recoil spring, and now I'm really thinking (but want to stay out of the pokey too).

[kmoore 3]

one type of DD is a firearm with a bore > .5 inch (10,12,16,20 and 28 gauges). The law states that shotguns are exempt from this status as they are deemed sporting. The Secretary of Treasury has the right to revoke the exemption, reinstating the DD designation, and has done so on 3 shotguns. The USAS12, Streetsweeper and the striker 12.

 

The term sporting purpose is deemed to mean hunting and clays, and does not include action shooting events or defensive deployment.

 

There has been no clear statement given to the public, but some feel that adding a mag > 10 rounds may cause the reclassification.

 

Also, the Saiga is only importable in a sporting configuration (sans the pistol grip, 5 rnd mags). And you can't create a shotgun that couldn't be imported with greater than 10 foriegn parts, thus the conversion needs to involve american made parts.

 

 

The bbl length and OAL dimensions you mention are for defining SBR's and SBshotguns. While they are regulated requiring CLEO sign off and the $200 stamp, they are a different creature.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

So are these the points we're hanging our hat on...?

 

We are manufacturing a firearm using no more than 10 imported parts, and because the receiver itself was deemed importable (ie a sporting setup), we have the ATF's blessing that the whole combo is sporting?

It seems like the mag capacity issue is not a specific component of either the 922r or the NFA regulations.

 

 

Said differently, it wouldn't matter for saiga purposes if it's a shotgun or not since the fact the receiver was importable in the first place implies it passes the sporting test, as long as the parts count is under 10 in total, and otherwise passes NFA rules? The receiver having been imported as sporting is the key because it means that the ATF itself blessed the fact that it wasn't convertable to a full auto setup (not sure if it could be or not, but my point is that the ATF already deemed it was sporting enough).

 

Is that it?

[kmoore 3]

So are these the points we're hanging our hat on...?

 

We are manufacturing a firearm using no more than 10 imported parts, and because the receiver itself was deemed importable (ie a sporting setup), we have the ATF's blessing that the whole combo is sporting?

It seems like the mag capacity issue is not a specific component of either the 922r or the NFA regulations.

 

 

Said differently, it wouldn't matter for saiga purposes if it's a shotgun or not since the fact the receiver was importable in the first place implies it passes the sporting test, as long as the parts count is under 10 in total, and otherwise passes NFA rules? The receiver having been imported as sporting is the key because it means that the ATF itself blessed the fact that it wasn't convertable to a full auto setup (not sure if it could be or not, but my point is that the ATF already deemed it was sporting enough).

 

Is that it?

Let me first say that my understanding of these issues is far from perfect, but here's what I understand.

 

First, the reciever is not the firearm. It is the part that is registered as the firearm and sometimes is treated as such (for instance, if you take a virgin AR reciever and build a pistol with it, then it is always a pistol in the eyes of the law.)

 

Anyways, the laws currently forbids import of firearms that aren't recognized as suitable for sporting purposes (same verbiage as used in the Large bore DD status of shotguns, but different application). To keep us from importing parts and building these forbidden forms of firearms, it also states that you can't build a firearm in illegal configuration. So, converting a Saiga to pistol grip version, or adding a mag of > 5 rounds would be an illegal form, if it's considered a foreign firearm.

 

For the firearm to be considered foriegn in nature, it must have more than ten foriegn parts ( of the list of 20 parts that can make up a firearm). So, if in your conversion you reduce the total number of foriegn parts to 10 or fewer, then it is considered a domestic firearm, and is legal.

 

Currently, NO version of a Saiga is deemed to be a large bore DD.

 

To boil it down, Yes you can use an imported reciever to make an illegal firearm. You CAN convert them to full auto (many have, but these gunsmiths are licensed to do so). You can also convert them to Pistol griped high capacity models. Both of these actions could get you in serious trouble.

 

Another example to make you rethink the importance of the reciever. It's possible that I could manufacture my own reciever, and add 10 or more foriegn parts (trigger, bbl, stock, magazine follower, etc) and that would be an illegal firearm as it would be considered to be a foriegn firearm in an illegal configuration that I manufactured.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Thanks for the clarifications.

 

So to boil it down about as far as you can go...

• Keep foreign parts count to 10 or fewer (got it)
  
• Don't build a combination that's deemed as something that requires a tax stamp (full auto, or - question - whatever the other NFA rules might state???)
  
• And hope for damn sure that the ATF doesn't come back later and rule it's a non sporting shotgun (and thus a DD).
  
• And hope for damn sure that they don't "reconclude" that the receivers are too easily converted to full auto status to be a no-no in themselves?
  

The bit that really puzzles me is where is the limit described (document, rulings, anything) about what we can do as long as the foreign parts count is 10 or under (it seems the NFA rules are a clear source for something such as a full auto, and it hints at the DD ruling being interpretive). It seems like there are two standards (one clearly defined by 922r for the over 10 part foreign stuff, and another for the US stuff that I have yet to clearly understand based on anything other than sets of rulings and heresay - but I'd assume the NFA rules play into it)

 

I realize that most people aren't hung up on the last two points since we see pics of coverted shottys on this site, hicaps, etc, etc. I'm in with y'all on whereever this whole thing lands when frau Clintonbuehler (or similar gun hater) is at the reigns, but I'm still trying to figure out the risks. Thanks for putting up with my walk down the slippery legal/legislation/bureaurcratic path...

[kmoore 3]

Search on "soupbowl" and you'll get a letter with the ATF's ruling on what parts constitute a Saiga shotgun. There are 13 in a sporter version (doesn't count the pistol grip). Soupbowl is the name of the website that hosted the letter, some converter was clarifying years ago, and got the ATF to list the parts of the shotgun and rifles in a letter. It's posted numerous times, mostly in the S12 section as that is the busiest on this site.

 

Remember, most anything could be made full auto. I don't know that the Saiga is any harder or easier than other platforms. But the atf won't be recalculating based on what could be done with a reciever. The only way to get into trouble is to build a sbs (<18 inch bbl or OAL < 26 inches) or to convert to pistol grip without using USA parts to lower the foriegn parts count.

 

The rampant speculation is that if there were drums made with >10 round capacity the ATF would classify the shotgun, or the shotgun/drum combo as a DD. At this point it is speculation and no one really knows for sure.

 

It is a slippery path. I'd encourage you to research on your own, or ask others rather than take my word on how things are.

Edited April 8, 2007 by kmoore

[Bvamp 604]

I dont know if you addressed it, but when they brought the tooling for the striker12 here, they tried to imprison the people who brought the tooling in and made them HERE and sold them, and could only stop them from making them, AND classified it as a DD.

 

but those guns were TOYS compared to the great saiga shotguns. our russian friends might have found something there. it would be a tradgedy to not allow more to come into the country, to arm our children and thier children.

 

BAN THE PART IN COMBINATION WITH THE GUN WITHOUT A DD STAMP AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS! I bet everyone will be pleasantly surprised, IF ITS DONE RIGHT. this is what really needs to be discussed. thats what I think, and I dont mind tellin' ya'.

 

that would devalue the USAS12 (and make it availble to the public again), still keep the striker banned, and it solves the entire problem in one never ending swoop. everyone should wind up being happy in the long run, actually.

[Twinsen 86]

Can somebody tell me what DD stands for? This is driving me nuts.

Edited May 19, 2007 by Twinsen

[L9X25 0]

DD=Destructive Device

[uzitiger 193]

If the BATFE will call Saigas DDs then we're better off without the drum magazines. I read Pete Kokalis' article in Shotgun News about drum magazines where he calls them dumb. These are some examples he gave:

Drums are bulky, heavy and sometimes not so reliable. The PPSh drum magazine had to be fitted to the weapon while stick mags could be interchanged. The stick mags hold 35 rounds while the drum holds 71 so two sticks can do the work of one drum. The dual drum magazine for the AR-15 comes with a dry lubricant which has to be applied to a dummy round inserted into the magazine. The magazine makes the rifle unwieldy and difficult to hold the forward hand guard.

 

Another factor against drum magazines is the price. You can buy a lot of stick magazines for the price of one drum. Look at the 100 round drum for the AR-15 it's about $250. You can buy a lot of stick magazines for that price and even have some change leftover for ammo.

[csspecs 1,987]

one type of DD is a firearm with a bore > .5 inch (10,12,16,20 and 28 gauges). The law states that shotguns are exempt from this status as they are deemed sporting. The Secretary of Treasury has the right to revoke the exemption, reinstating the DD designation, and has done so on 3 shotguns. The USAS12, Streetsweeper and the striker 12.

 

There was no exemption given to the USAS12, Streetsweeper, striker12. They never had anything that said they where OK to import and sell. In the case of the saiga it has been found to be sporting three times (KAL arms, EAA, RAA)

[RDSWriter 5]

The entire story behind the USAS12 reclassification is a bit more complex.... as is the Striker/Streetsweeper as well. I'll have to dig and find all the literature from years ago. I spent a couple weeks researching the web and contacting some of the actual personnnel involved in the manucture of these firearms.

 

Suffice to say, the previous comments pretty much sum it up. Also, remember that these DDs were reclassified by name... not a vague description. Case in point... go to Ameetec and buy a WM-12... it's not a DD (at least not yet).

 

Ameetec WM-12

 

Personally, I wouldn't ever buy one of these considering that you can buy 3 Tromix guns for the same price. But hey... different strokes for different folks.

 

Based on precedent and how the ATF justified reclassifying previous shotguns, I don't see the base S12 configuration - as it's currently imported - being reclassified any time soon.

Edited May 24, 2007 by RDSWriter

[kmoore 3]

one type of DD is a firearm with a bore > .5 inch (10,12,16,20 and 28 gauges). The law states that shotguns are exempt from this status as they are deemed sporting. The Secretary of Treasury has the right to revoke the exemption, reinstating the DD designation, and has done so on 3 shotguns. The USAS12, Streetsweeper and the striker 12.

 

There was no exemption given to the USAS12, Streetsweeper, striker12. They never had anything that said they where OK to import and sell. In the case of the saiga it has been found to be sporting three times (KAL arms, EAA, RAA)

 

I'll let RDS supply the details, I'm not as versed. But the exemption I refer to is allowing these firearms to be sold without DD status.

 

IOW, they had the sporting clause exemption that all other shotguns enjoy keeping them from largebore dd status. At a certain point in time, the secretary of treasury decided they were not sporting, which reverted them back to DD's.

 

I word it this convoluted way, so that we are all aware that the DD definition refers to bores > .5 inches and thereby covers 10ga, 12ga, 16ga, 20ga and 28ga shotguns. There is a sporting clause exemptions which keeps these legal to own. This applies to shotguns as a whole in a nameless fashion. So yes, these were never NAMED as being legal, they enjoyed that along with all other shotguns. That is the exemption that was removed from the 3 named DD's ...

 

I know, I can take a clear idea and muddy it up ...

 

I don't know about the importability of these 3, I never followed that part of the history.....

[csspecs 1,987]

Yes but the saiga 12 and 20 have been found to be sporting already. The makers and importers of the USAS 12 and others just thought that since it was a shotgun it was fine. The saiga is designed to be a sporting shotgun, the USAS and steetsweeper are clearly not.

[RDSWriter 5]

In short, I understand that the Daewoo product (USAS 12) and Striker were submitted to the ATF for importation purposes in the1980s, and the ATF denied their importation because they were deemed 'unsporting' and hence not approved for import. For a brief period of time, the Daewoo receiver, parts and barrel were imported because none (separately) were unsporting. Without a barrel... the receiver was importable because it did not have a caliber greater than .50 and did not meet the definition of an assault rifle without any features. Once stateside, they were assembled as SHOTGUNS............. remember this was prior to the 1994 ban and shotguns were not specified in the '89 ban.

 

If I remember correctly, only 'assault rifles' were impacted by the '89 ban - Mico UZIs, SP89s, Scorpions as well as plus-capacity Benellis and SPAS12s were still imported after the '89 ban. Then - CLINTON was elected. His Secretary of Treasury figured out a neat little trick to reclassify the USAS12 and Striker/Streetsweeper firearms. Since they were unsporting (as determined when the samples were submitted for import approval).... they could reclassify the shotguns as DDs. How.... because the NFA definitions do not differentiate between imported versus domestic. 922r may only apply for 'imported' firearms, but the NFA regs apply to ALL firearms. Therefore, since the firearm models and with their features were deemed unsporting... it didn't matter whether they were imported, assembled domestically or manufactured domestically.... THEY ARE ALL DDs. This is why I believe the Ameetec will be reclassified in the near future (e.g. at the latest after the next presidential election... but maybe sooner.)

 

The problem with the S12 series of shotguns lies in the S12Cs that were approved for importation and distribution to Military and Law Enforcement during the Clinton and AWB era. The 12C samples were submitted to the ATF with folding stocks and pistol grips and were approved for import for Military and Law Enforcement ONLY... BUT they were not deemed to be sufficiently unsporting to require them to be NFA via a DD status (like the USAS12 and Striker in the 1980s). I suspect that the ATF didn't care because the AWB suffiently prevented them from JohnQPublic from obtaining them... and it meant less paperwork for PDs wishing to acquire them. (In retrospect, I'm sure that they regret this determination... but they determined that S12Cs were NOT DDs.)

 

I'm not saying that the ATF will not change their determination in the future... I'm just relaying why they are in a pickle with regards to the S12 shotguns - even in a converted configuration. Their own precendent for 12C importation does not support DD status... not that that will stop them... but it does provide for a unique problem that they didn't have with the USAS12 and Striker series shotguns.

Edited May 25, 2007 by RDSWriter